FFXIV and Party Setup.

There was something rewarding about fitting your character to fill a specific role in FFXI. The ability to change some gear or re-arrange your rotation to fit a different niche within a party to get things done. But, seeing as FFXIV went down the 'dungeon roulette' way we are stuck with 1 Tank 1 Healer and 2 DPS. Where are the support classes? In every MMO I play, support is my go to. Corsair, Bard and Blue Mage from FFXI were so involved that everyone party I was in I would need to re-arrange who/when I had to buff the team.

Why are there no support classes? It seems rigid and non-flexible on a party makeup and individuality.

Increase the difficulty of all monsters/bosses by X amount and add in a 5th slot for a support role? Ofcourse at the moment I play a healer instead and the Astrologian does look like it could be the job i've been looking for. Just wondering what other people think about a lack of a support class and going for a 4 party standard model instead of 5 or 6.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arupopo

in FFXI.

---

This is another game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ultear_Milkovich

This is another game.

---

Sure is. Just wondering if anyone else liked to play Support classes and not an exact DPS/Healer/Tank Role.

But thanks for your contribution.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ultear_Milkovich

This is another game.

---

So it is!

Does that then mean that we can't find ways to improve it? To include play styles that deviate from the narrow WoW-Mentality of eat numbers, erase numbers or write numbers? Would that be okay?

Anyway, I personally would like to see more variety. I'd like to see support classes/jobs play more of a role in this game. But I'd also like to see current classes/jobs be opened up to not only fill one niche of the party makeup.


MMOs used to do a good job of this, it wasnt just FFXI that did it. There used to be need for CC (crowd control), a need for maintaining buffs or having buff/debuff classes that their sole job was to basically do that to enhance the party so the damager could do more damage so the tanks could take more damage so the healers could heal better or heal more. Then WoW happened and all the strategy, cooperation and synergy kind of fell away over time in favor of simple minded nuke fests, or nuke until something happens then click on something then nuke more. And so now many players think this is the only option.

This game does a little better job than that in most cases but it could still be improved. I'd like to see Summoners converted to more a support role or a higher versatility role. I'd like to see Bard split from Archer and give it more of an importance as it was in FFXI (yeah I know different game, so lets work backwards on things that were good) where it was one of those jobs that if you could get it in your party, then you better.

I would only like to see the implementation of a support role, if and only if, it can be interchangeable with another DPS. Support is yet another specialize task (alongside Tank and Healer) that does not attract a ton of players and as such, just like it did in XI, would increase queue times dramatically. I'm not sure they could balance it to the point where a DPS and a Support could be interchangeable without reworking most of the other classes/jobs as well. They were nice in XI, but waiting for hours for one to log on was hell.

I've been saying we need more diversity for months. The problem is that the mechanics of the game don't really support, well, supporting roles. If you made a job which was excellent at support, something would have to give. Whether that's their overall DPS, such as when Bard casts their songs, or survivability, you need to have some compromise or risk unbalancing them.

And compromise is one this game doesn't understand. Since so much of the game is intended to be beaten solo, too much sacrifice will make content unintentionally difficult to complete for those classes or jobs. You only need look at endgame equipment to understand that this game does its best to maintain the status-quo at all times. Each upgrade indistinguishable from the last aside from a mild boost to the same stats.

I'd love some more options myself, but I don't see it fitting in with the current game model. They'd have to give the game a major facelift to work it in, and I'm not convinced it wouldn't cause more problems than it would solve.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arupopo

Where are the support classes?

---

Have you done much of endgame?

Everything is designed very... efficiently. From abilities to encounters themselves. Everything has its specific place. This sort of system has its own elegance but, in short, there's no room for something like "support" classes.

To elaborate slightly... games like EQ, FFXI, and similar MMOs... they're more like a battle sandbox. Here is world. Here are various enemies, some of them very tough. Here are the abilities you can choose from. Figure out a way to beat it.

Not so with modern era MMOs. There is a prescribed way to defeat the MMO's encounters. Use X and Y abilities at Z time to handle mechanic A. Do something else to handle mechanic B, and C, and so on. All the while, meet this minimum DPS threshold and dodge telegraphs. All carefully balanced. Don't virus and shield that tankbuster and the tank dies. Use a nonoptimal rotation, don't make the DPS check and the party wipes. And so on.

No room for dedicated support classes here, see?

The closest we get are support healers, like SCH and perhaps the coming Astrologian. Machinist sounds like it will be relatively support heavy... another BRD if you will, but still a DPS before anything else. But that just means their spend their off time DPSing. And DPS with a few abilities here and there. MNK's dragon kick, chant, various BRD things, and so on.

Support classes create a rather troubling dynamic: They tend to be terrible at soloing compared to other classes.
DPS classes blast everything to kingdom come before they take too much damage.
Tanks just sit there and take hits while doling out some damage til everything dies.
Healers are able to basically do what tanks do in a more active means.
But support classes? They can't deal damage like the DPS classes, can't take hits like the tank, and can't restore their own health like the healers.
But what does this mean?
Easy.
It means they're less popular than even the tanks.
Now you have to build encounters around them.
And have slots for them in the queues.
So you have options:
1) Design encounters with Support in mind as a role, and deal with player complaints of the queues being too long (not to mention taking longer since the Support will do less damage)
2) Design encounters to not take them into account and allow it to be flexible, which means the encounters are now much more dull to take into account that groups may not always have a support.

So rather than building support classes, our DPS classes have support options.
Remember: This is not FFXI. And after playing it quite a bit recently, I'm glad for that.

if you take any EX trial or coil fight it will be difficult to insert a support job inside. Esp. before the echo nerfs. Competitive content really needs the trinity to cut it. Same with 4 man dungeons will you replace the tank, the healer or go with a solo dps?

And in PVP well... lol

Could work with 24 man "raids" but outside of this i dont see any use for a support job. I mean a real support with pretty much no dps, not like the bard.

Rift had "support" as a dedicated party role, and it was pretty great. Especially as nobody liked doing it so you basically got to play as DPS but with much smaller queue times :) Depending on what particular fights required you could focus on buff/debuffs, AOE healing or damage, and if you built your character right you could still put out pretty good DPS while performing your support role, and soloing was never much of a problem. The main problem was that in terms of buffs/debuffs, their usefulness scaled based on party size, so in small groups it was debatable whether it was a benefit, but they were pretty much essential in full raid content - however you never really needed more than one because all their effects were raid-wide.

However, it kind of needs things to be balanced around from the beginning, not just bolted on later. The entire party balance in FFXIV is designed around groups of 4 or multiples thereof, with a 2:1:1 mix of DPS:heals:tanks. You can't just drop a DPS slot and turn it into support without needing to rebalance pretty much every encounter to account for lower group DPS, and conversely you can't increase party sizes to 5 to allow for a support role without accounting for higher DPS.

This is not FFXI, and I am so very glad that SE decided to share support abilities across many other classes, from tank, dps to healer. Otherwise, DF would be beyond terrible with the waiting time for support to join. If you think tank and healer are already hard to find, wait till they add support on the mix. It would be near impossible for any DPS to do their daily duty roulette. The way the game function now, all classes can contribute to buff and debuffs abilities. DPS are not just spam attack buttons but you MUST understand how your class is played. No need for full time support job in this game, ever...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Luvbunny

DPS are not just spam attack buttons but you MUST understand how your class is played.

---

Not really. I mean, sure it'll benefit you to know your rotations, but 'MUST' implies you simply cannot DPS without them, which is an outright falsity. You can DPS just fine, just not as well as those using optimal rotations.

Actually, that word 'rotation' brings up the one thing which dulls this game more so than other MMO's of it's type and is the very REASON why support jobs would be a benefit more than a detriment. Every gods-forsaken player is tasked with doing the same thing as every other player of the same class. There's very little, if any, wiggle room. You're a monk? Great. Use those very specific combos in that very specific order in those very specific positions. You're a Dragoon? Great. Use those very specific combos in that very specific order in those...

...you see the point? If not, well those rose-tinted shades must be welded on by now. We need something to break up the status-quo and add some dynamic options to the game. One of the reasons I tank and heal more than DPS is because it's a bit more unpredictable (the other is queue times). But even those fall foul of routine after the hundredth dungeon run.

Of course, because it would break up the status-quo is the exact reason we're never likely to see it. SE seem intent on keeping things rather vanilla throughout when they should be focusing on adding more flavours to the game at this point. Hopefully Heavenward will shake things up and get the ball rolling in the right direction.

What the game needs to do is add more support abilities for all current classes.

A pure trinity of DPS, Tank, Healer for everything is extremely limiting. I for one would welcome the addition of support style classes. Giving DDs a support ability is not the same. The support class is an entire style of gameplay that was removed from XIV.

If you gave say mnk more support abilities... their main job is still a Damage Dealer.... not a support. Alot of people do not want to be a DD/Healer/Tank they want to be support. Try going brd into final coil and put all the focus into the support role and hit 60-100dps and watch how quick your party kicks you out for being "Subpar". It is what people do not understand, combining multiple job types into 1 job is a BAD THING!!!

SE just needs to make it where support classes are NOT needed to clear content so the ques do not go crazy long. This is another huge issue with finder... it forces this strict dd, tank, healer crap. IT is what was great about older mmos you could actually accomplish things with many variations of setups.

AS for support jobs having a harder time solo... who cares, you have chocobos. WHM is already subpar to Smn when it comes to soloing do not see them complaining.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimboTCB

Rift had "support" as a dedicated party role, and it was pretty great. Especially as nobody liked doing it so you basically got to play as DPS but with much smaller queue times :)

---

I miss my days as a beastmaster support type job in rift. No one really liked playing it but it had some nice buffs. The one that gave the entire raid 30% extra health was pretty nice and etc.
When i started to out dps the normal dps, the raid leader would yell at them: "Dammit! The support job is kicking your arse, step it up!"

LOL

Machinist is planned as a Support/DPS job

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xatsh

WHM is already subpar to Smn when it comes to soloing do not see them complaining.

---

DPS job have it always easier with soloing than healers

Even during 1.0, while Tanaka was still on board, there was no pure support class. Sure, it was possible to build something like a support class with cross skills, but there was no support class at default. Like in ARR every class had their own handfull support skills.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felis

Machinist is planned as a Support/DPS job

---

Specifically a "DPS job with support"
Which means they'll be bards with guns and robots instead of bows and music. An over generalization, but that's the basic idea.
They toss a bunch of support abilities on the ranged melee classes to compensate for the fact that they need to neuter their DPS to keep them "competitive" with melee and caster DPS. RPGs do this a lot and it gets kind of perplexing when a dude deals more damage punching someone in the face than someone else does shooting them with a gun.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

What the game needs to do is add more support abilities for all current classes.

---

This is DEFINITELY going to be happening, as it's easier to add new support toys to classes than to interfere with the attack chains.
I'm calling it now: People will be complaining about the lack of new attack abilities for certain classes in 3.0. BRD will likely get new attacks and BLM is already stated to be getting an overhaul (mostly due to being so streamlined they can't add anything meaningful to the class), but expect DRG, MNK, and WAR to get new support abilities (with WAR getting a new CD and something else to use with Defiance up)

And here we go again, people don't seem to understand that the classes and jobs are balanced around end game i,e coil now and Alexander in heavensward, support based classes as someone said means something has to give and usually a fight must have a support or doesn't which renders the ROLE useless.

Having a fight that must require a support is horrible, not in terms of content design but for recruitment, every mmo I have played, a dedicated support was the rarest to find, more so then a tank.

If you do not need a support, then why bother, a group that takes end game properly wont take a useless role.

'IT is what was great about older mmos you could actually accomplish things with many variations of setups.'

And those games have very basic fights and unbalanced classes and boring structure in the fights, they don't allow for more complex mechanics that allows all classes to be viable in the content.

[QUOTE=raelgun;2886234]snip [QUOTE]

""" bu... but in FFXI / VIII / Pong / who cares / we did have support roles then we need one in ARR! ""

This is a right answer. Those FF14 fights are designed to be very dynamic and challenging with no room for a support class. I speak about 8 man end game content. In 24 man you could probably queue as a Goldsmith so whatever... and outside of raid activites support jobs will be hard to include into 4 man dungeons, PvP and solo stuff.

This is probably why SE split the support activities between the other jobs making them way more interesting. This is regardless of what you got in 15 years old outdated games - thanks God

One of the major issues with a support class is the 4/8 man party structure. How do you make a support class strong enough to not hold down a 4 man run, but not ungodly overpowered in an 8 man?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by raelgun

And those games have very basic fights and unbalanced classes and boring structure in the fights, they don't allow for more complex mechanics that allows all classes to be viable in the content.

---

Complex mechanics? Since when? FFXIV is probably the simplest of the MMO's I've played. Telegraphed attacks allow you to move out of the way in advance, boss fights are more of a memory game than actual skill-based combat and all hints at complexity vanish into the ether when you're faced with a crowd of 'trash mobs' and just gather them into one big pile to blow up.

If you think that equates to complex, then don't play FFXI. Enemies of equal level were powerhouses capable of tearing apart all but the mightiest of solo classes. Each individual trash enemy often had its own unique mechanics to be concerned about as well, and they were not always telegraphed or predictable. Anyone who has felt the force of a goblin bomb misfire will know that agony.

Now, I will agree that not all classes are great in all content in FFXI. But then, not all classes are great in all FFXIV content either. There has already been much talk about Summoner being considered under-powered versus Black Mages or how Monks basically rule the melee scene. When it comes to large groups of mobs, Warrior tends to have a better time keeping aggro over Paladin due to Overpower, and when there's a boss which hits hard, Paladin has a commanding presence over Warrior.

The problem with trying to make all jobs equal is that they ultimately become a grey meaningless sludge indistinguishable from any other class. Having superiority in one area or another doesn't necessarily have to make that job more favored as long as the balance remains by weakening them in other types of content. That, more than any other reason, is why I love the idea of support classes.

Though I admit it would be difficult to fit it into FFXIV given the current game landscape, I also feel the game needs to change if it wants to stay fun and relevant. There's only so much grey sludge you can be fed before it becomes boring which is why there's so much hope for Heavensward. We've grown tired of our sludge and want something with a bit more flavour.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemuria

Complex mechanics? Since when?

---

One question, have you cleared final coil without buying clears or getting boosted in T5, T9 and T13?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kyuven

.So you have options:
1) Design encounters with Support in mind as a role, and deal with player complaints of the queues being too long (not to mention taking longer since the Support will do less damage)
2) Design encounters to not take them into account and allow it to be flexible, which means the encounters are now much more dull to take into account that groups may not always have a support.

---

The other issue that *will* arise is that as people overgear content, the need for a support class disappears as players begin ignoring mechanics that otherwise might need support to mitigate. Personally I hate the way people ignore mechanics, but then I am a relatively undergeared tank who can't quite ignore things the way that others can.

While I personally don't mind having a support role, I can appreciate meshing the support aspect it into a DPS class that has slightly lower DPS with higher support options. Add a "fourth" support role will just exasperate the queue situation as for every one person who enjoys playing support, there will be at least 10-20 other people who just want to SMASH THAT MONSTERS FACE IN (DPS).

If queues went to 1 Tank / Healer / DPS / Support the wait times for DPS would become atrocious.
If dungeons would be altered to be 1 Tank / 1 Healer / 1 Support / 2 DPS, I could see it working out but I anticipate there will be three "bottlenecks" now instead of two.

Even in XI, parties would be held up on "support". BRD, COR, RDM were treasured and hard to come by for leveling during the 75-era. Shout groups for Tojil would bottle neck at finding a 3-4 song BRD and they would be shouting for HOURS just to get one of these.

In XIV, you even see it here with PuG PFs for Coil - most parties hang when trying to get tanks, healers, and Bards (the closest thing we'd get to a support class in the current iteration of this game)

While I would like to see the role itself, I don't think it'll mesh well with the current structure of the game.

With the being said, let's wait to see what Heavensward brings. S-E has put Machinist down as a DPS/Support hybrid like Bard and Astrologian has the potential to be a support based healer based on the fact they have card buffs. If they continue this route of "roles that have more support abilities than normal", it would fit the game format better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by raelgun

One question, have you cleared final coil without buying clears or getting boosted in T5, T9 and T13?

---

I'm not sure he's even done recent EX primals. I mean he uses trash mobs as his comparison of XI and XIV xD

I don't really care for the idea of adding support. I love how the game has been balanced, and I love that EVERY class has the means to DPS, and every class has a means to support the team. I don't want that balance to be undone and I'm happy with the current composition of our parties.

Beside the lack of support abilities overall, I hate more the dps. Specially the mnks and mantra, I hardly see any mnk using it. Sure u may say is not needed to survive but it really helps. How I see it healers and tanks would benefit the most with new support abilities but the dps would hardy use them.

I think "pure" support could be pretty cool... I just don't see it fitting in XIV.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kyuven

Support classes create a rather troubling dynamic: They tend to be terrible at soloing compared to other classes.
<snip>
So rather than building support classes, our DPS classes have support options.
Remember: This is not FFXI. And after playing it quite a bit recently, I'm glad for that.

---

But FFXI had the premier example of a support class that could also be a great soloer: Red Mage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Conradus

But FFXI had the premier example of a support class that could also be a great soloer: Red Mage.

---

RDM solo was only for show/prestige. It wasn't efficient by any remote stretch of the means when everything of value took 30min+ to defeat, via a variety of methods, some of which abuse faults in the game engine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Conradus

But FFXI had the premier example of a support class that could also be a great soloer: Red Mage.

---

But this game is not FFXI.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ultear_Milkovich

But this game is not FFXI.

---

Quick, keep telling people this isn't FFXI!

Believe me, we're fully aware. People are allowed to make references to what ever game they want. You know why most compare this to FFXI? Because its the only other Final Fantasy MMO. Final Fantasy XI has become the most profitable title in the Final Fantasy series for a reason. They must have done something right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wylantar

Quick, keep telling people this isn't FFXI!

Believe me, we're fully aware. People are allowed to make references to what ever game they want. You know why most compare this to FFXI? Because its the only other Final Fantasy MMO. Final Fantasy XI has become the most profitable title in the Final Fantasy series for a reason. They must have done something right.

---

SE is trying to make something fresh and new with FF14 and so far they are doing just great even tho if a lot of things can be improved still.

So yeah all the "bu... but in FFXI we had X or Y where is it now? " is just useless whining for people who cant deal with 2015. You know, like the grandparents who keep repeating that things were better before. If FFXI is so awesome compared to ARR then why are these persons here? Time to refresh yourself a bit. You cant lifeve forever in PS2-era gameplay/design.

Perhaps Machinist is in response to so many requesting support jobs? Astrologian might be rather support oriented as well. We don't really know much yet.

But anyways... yes, we might not get it as a dedicated role a la some other MMOs, but there's BRD and it seems the devs are adding more, as much as such can fit in XIV anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xatsh

WHM is already subpar to Smn when it comes to soloing do not see them complaining.

---

Have you LOOKED at the DPS forums? That's all we summoners do is complain, ad it largely goes unheard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ultear_Milkovich

SE is trying to make something fresh and new with FF14 and so far they are doing just great even tho if a lot of things can be improved still.

So yeah all the "bu... but in FFXI we had X or Y where is it now? " is just useless whining for people who cant deal with 2015. You know, like the grandparents who keep repeating that things were better before. If FFXI is so awesome compared to ARR then why are these persons here? Time to refresh yourself a bit. You cant lifeve forever in PS2-era gameplay/design.

---

On some things yes, they've improved. Other things they've traveled backwards through time. It's not about whining, it's about seeing more improvement come to the game and not just white knighting pretending everything is fine when there is ALWAYS room for improvement. Simplifying group mechanics and synergy down to three archaic group roles that most games in development today are trying to break free of is not improvement. You want to talk about being stuck in time? This hard trinity concept is about as 2004 as you can get. You can thank brainless game concepts designed for simple-minded people for that, and by that I mean Blizzard.

It really doesn't matter whether or not FFXI had it and that this isn't FFXI. If it's a good idea it should at least be brought up in hope that it might add to the game. You know else this game isn't? It isn't Rift, but it has Fates which are the evolved concept of rifts in that game, it also isn't Guild Wars 2 but fates sure resemble their active events. It also isn't World of Warcraft but you have markers indicating a quest giver and when the quest is completed, you also have NPC rep grinding which was also very popular there as well, battlegrounds too. It's also not Everquest but you have raids and dungeons. This game isn't FFXI but you can certainly play every job on the same character, has essentially the exact same races and many of the same jobs. It isn't a lot of other games that support it but we're getting flying mounts. FFXIV isn't everquest 2, World of Warcraft, or many other games but it has taxi services... Need I continue?

Or maybe, stop worrying about what this game isn't and start thinking about what it could be. You say yourself that things could still be improved but all I see you saying is "This isn't FFXI" whenever someone brings up something they liked there that they think could improve FFXIV. So what then do you think can be improved? What are your ideas or suggestions? things you'd like to see in FFXIV?

I'd love to see dedicated support classes here. But the thing is, that isn't just a FFXI thing. That's an gaming in general thing that has lost it's place. Is it old? Yep but a lot of things in this game are old concepts. Raiding and running dungeons is about as old as the genre itself. Having tanks and healers too. Having levels and stats are older than that. Quests is nothing new. Multiple jobs/classes on the same character goes back as far as FFXI if not further, hell D&D did that. Does that mean we shouldn't want any of that if we didn't have it because it's 2015?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Havenae

snip

---

no matter what you say or post, this game wont change its mechanics already built in. No changing it. It's a done deal. Either deal with the system we were given or go to a game that has it. I miss a ton of stuff from 1.0 but I'm never going to see that ever again.

Not trying to be rude but expecting any change this far into release and with an upcoming expansion is fruitless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Havenae

snip

---

Funny that you mention wow and its trinity, its raiding experience is pretty good, and far better then Rift who has a support class, and far better then what FF11 had for raiding content, the mechanics were finely tuned in the normal and hard modes. The tuning is possible due to having the trinity, what people are suggesting in this thread is not an improvement but making the design even worse and a watered down experience in the raiding.

The trinity allows for more indepth mechanics to take place in the content and harder raids as they can actually take account for the classes skills that are in place and no class is deemed useless, FF11 had a lot of classes which were considered worthless and no one wanted them in their groups by design, FF14 and WOW has no such thing, every class in its role is viable.

Also support classes either means having a fight require a support or having the fight faceroll/deeming the role useless, support classes are not a good thing or fun for that matter, theres a reason why so few people played them and difficulty had nothing to do with it, its boring.