Fey Light in FCoB

Hello healers, I have one question about Selene's usage in FCoB.

When my static were at T11, they asked me to put Selene away because her Skill Speed buff was too much for our DPS, Monk specifically. After a while I realised that it must be due to TP draining and the Bard having to play Paeon more frequently to compensate.

However, what I want to know is has anyone actually calculated the impact it would have on overall party DPS? Or does anyone have a more in-depth reason for why Fey Light should not be used?
While I can understand the Skill Speed buff will alter the way the Bard has to play, it still doesn't seem right that such a significant buff would actually cause problems rather than more DPS output. And surely it's still right to use Selene when farming FCoB?

(I saw a similar thread to this in the DPS section, but they were talking about dungeons. This thread is specifically for FCoB, as I see no reason to not use Selene in any other content.)

At the end of the Day there is no true answer ....

I use Eos because I'm in cleric like 85% of the time now in FcOB ...so I figure the plus 20% heals to the WHM on top of a 500 tick whispering dawn every minute help the WHM Heal a lot easier while I focus more of the DPS aspect of our job. Selene is very useful and if healing is a non issue I would suggest using her unless you plan on dpsing ...her heal out put is viable but you lose 20% raw healing ability on top of AOE HoT heals with Selene in the picture....Fey Illumination x Whispering Dawn + Rouse has saved a wipe from missed towers on a many occasion as the tick is on par with the bleeding on top of a WHM Illumination + Medica II so Eos is very viable option even while farming.

Selene's usage in FCoB does have an impact on the overall party DPS, however, if you don't have a ninja to goad your physical dps it would ultimately serve as a dps loss as your bard would have to play paeon, instead of playing foe.

As a SCH, you could be dpsing the boss or add while having eos assisting your WHM with the healing with fey illumination/whispering dawn and putting out, ultimately, more dps than Selene impacts to the raid-wide dps while YOU the SCH is assisting with the heals. Since in the end, your bard would have to sing paeon longer and sooner due to the faster cooldown usage of invigorate, hastily decreasing raid wide dps - since as I have mention, could've been singing foe to increase magical damage.

Depends on your raid group's overall DPS and people's gearing preferences (ie. the amount of SKSP someone has) as well as the group composition. Having a NIN of course helps with the TP a bit.

That being said, I perma-Selene everything in general. When everyone but the WHM in your raid group are doing 300+ DPS on all turns but T13, the encounters become so goddamn short you don't need to do long TP songs anyway. T12 and T13 have some forced down time for TP ticks anyway (T12: P2 to P3 transition and the plume phases. T13: each Megaflare Dive set and Teraflare countdown - the latter becomes a full-fledged picnic).

TP songs to keep the ball rolling don't cut down the BRD's DPS enough for Selene to not be worth it. My raiding group doesn't have a NIN in it.

Yeah the whole selene >bard paeons more > less foe's > lower overall dps is just bonkers and is kind of farfetched.

This monk of yours is he stacking skill speed? if he is and it's just him going dry early. could they consider less SkS, more det/crit.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

Snip.

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TP is a tricky thing. Even though it regenerates more than MP during combat, it can't ever be made higher than 1000. So they have to rely on Invigorate, (possibly Goad if they're lucky), that natural regeneration, and Paeon.

When a TP using DPS has too much skill speed, sure they can get damage out quicker, but without many ways to restore their TP and the natural regeneration unable to keep up with the increased output of skills, they might find themselves TP spent.

They rely on that natural TP regeneration a lot more than us DoM classes realize. I didn't understand that myself until I started playing Bard and somehow managed to get myself full i110 with nothing but Skill Speed. Ugh.

It is mathematically impossible for 0 cost haste to ever be a dps loss. You don't have to play peon. you can just postpone your attacks for tp.
Even if the dps sit there and don't attack because your they are completely out of tp, you still did the same number of abilities (at a minimum per time). Chances are you did more abilities than without the haste, and more within buff timers (if your good), so in the real world it is always dps gain.

The potential for loss comes at the opportunity cost of not using eos, which makes a dps loss is possible (per the amount of dps the SCH/WHM do). However, it is highly unlikely to ever be a loss, and far outside the realm of understanding for most individuals.

The only reason I see to consider holding back on fey light is if you want your TP-based DPS to not be starved at specific moment in the fight, i.e. on adds spawn or other phases like that where you need everyone to be able to perform at 100%.

I have been asking this in the DPS section to get a deeper insight in the impact on TP usage and possible change of rotations a higher Skill or SpellSpeed can introduce, maybe that is a factor for some players.

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Originally Posted by Staris

It is mathematically impossible for 0 cost haste to ever be a dps loss. You don't have to play peon. you can just postpone your attacks for tp.
Even if the dps sit there and don't attack because your they are completely out of tp, you still did the same number of abilities (at a minimum per time). Chances are you did more abilities than without the haste, and more within buff timers (if your good), so in the real world it is always dps gain.

The potential for loss comes at the opportunity cost of not using eos, which makes a dps loss is possible (per the amount of dps the SCH/WHM do). However, it is highly unlikely to ever be a loss, and far outside the realm of understanding for most individuals.

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That is pretty much it, and to put it simply "the damage has already been dealt" and it's always a DPS gain. It does help to have a NIN or DPS that can use Invigorate at the right time for those heavy phases like T11 adds.

I use selene as we have a NIN, but even then our MNK doesnt call for Goad we dont play AP except for transitional phases, is he popping invig at right times?

Just put Eos on and dps yourself. That way you can still help the whm with Some heals here and there. I don't know About the while to thing. Ofcourse you burn mana, tP quicker. But the fight becomes shorter as well. I think it's having to much dps in certain situations and phases. At least I think that is what they mean.

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Originally Posted by Staris

It is mathematically impossible for 0 cost haste to ever be a dps loss.

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This is pretty much 100% wrong.

It is patently obvious that increasing haste CAN lead to dps loss IF you run out of TP. Obviously if you never run out of TP, then increased haste is a dps increase, but since we're having this conversation, that means you are running out of TP.

In every rotation there are efficient TP spenders (usually: DoTs) and there are inefficient TP spenders. Generally speaking the most efficient TP spenders are on cooldown. Therefore, increasing the amount of attacks per "efficient TP spender CD" will lower your overall efficiency. Are we agreed on that?

Now, lets look at the other facts.

1. TP regen is static. Whether you use invigorate, goad, paeon etc, your TP gain regardless of haste is constant. This is obvious, because nothing reduces those cooldowns.

2. Regardless of how fast you spend your TP, IF you ever spend all of your TP, your "TP used per second" is identical regardless of how fast or when you ran out of TP.

3. Since total TP usage (assuming you run out of TP) is constant once you run out of TP, the constraint on your dps is no longer actions/section aka DPCT but rather DPTP.

4. Since total dps is dependant on DPTP, the higher TP efficiency will win out.

5. Since established before, TP efficiency goes down with haste, haste can definitely result in lower dps.

The painfully obvious solution is to have haste increase resource generation as well, but obviously that would make too much sense, and I'm happy (no I'm not) to see SE hasn't changed anything over the past year and a half since this idea was first proposed.

EDIT: One thing that I did not note, however, is the possibility of getting increased damage out of a cooldown, if you are able to squeeze in 1 more ability during a cooldown's duration. Suffice to say, generally speaking this doesn't happen enough for it to overcome the burden of heavily increased TP spending.

As a monk who usually runs FCoB with a NIN and BRD, I welcome our selene overlord(ess').

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

This is pretty much 100% wrong.

It is patently obvious that increasing haste CAN lead to dps loss IF you run out of TP. Obviously if you never run out of TP, then increased haste is a dps increase, but since we're having this conversation, that means you are running out of TP.
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wrong

Your in ability to understand math is astonishing.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

- SNIP - so much wrong cannot quote

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:Facepalm:

Haste affects GCDs/min not efficiency. TP costs are not altered therefore TP efficiency is fixed on only differs from job to job and their respective optimal damage rotation. In a vacuum, differing gcds all other factors constant spending, 1000 tp in 4 min vs. spending 1000 tp in 3min followed 1 min of doing absolutely nothing would result in the same exact Dps.

Edit: and what the heck are DPCTP and DPTP?

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

This is pretty much 100% wrong.

It is patently obvious that increasing haste CAN lead to dps loss IF you run out of TP. Obviously if you never run out of TP, then increased haste is a dps increase, but since we're having this conversation, that means you are running out of TP.

In every rotation there are efficient TP spenders (usually: DoTs) and there are inefficient TP spenders. Generally speaking the most efficient TP spenders are on cooldown. Therefore, increasing the amount of attacks per "efficient TP spender CD" will lower your overall efficiency. Are we agreed on that?

Now, lets look at the other facts.

1. TP regen is static. Whether you use invigorate, goad, paeon etc, your TP gain regardless of haste is constant. This is obvious, because nothing reduces those cooldowns.

2. Regardless of how fast you spend your TP, IF you ever spend all of your TP, your "TP used per second" is identical regardless of how fast or when you ran out of TP.

3. Since total TP usage (assuming you run out of TP) is constant once you run out of TP, the constraint on your dps is no longer actions/section aka DPCT but rather DPTP.

4. Since total dps is dependant on DPTP, the higher TP efficiency will win out.

5. Since established before, TP efficiency goes down with haste, haste can definitely result in lower dps.

The painfully obvious solution is to have haste increase resource generation as well, but obviously that would make too much sense, and I'm happy (no I'm not) to see SE hasn't changed anything over the past year and a half since this idea was first proposed.

EDIT: One thing that I did not note, however, is the possibility of getting increased damage out of a cooldown, if you are able to squeeze in 1 more ability during a cooldown's duration. Suffice to say, generally speaking this doesn't happen enough for it to overcome the burden of heavily increased TP spending.

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The reason haste can't lead to theoretical dps loss on an optimally played class is that you can simulate not having it by just not pushing your buttons as often.

In practice, while I admit the urge to smashy smash is often hard to supress, a good player will notice they are running low on TP and cut out their least TP efficient attacks (usually one run of the base combo, though for monks it's slowing down their rotation so they don't lose GL stacks). Since every point of TP you don't spend on TP inefficient attacks late in a fight probably corresponds to a point you spent on those same TP inefficient attacks earlier in the fight, it ends up likely being DPS neutral at worst and likely a small DPS gain at best since, as you mentioned, getting more attacks in buff windows is a DPS gain.

Also (and this isn't directed at you Panda), note that while Fey Light is theoretically at worst DPS neutral for TP classes, Fey Glow isn't the same for MP classes, specifically because of BLM. They benefit from burning through resources faster so they can generate more of them. Kinda useless for SMN though.

no, the reason haste is never a DPS lost is that if you staying around and waiting for tp your dmg is lower, yes. but while you are on haste your damage is higher. in the end it is the exact same damage with or without haste. but with haste your damage CAN be higher...

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Originally Posted by Aurelinaus

:Facepalm:

Haste affects GCDs/min not efficiency. TP costs are not altered therefore TP efficiency is fixed on only differs from job to job and their respective optimal damage rotation. In a vacuum, differing gcds all other factors constant spending, 1000 tp in 4 min vs. spending 1000 tp in 3min followed 1 min of doing absolutely nothing would result in the same exact Dps.

Edit: and what the heck are DPCTP and DPTP?

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What PBC (PandaBearCat) is saying is that since your most TP efficient abilities tend to be DoTs of fixed durations that aren't impacted by haste, as your haste increases these abilities become smaller proportions of your damage. This is fine if you don't run out of TP, because you are still using them as often as possible. However, if you DO run out of TP and have to delay them to wait for a TP tick, you are losing damage that you wouldn't be if you hadn't TP starved yourself. Theoretically this shouldn't happen (because you can just slow your pace down to your unhasted levels), but if you hit a button every time you can and as a result run out of TP, it's a possibility.

DpCT is short for Damage per Cast Time. It's how much damage something does versus how long it takes to execute. Holy (200 potency) does more damage than Stone II (170 potency) to a single target, but because Holy takes 20% longer to cast and only does about 17% more damage, it's less DpCT to a single target. (This is just an example because I know the potency and cast times off the top of my head, please don't Holy single targets without a damn good reason) For any ability which is instant but on the GCD, you use your GCD as the cast time, because that's how long it locks you out of doing other stuff. There's a little more nuance in here for off GCDs and abilities which animation lock you, but the basic idea is damage per time spent executing. It's not quite the same as DPS because some abilities - DoTs - have way better DpCT than they do DPS. If I do 1 damage per potency, and a DoT does 300 potency over 10 seconds, it's only 30 DPS but 300 DpCT.

DpTP is much simpler. It's just damage per TP spent. An attack that does 200 damage for 100 TP has better DpTP than one that does 400 damage for 400 TP.

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Originally Posted by Tint

no, the reason haste is never a DPS lost is that if you staying around and waiting for tp your dmg is lower, yes. but while you are on haste your damage is higher. in the end it is the exact same damage with or without haste. but with haste your damage CAN be higher...

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It's not, though. If you are losing uptime on your most efficient abilities, you do less damage per TP.

Let's put it this way:

I'm a Ninja. I Mutilate x number of times over a fight. Mutilate costs 80 TP.

You are also a Ninja in my same party. You run out of TP a few times over the course of a fight, so you get off 2 less Mutilates because you are waiting for TP ticks and can't reapply it right away, and of course you don't want to clip it because that would be dumb. This means you spend 160 less TP on Mutilate, but since we are in the same fight and swapping Goads like the awesome Ninja brethren we are, that means you have 160 more TP for other, non-Mutilate things. What do you spend that 160 TP on that gives you as much damage as 2 Mutilates do?

The answer is you don't, because the Ninja doesn't possess any attacks that both cost TP and do as much damage per TP spent as Mutilate. It's not just how much TP you spend, it's what you spend it on. That is why in practice haste can lead to a dps loss, because you use too much Aeolian Edge and not enough Mutilate.

I say again, theoretically and even in practice with merely decent play, haste is a DPS increase or at worst neutral. But to say spending 1000 TP in 3 minutes is the same as spending 1000 TP in 4 minutes, or to say it doesn't matter when you spend it, is to neglect the fact that some abilities are limited more by time than they are by TP.

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Originally Posted by Menae

It's not, though. If you are losing uptime on your most efficient abilities, you do less damage per TP.

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buut if you use the same abilities while on haste... >.> you do more damage per time.

You could, like someone suggested, simply do nothing during the haste to "simulate" lower haste. But...like...what is the point of the haste buff then...?

Essentially, what it boils down to is, if you ever run out of TP, skill speed is utterly worthless to you, unless it facilitates some mechanical timer sync (such as maybe going through your buff rotations tighter). So at best it does...nothing. This includes static skill speed.

The simplest explanation I can give for those that doubt the math is...

1. Everyone starts with 1000 TP.
2. Everyone regens TP at the same speed.
3. At any given time the maximum amount of TP you can spend is 1000+TP/sec
4. Once you "run out of TP", regardless of how fast you've run out of TP (whether it took 1 sec or 1000 sec), your total TP consumption is 1000+TP/sec
5. At this point, your damage is (1000+TP/sec)*(DPTP, or TP efficiency)
6. Therefore your damage done is dependent only on TP efficiency, NOT dps or haste.

I also want to clarify I'm not advocating whether Fey Light or not is "better". I'm simply clarifying that it is definitely possible to lose dps with more haste, if you end up using lower TP efficient abilities.

Guys if you remember...this is literally the main reason monks/dragoons etc. of old stopped using Fracture and Impulse Drive...while a technical dps increase it simply wasn't efficient enough to use.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

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The issue with your argument is that you assume the same rotation at completely drained TP the person is spamming an ability every 3 seconds with that TP tick, in the same rotation they would be using with full TP.

Yes, blind button mash in preprogrammed order will be a dps loss at tapped out TP, but it can be a modest gain from that extra buffed hit.

Yes I mentioned this as well. You gain an extra attack in a cooldown window roughly every 14-15% haste. Unclear whether that impact is worth the amount of TP efficiency lost from well, doing more abilities outside of that.

If you play what we'll assume is "smartly" and pool TP for cooldown phases, then its still a wash, and imo delaying your CDs to line up with fey light is probably not worth it unless it is less than a few seconds.

Haste is never a dps loss, and the reason drg and monk don't use fracture is it doesn't really fit into our rotation without messing up our own buff/debuff/dot timers. Plus it is less potency/tp than our other abilities. If you do become TP starved, you should be focusing on keeping dots ticking anyway until invig/goad is ready.

Haste also means you burst more so can push phases faster.

SCH pets have their place AND time. IIRC on our T11 static from way back when, our sch would have Selene out until only we started DPSing on the EGG, then he'd SC Eos out for the extra magic mitigation on first cloud, and the rest of the fight. On T10 he also switched Selene to Eos after 2nd adds to buffer.

Well actually with increased skill speed going from 1000 to 0 is less attacks. Every 3 seconds you recover 60 tp. So if at 4 minutes you use all your tp then you just used 5800 tp (1000base + 4800[ 4min= 240secs ÷ 3 sec x 60tp per tick] excluding invig cause it doesn't affect the point I'm making) vs 4600 in only 3 minutes. Now if the monk sits there tp starved until 4 minutes then he did the same amount of attacks and damage and what was the point of using selene at all then.
the bard has to be willing to play paeon when needed to make it a dps increase or the boss/enemy needs to die before tp is depleted. Almost forgot, or use to help with a dps check/push a phase.

Long story short, your getting in more attacks in less time which means in that time you have gained less natural tp ticks, so less tp to use overall

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Originally Posted by alsims2007

Well actually with increased skill speed going from 1000 to 0 is less attacks. Every 3 seconds you recover 60 tp. So if at 4 minutes you use all your tp then you just used 5800 tp (1000base + 4800[ 4min= 240secs ÷ 3 sec x 60tp per tick] excluding invig cause it doesn't affect the point I'm making) vs 4600 in only 3 minutes. Now if the monk sits there tp starved until 4 minutes then he did the same amount of attacks and damage and what was the point of using selene at all then.
the bard has to be willing to play paeon when needed to make it a dps increase or the boss/enemy needs to die before tp is depleted. Almost forgot, or use to help with a dps check/push a phase.

Long story short, your getting in more attacks in less time which means in that time you have gained less natural tp ticks, so less tp to use overall

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1. You cannot compare 4 minutes of no haste to only 3 minutes haste they are two different amount of times.
2. Underlined bit, that is point that is being made contrary to those claiming it is a dps loss when it isn't.

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Originally Posted by Menae

What PBC (PandaBearCat) is saying is that since your most TP efficient abilities tend to be DoTs of fixed durations that aren't impacted by haste, as your haste increases these abilities become smaller proportions of your damage. This is fine if you don't run out of TP, because you are still using them as often as possible. However, if you DO run out of TP and have to delay them to wait for a TP tick, you are losing damage that you wouldn't be if you hadn't TP starved yourself. Theoretically this shouldn't happen (because you can just slow your pace down to your unhasted levels), but if you hit a button every time you can and as a result run out of TP, it's a possibility.

DpCT is short for Damage per Cast Time. It's how much damage something does versus how long it takes to execute. Holy (200 potency) does more damage than Stone II (170 potency) to a single target, but because Holy takes 20% longer to cast and only does about 17% more damage, it's less DpCT to a single target. (This is just an example because I know the potency and cast times off the top of my head, please don't Holy single targets without a damn good reason) For any ability which is instant but on the GCD, you use your GCD as the cast time, because that's how long it locks you out of doing other stuff. There's a little more nuance in here for off GCDs and abilities which animation lock you, but the basic idea is damage per time spent executing. It's not quite the same as DPS because some abilities - DoTs - have way better DpCT than they do DPS. If I do 1 damage per potency, and a DoT does 300 potency over 10 seconds, it's only 30 DPS but 300 DpCT.

DpTP is much simpler. It's just damage per TP spent. An attack that does 200 damage for 100 TP has better DpTP than one that does 400 damage for 400 TP.

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Yes, DoTs and DoT heavy classes(BRD/SMN/NIN) are the exception to the rule and I concede to that fact since Dot are not affected by SkS/SpS and therefore not affected by haste until the expansion. But for your specific example:

With poisons and slashing debuffs applied

Mutilate: 5.490/tp <-
Shadow Fang: 5.769/tp
Aeolian Edge: 5.202/tp <-
Dancing Edge: 5.032/tp

You can substitute those 2 mutilates for 1 Aeolian Edge Combo and lose a whopping 5 whole percent for that that amount of 170 tp spent.

I wasn't comparing haste in particular. I Was referring to skill speed in general and tp drain during a normal fight without a resource to replenish . The times are irrelevant to the point and are only there to show some kind of number.

The point: several are posting that 1000tp to 0 is the same attacks regardless of increased ss (probably could had quoted some of them). Well that isn't true. It's the same number of attack in the same time period (I.e. 4min vs 4min) but not from 1000tp to 0 . The op stated they were asked to not use fey light I assume because the bard didn't want to play more paeon, which is why I did a 4min vs 3 min comparison. Without a paeon/goad tp will be depleted faster than without the extra ss in this scenario and no benefit will be gained from fey light.

Basically I'm countering whoever said use it anyway and let the melee throttle their dps until goad or invig. If they did that then they just negated the benefit of you using fey light so what's the point at all then. (other than pushing extra dps at a specific time)

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Originally Posted by alsims2007

Long story short, your getting in more attacks in less time which means in that time you have gained less natural tp ticks, so less tp to use overall

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If you have 940 TP or less every 3 seconds for the entire fight, you will get the same amount of TP regeneration for the same amount of time, period.

If you get to the point where you can use Invigorate without wasting any TP 10 seconds faster, then that's 10 seconds each successive Invigorate happens, and 10 seconds you're more likely to get an extra one in, or burn up the TP from it before the end of the fight.

Also, skill speed affects speed of autoattacks, which are 25-30% of your damage.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

If you have 940 TP or less every 3 seconds for the entire fight, you will get the same amount of TP regeneration for the same amount of time, period.

If you get to the point where you can use Invigorate without wasting any TP 10 seconds faster, then that's 10 seconds each successive Invigorate happens, and 10 seconds you're more likely to get an extra one in, or burn up the TP from it before the end of the fight.

Also, skill speed affects speed of autoattacks, which are 25-30% of your damage.

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(sigh) exactly. Same in the same time. But the point of increased speed is that you do more skills faster, more damage should mean you kill the boss faster but tp doesn't naturally recover faster. So less ticks, less tp when you reach 0 tp. Paeon/goad is needed or sit there waiting negating the effects (the extra damage) overall for the entire boss fight (has to be a boss fight cause that's the only time tp really plays a factor)
Technically speaking if you finish a fight at the same time with boosted Ss what benefit did you get? None, you finished at the same time, you didn't finish any faster.

And ss does not affect autoattacks. Attack speed does (grease lightning and huton)

Oh wait are you thinking increased skill speed affects invigorate? It doesn't, skill speed only affects global cooldowns, not off global. You can view your action's recasts and test for yourself.

The problem with skillspeed is simple:

Open fight -> dps until ~540-570TP -> invigorate -> keep on dpsing until invigorate is up -> invigorate

Ideal situation you would be just about there on the second invigorate... maybe dip to 400 but not lower(for me if invigorate is not on CD after the first use either enough breaks in fights or doing something wrong).

With skillspeed what happens is the same until first invigorate... by the time you are on the second invigorate you would be possibly at 200tp or worse already starved.

It also depends a lot on the fight of course. Certain mechanics and so on. I loved getting conflaged in t5 since it was free TP regen.