FFXIV PvP Awareness

Hey Hey

The level of animosity and prejudice by "most" FFXIV players is so great it reflects the fright and negativity towards pvp in this MMO. I understand bad pvp experiences in other MMOs may have influenced these players to generalize all pvp as negative and rotten. But lets not fail to acknowledge pvp has been fun and fair in some MMOs, as a whole or fractional, such as pvp instances.

Lets note that no game, player or content is perfect. but we can attempt perfection in our games, be unbiased, neutral and respectful. FFXIV acknowledges pvp is not necessarily cheats and ganking, I am sure FFXIV recognize pvp has competitiveness, skill and strategy to offer. proof is FFXIV incorporated pvp into the game.

FFXIV was far from pefect when it first launched, Naoki Yoshida and Square Enix rolled up their sleeves and we got FFXIV: ARR. and it kicked ass!. and it continues to deliver and we got Heavensward coming up. Now, pvp is far from perfect and it is part of the game, lets fix it.

My rough estimate is that 80% to 99% of FFXIV are strictly pve inclined players. And addressing the current pvp issues is a start or one way to fix pvp for our 1%, 5% or 20% paying FFXIV playerbase that enjoys pvp:

1. Que Times. The two pvp instances in FFXIV is so minimal in content in comparison to the pve content in the game it is crucial for the pvp playerbase. Only game devs and technicians know exactly the fix. be it removing the GC and party formation restrictions and requirements. it has been stated in many forum threads pvp supporting players would not care what GC they pvp for during the instance, introduce a mercenary GC that only exist for pvp, or remove the GCs all together for the two pvp instances. Parties can easily form into just two division requirements instead of three. healers and dps/tanks = ready to go.

2. PvP rewards and Gear. So we got morale removed and no other rewards to speak of from pvping at the moment other than glamour skins. Question is what do we do once we get all glamour skins we want and the que times to pvp are horrendous?. Pleas and complaints outweighed the pro pvp playerbase. So lets design and introuduce a new reward. Perhaps gil, rankings, trophies, or a nongame-changer stat.

3. Balance. Our two pvp instances are not open world and very restricted so a fix should be very accessible. Inside FL or WD: longer cooldown on game breaking nukes, magic def pvp skills for melees that increase with distance and decrease with proximity. physical def pvp skills for ranged and casters that increase with proximity and decrease with distance. Higher HP pool. longer cooldown for certain skills or gradual degrade in their crowd control and power if repeatedly fired within certain times, for both, melees and ranged/casters. An earned pvp stat that could be applied to each players weakness, such as less time slept, silenced, stunned, etc. if we got 10 BLMs nuking X spot a constant low dps only class pull-like pvp skill would certainly help balance things out by pulling one BLM out of the nukers comfort zone to even things out abit.

The other way to address the lack of pvp and its issues in FFXIV would be to completely start fresh with new forms and options:

1. Duels. Imagine the possibility of 1v1 or even 2v2s consensual pvp anywhere any time. A simple setting of On and Off to accept duel or party vs party requests would avoid making this feature annoying to strictly pve players. Once "On' we still have the option to reject the invitation or accept the challenge and show off infront of our friends and strangers. If the very picky players would be annoyed by fun and consensual spontaneous pvp then we can restrict duels to certain areas of the game world.

2. New pvp instances with simplied rules and ranking exposure. imagine that instead of a open wide area like FL.. a two path map obstacled by some mobs. X team on one path and Z on the other. both start at their respective safe zones and got to pve from point A to point F. at point D and E both paths got cross points where the parties can encounter each other to pvp. temporary gates and player induced mob spawns can bring variables from point D to point F of the instance. Once at point F the party that kills Boss Y wins the instance, or who ever killed the more players after the timer runs out. Winning party ears gil, potions, tickets for some pve content, etc.

3. full open world pvp would be huge and almost inconceivable in FFXIV. but a dedicated open pvp zone would work. lets call it "The Pit". The Pit has a sign that reads "enter at your own risk! This area is open to all forms of attacks from any player and mob lurking inside". The Pit has only two safe zones. the entrance/exit and the spectator zone. spectators can not participate unless exiting and entering the right gate. At entrance zone players choose one of three or four different teleportation zones within the Pit if they don't want to walk off safe zone. The Pit would be for the hardcore Alpha players that want bragging rights, no rules and no Grand Companies. If FFXIV has no anticheat/hacks shield then one needs to be in place, Pit or no Pit. If you push it the Front Lines could easily accommodate The Pit.


So this is very long now. PvErs love FFXIV and are here to stay, awesome!. We got to acknowledge some of us that love and have supported FFXIV for decades are PvErs/PvPers, we deserve a spot and resouces too. If we bring fair fun pvp to FFXIV we can only bring more players. Rotten players will join you say, I say they will Not because pvp will always be minimal in FFXIV. now that minimal part has to be near perfect so some of us don't have to get our pvp fill from other MMOs.

Just imagine fighting a nonpredictable AI fight once in a while.





cheers.

It burns when I PvP.

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Originally Posted by SAMURAl

part 5

The other way to address the lack of pvp and its issues in FFXIV would be to completely start fresh with new forms and options:

1. Duels. Imagine the possibility of 1v1 or even 2v2s consensual pvp anywhere any time. A simple setting of On and Off to accept duel or party vs party requests would avoid making this feature annoying to strictly pve players. Once "On' we still have the option to reject the invitation or accept the challenge and show off in front of our friends and strangers. If the very picky players would be annoyed by fun and consensual spontaneous pvp then we can restrict duels to certain areas of the game world.

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Problem: Combat makes noise, especially in this game. There are already people who annoy others by spamming emotes near the MB in Limsa. Having the sounds of battle the entire time would be even more annoying.
Suggest a solution to this problem, as it's a MAJOR reason anywhere-we-want duels aren't in-game.

They need to simplify. Frontlines is great for what it is, but they need more basic options as well. What happened to good old capture the flag or king of the hill type matches? Do that + smaller teams, say 10 v 10 or 15 v 15, and pull the grand company req out so it can be 2 teams instead of the awkward 3. It also would be helpful if they could re-do targeting, or at least the enemy player UI. Make it bigger, more vibrant, and easier to select. Try targeting somebody specific in frontlines 72 without an assist macro...

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Originally Posted by GenoMallow

They need to simplify

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What could be simpler than Slaughter, really?

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Originally Posted by DrOstler

What could be simpler than Slaughter, really?

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Some things are badly handled, 72 players gathered in the same area for Slaughter isn't really good, especially for those who have a low configuration ( and there are too much mobs, with 24 players it's much better, you don't spent half your time killing a boss ), for the base capture mode the 24 men is stupid, there are only 3 bases so no one try to move or take a base, the area is too big for 24 players anyway.

Anyway, we need more maps and more game modes, and remove that stupid GC limitation, you can't go with your friend and the teams are always the same.

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Originally Posted by lololink

Anyway, we need more maps and more game modes

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We don't. What we have now needs to be fixed before adding even more. As if secure wasn't already dead enough, when slaughter got released it just split up the community even further

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Originally Posted by DrOstler

We don't. What we have now needs to be fixed before adding even more. As if secure wasn't already dead enough, when slaughter got released it just split up the community even further

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Make it random or give good bonuses to random, maps are part of fixing the issues there are now, some mods aren't good for the big map ( Secure with 24 players is dumb ).Open the PvP DF to all servers and remove the GC restrictions will help a lot to the queues too.

The only way to get the playerbase to do PVP is to make it fun. I've always thought frontlines was fun, but it's lacking too many features to make it worth playing. Ultimately, XIV is too PvE oriented to even have a good PvP mode. I say this as an entirely PvP oriented gamer -- XIV is the only real non-competitive online game I play. Square has done a surprisingly decent job at trying, since they actually have PVP-only skills and tweaks for PVP, but it's not entirely enough. The entire premise behind XIV's battle mechanics break down when you remove enmity, and are fighting human players. You can't dodge anything, predict anything, you can't outplay anyone. It's just a skill spamming, CD-unloading mashfest.

If later down the road, they make some overhauls to PVP like animation lock, adding AoE markers to attacks, ect ect then it'd be pretty neat. But as it stands i'm not too surprised PVP isn't popular.

for what its worth i think its fun though

You called this FFXIV PvP awareness. OK, here is some awareness for you. IMHO, FFXIV is not a PvP game, it's 99% PvE, and will remain that way. FF games are rooted in the JRPG history which is utterly PvE. The majority of players (I believe it's the vast majority) who play this are not interested in PvP, if they were, Frontlines and Wolves Den would be somewhat busier. The fact is, PvP is a check box for the modern MMORPG, and so FFXIV has it, Yoshi likes PvP, so it has it. But, open world PvP does not, and would not fit the game or the player base - in my opinion at least.

The weird thing is, and I was just talking about this with some FC mates the other day, but before I played FFXIV:ARR...I was a 100% PvP oriented player. In every game I played, from text MUD to graphic MMO and everything in between. Something about ARR just soothes my inner savage beast and I have almost no interest at all in Frontlines or Wolves' Den.

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Originally Posted by Chek

The weird thing is, and I was just talking about this with some FC mates the other day, but before I played FFXIV:ARR...I was a 100% PvP oriented player. In every game I played, from text MUD to graphic MMO and everything in between. Something about ARR just soothes my inner savage beast and I have almost no interest at all in Frontlines or Wolves' Den.

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Yeah, i was this way too. It's because this is a genuinely good game all around. The first thing i look at when deciding to try an MMO is its PVP system -- if it doesn't have one, or it's too restrictive or badly designed, i don't even bother with the game. Usually, PvP tends to be the real defining trait of an MMO, since its story is usually garbage and its character designs are mostly fanservice'y.

That said, while i don't play much PvP in XIV because i dont find it skillfully fulfilling, i have alot of respect for the effort that went into making it a thing. Most MMOs that offer PVP out the box don't even bother tweaking abilities for PvP usage. XIV takes it a step farther and even adds PVP-only abilities.

Yeah, I suspect you're right. Other MMOs are generally unsatisfying in the regards of PvE, whereas I genuinely enjoy the fights in this game. Its not even like I didn't think the Frontlines were fun, its just...meh, I have other stuff to do for once, you know? PvP isn't the ONLY fun thing to do this time around.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

You called this FFXIV PvP awareness. OK, here is some awareness for you. IMHO, FFXIV is not a PvP game, it's 99% PvE, and will remain that way. FF games are rooted in the JRPG history which is utterly PvE. The majority of players (I believe it's the vast majority) who play this are not interested in PvP, if they were, Frontlines and Wolves Den would be somewhat busier. The fact is, PvP is a check box for the modern MMORPG, and so FFXIV has it, Yoshi likes PvP, so it has it. But, open world PvP does not, and would not fit the game or the player base - in my opinion at least.

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I am "aware" of PVP - I choose to ignore it as I 100% loathe it, in any game I play. There is no reward that could entice me to do it.

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Originally Posted by SAMURAl

1. Que Times. The two pvp instances in FFXIV is so minimal in content in comparison to the pve content in the game it is crucial for the pvp playerbase. Only game devs and technicians know exactly the fix. be it removing the GC and party formation restrictions and requirements. it has been stated in many forum threads pvp supporting players would not care what GC they pvp for during the instance, introduce a mercenary GC that only exist for pvp, or remove the GCs all together for the two pvp instances. Parties can easily form into just two division requirements instead of three. healers and dps/tanks = ready to go.

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Since I never personally liked the Wolves' Den, Borderlands is my only way to PvP in this game. What personally is taking all the fun out of it are long queue times paired with a rather poor and decreasing overall performance of my Grand Company.

Looking at their performance in the 'top 100' on my data centre:
last week: 12 (victories), 4 (victory-rate), 28 (matches total);
last month: 22 (victories), 12 (victory-rate), 35 (matches total)

The way I see it, people get the reward they want (e.g.: ALS) and stop playing, meaning less experienced people, less chance to win for the rest, other experienced people don't want to bother either. Other Grand Companies who are mostly dominating are going to make the less experienced people stop queueing up at some point as well, unless they don't bother losing and we're getting our long queue times. Which means overall even less people bothering to queue up.

Remove the GC restrictions!

PvP sucks in this game simply because combat is not very dynamic. Every skill has such a delay associated with it, in fact, every little ACTION in the game has it.. No matter what you're doing. So that can't really foster a good pvp environment imo.. I don't know what the deal is with the game, but every little action seems to have to go through a bunch of loops in order to be executed and it just feels like a lot of unnecessary things are having to wait for a server feed back (desynth lag anybody?)

As unfortunate as it is, combat in this game is just not the type of thing where you can have a good pvp environment.

Also, what I fail to understand is, why telegraphed skills are so prevalent among enemies, but we don't have any access to them..

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Originally Posted by Chek

The weird thing is, and I was just talking about this with some FC mates the other day, but before I played FFXIV:ARR...I was a 100% PvP oriented player. In every game I played, from text MUD to graphic MMO and everything in between. Something about ARR just soothes my inner savage beast and I have almost no interest at all in Frontlines or Wolves' Den.

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That's probably because you didn't see any point to pvp'ing with the current combat system. I've resorted almost fully to crafting and playing the market in this game also.. There's just no end-game content that intrigues me other than crafting.. Combat is just oh so boring if you ask me.. No real challenge and everything's pretty much a gear check or latency check.. No other mechanics.

The main problem I see in the PvP is, that people don't care about tactics. Every time I play slaughter half of my party stays on mid even when we are supposed to go to market or manors. What riddles me the most is why my party members keep focusing enemy team with 3 healers while other team has only 1 (during 8V8V8) since begining of the fight.

Secure is as simple as it could be but for some players it still seems to be overcomplicated or they just don't care and want their rank and wolf marks asap so they just spend their time in pvp midAFK attacking nearest enemy.

FFXIV is a PVE game but it doesn't mean it shouldn't have good PvP. It can't be compared to other FF games because they are single player and it can't be compared to FFXI because many people here love to argument that FFXIV isn't FFXI so don't bring it as an argument when it benefits you. :))
Thanks.

Hi, I love PvP in this game, (Despite the queue needs to be solved)

I hope they'll really take us in consideration and incentivate it a little more... In PvP you need to know VERY WELL how to use your PvP skills and other stuff, and how to predict the movements of the enemy group, how to interact with your group.... Is way funnier and requires more skill than Raid, in my opinion...

People who hates PvP is because they don't success in it, and those who don't success in PvP are simply because either bad luck (Hey, can happen ,v.gr: Bad team) or lack of knowledge and skill for PvP. ("Oh! A healer just pushed me off the cliff, DAMN, PVP SUCKS!").

The only, urgent tweak it needs, URGENT, is to remove the GC limitation, it's pointless, the lore of it doesn't really help us at all.... It's stupid we can't manage to battle because that... And it's also unfair that some people is gathering in certain grand companies on purpose for ADS mount and etc... If you'd make it random everything would be better, faster, and, people could still playing together, even more, because you could party with ANYONE of your server...

Note: For doing PvP properly, you can't be so weak-automatized like in PvE, you really need to have a high alert and awareness of the battle situation, be skilled, have a good plan and don't assault enemy like a headless chicken, etc... PvP is not about memorize and deal with mechanics, it's about reflex and pure skill, if you don't like that or you are not good at it, don't blame PvP saying it sucks, it's just that it's too much for you.

I have yet to see someone SKILLED and high PVP player saying "PvP sucks because everything", All you can hear of them is perhaps "Slaughter mode is broken and Secure is boring" or "Queue times and GC limitations are insane"

To be honest, I've never really had problems being at a decently competitive level with pvp of any game I've played.. In fact, most of the MMOs I've played ARE geared toward open world pvp (Age of Conan (when they still had 5 hit combos), Darkfall online etc.)

It's not for the lack of ability, but rather for my lack of trying.. Hell, even attempting pvp.
In fact, I barely even do any combat in this game at all.. So I have to ask, is it just me that thinks the combat in this game is incredibly clumsy and static? There's very little reason to move around during combat and all the actions in the game suffer from this consistent delay and that's what really puts me off of any end-game combat content. It's all so one dimensional, there's no mechanics other than gear check or movement check to make sure you're present and not suffering from any lag spikes.. I just don't think there's much reward to combat in this game and that's my opinion. If it weren't for my friends irl playing ff14 and the social aspect (people are generally more pleasant than other games, and quite a bit mature) I probably wouldn't even be playing the game.

Combat has always been an issue for me with ff14, even before picking up the game, I was worried the combat system would drive me out. It would have, but I find the crafting system and the open market fascinating so I'm keeping myself occupied with that for now.

To be honest...I'm not feeling these terrible PVP queue times. I normally get 15m queues, which I find normal. (Having PVP'd in both WoW and WS).

Rewards: I agree here. There's little incentive. Cool looking gear? Awesome....but eh. Moral should play a part, if only minor. (i90 PVP should beat i90 PVE). Or even let PVP add 1 materia per rank (So the third tier will let you add 3 materia, your choosing)

Balance is probably XIVs strong point. I've can never recall being killed by one. I've seen many people destroyed by them: 1 hit by melee LB. But that's because you're in 3.5k HP gear. SCH is probably the only front winner of PVP, and even that's pushing it.