Suggestion to devs to replace DoT timers.

So I was thinking about something that's been a little annoying after talking about Summoner. It's something we've all seen and thought about. We know DoT damage takes place every 3 seconds, but WHICH 3 seconds is it? We want to know not because we're curious, but because it might not need the remaining 2 seconds, or maybe it does, and we're afraid to either re-apply it too soon or let it run out.

So I propose an idea to either replace timers completely, or at least as a character setting we can check to replace them. Instead of a timer, make it a countdown that will count how many times left the effect will take effect. So for example, Bio lasts 18 seconds, and this means it'll take effect 6 times. Instead of the timer starting at 18, it would start at 6, and every 3 seconds the number would drop.

This could be worked into the game in 2 different ways. The first being to replace the duration entirely with the number of ticks, the second to just be more of a HUD change. Ideally I would prefer the first, to replace the duration entirely, which would have both a benefit to it and a detriment to us players.

It's been stated in 3.0 that DoT's are going to be affected by Speed directly. If this change were implemented, this would mean that even with more speed, DoT's won't do more damage with just a single cast on its own (it will over time due to it running out faster, though). This would balance the aspect of Speed affecting DoT's, since having them activate more often over the same duration would eventually be overkill (the lack of this would be our detriment).

However, it would be easier for us to manage. Even with 0 speed, spells take 2.5 seconds to cast (except Bio 1 and Aero, among other spells). This means that when the counter reaches 1, we can start casting, and most of the time the effect should take place while we're casting and we can get the full benefit of the DoT without applying too early. With more speed, even though the DoT should run out faster, our spells will also cast faster, so the effect speed has on this particular instance is negated.


If this were to just be a HUD change, then all that would happen is the number would represent how many ticks were left, and it would be a little tricky when the number of ticks went directly to 5 instead of 6, since we casted it just before one of those 3 seconds passed.


I think this would be a pretty good idea, and given the time left until the release of Heavensward, and the change to DoT's coming up, I think it's the perfect time to implement this idea. Though it's not as if we can't play the game as it is, I think it would be an improvement to the current model.

I'd rather just have detailed tooltips like WoW has. DoTs there always stated exactly how much damage was being done in how many seconds (or fractions of a second). It was so nice. I was shocked when I came to this game and saw how bad and vague the tooltips were.

Apparently in Heavensward, Spell Speed will affect DoTs..
Likely how often they tick. SOooooooo... How do you list what that is?

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Originally Posted by Terrini

Apparently in Heavensward, Spell Speed will affect DoTs..
Likely how often they tick. SOooooooo... How do you list what that is?

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I assume you mean to question how you would show in the tooltip how that works. You would simply display how many ticks would take place, and the DoT would just wear off whenever the last tick takes place.

Seems they are too lazy to change the way DoT calculation is done (and I can understand: the whole system shall be redone). As far as I understood, DoT will just hit harder, so SS -> kinda determination for DoTs... If it is real, I am still not convinced!

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Originally Posted by Terrini

Apparently in Heavensward, Spell Speed will affect DoTs..
Likely how often they tick. SOooooooo... How do you list what that is?

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http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/125...80#post6372380

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Is there a possibility that you'll be making adjustments for skill speed and spell speed, for example?
Y: This is just an example, but it will have an effect on DoT, and so on. For example, a higher spell speed will raise the strength of the DoT's damage per tick, so the overall amount of damage will be raised. I'd like to avoid going into too much detail because it's still under adjustment and we understand that we need to considerably increase the importance of spell speed, but there will be changes to important parameters for each job.

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I wish that our skill will flash if DOT, debuff or buff is out.

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Originally Posted by Freyt

So I was thinking about something that's been a little annoying after talking about Summoner. It's something we've all seen and thought about. We know DoT damage takes place every 3 seconds, but WHICH 3 seconds is it? We want to know not because we're curious, but because it might not need the remaining 2 seconds, or maybe it does, and we're afraid to either re-apply it too soon or let it run out.

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Or you could just learn how the DoTs work. Even if there's no damage on application then the next three seconds would have a tick so clipping would be bad.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

I'd rather just have detailed tooltips like WoW has. DoTs there always stated exactly how much damage was being done in how many seconds (or fractions of a second). It was so nice. I was shocked when I came to this game and saw how bad and vague the tooltips were.

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WoW actually remedied the clipping of dots by adding extra ticks from the old DoT when you apply a new one. Currently it works for a third of the DoTs duration.

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

Or you could just learn how the DoTs work. Even if there's no damage on application then the next three seconds would have a tick so clipping would be bad.

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You didn't really read my post did you?

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Originally Posted by Freyt

You didn't really read my post did you?

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I did, did you. DoTs are very simple to understand and you want to make it more complicated.

I read the OP and thought that surely someone would have corrected him by now, but alas.
I'll educate you guys in DoTs.
So your worry is that you may apply the dot, and it ticks, making the final tick happen 1 second after your DoT falls off.
But get this, if you apply the DoT correctly, as soon as the next one falls off, you lose no ticks.
So it boils down to managing DoTs correctly. In summary, all DoTs (duration/3) ticks.

It's interesting to ponder where they might take it, I don't see them doing it where it increases the duration of the DoT unless they plan to change Garuda's ability but if they did do that it would be interesting.

There are three ways they could go about adjusting DoTs with spell/skill speed

Bio Potential DoT potency 240
1: Increase DoT dmg Ex. Bio goes from 40 DoT to 45 DoT for 18 seconds Potential Potency=270
2: Increase the duration of DOT Ex Bio goes from 18 seconds to 21 seconds Potency=280
3: Decrease the tick rate of DoT Ex. Bio goes from 3 sec to 2.5 second tick Potency=288

From the above 2 would be favorable, 3 would be hard to implement because of decimals and 1 could be interesting since we have these to think about.

1=Increased dmg with DoTs upon applying but it doesn't effect your current rotation meaning that you will always apply them at the same time

2=More time can be spent doing other things in that time frame, so let's say while yes it might not look like a lot but in terms of Summoner or Scholar using Ruin that extra 3 seconds in essence can amount to one more Ruin before having to apply Bio meaning that's an additional 80 damage because of change.

In the sense of 2 the combat in a sense mimics the way Ninja works cause as they stand now they have the sense of having to pause mid-combo to apply jutsu or timing a jutsu before a certain combo ends or starts.

With 1 things in essence remain the same but you'll deal more damage as the battle progresses, basically in that sense every 8 Bios would be like casting 9 Bios without the Buff which would mean every 8 Bios that would normally be a general potency of 1920 would now be 2160.

However with increases duration we have a scenario where every 6 Bios is like 7 but on top of that 6 Ruins can take the place of the time one would reapply Bio with 18 second duration meaning that amusing, 2160 dmg would be dealt however this means that Bio with increased duration would be more potent than one that just increases damage because in the above of 8 Bios 144 seconds have passed, however with 6 Bios with 21 seconds duration only 126 seconds have passed. So then you pretty much have an extra 360 potency bringing the potency to 2520 however it would have to be near perfect execution to make it pay off but it would potentially add a higher level of strategy to DoT dmg dealing.

Overall while at first I kinda liked the idea of dealing more base DoT dmg when it comes to making fights more dynamic the effect of skillspeed influencing the duration of the spell/skill sounds more enticing since it puts you into a scenario to adapt a new battle strategy based on the duration of DoT.

Cause let's say it goes both ways, if DoT duration is influenced by spell/skill speed that would make abilities like Slow even more hazardous than it is to players because it would reduce their DoT duration and force them to have to reapply it sooner.

I am definitely looking forward to whatever changes they may have in plan though since it will definitely make an interesting dynamic for NIN seeing as they have a self buff that greatly increases their skill speed/att speed.

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Originally Posted by Anubis_Nephthys

So it boils down to managing DoTs correctly. In summary, all DoTs (duration/3) ticks.

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Let me try and find out exactly what the problem may be. Please do point out any mistakes I make.

Each dash(-) is 0.5 second without the DoT debuff, each plus(+) is a potential tick at the instant.
Each pipe(|) is application of the DoT at that instant, and star(*) means the DoT falling off at that instant.

Suppose our DoT lasts for 6 seconds (2 ticks). For a 15 second duration:

No DoT
----+------+------+------+------+--

Various cases of apply and let it fall off, reapply in 0.5 seconds.
--|--+------+----*-|-+------+-----*-+--
---|-+------+-----*-|+------+------*+--
----|+------+------*+-|-----+------+-*-
Note that in the third case, there's one potential tick you miss out simply because it fell between your DoT applications.

Various cases of reapplying 0.5 seconds before it falls off.
|----+------+-|-----+------+|------+--
-|---+------+--|----+------+-|-----+--
--|--+------+---|---+------+--|----+--
---|-+------+----|--+------+---|---+--
----|+------+-----|-+------+----|--+--
----+|------+------|+------+-----|-+--
----+-|-----+------+|------+------|+--
You'll realize that in the last case, the second duration of the debuff got only 1 tick.

Now look at the first case of the early reapplication. The reapplication could actually be delayed for 2 seconds without missing any ticks.
The closer your first application was to the previous tick time, the more you could space out your next reapplication.

So let's look now at a 1 minute period utilizing the delay tactic for 1.5 seconds, mixed with the 0.5 second early reapplication:
|----+------+--*---|-+------+----|--+------+---|---+------+--|----+------+--*
---|-+------+----|--+------+---|---+------+--|----+------+--*---|-+------+--
And you should see the pattern here.

We let it fell off 3 times, earning 4.5 seconds time we could use on other things.
For example, that 1.5 seconds could let us complete a Ruin cast.
This is a peculiar result of the system where ticks are not dependent on the debuff duration.

Personally I'd prefer that this peculiarity be resolved on the server side by allowing some extension of debuff time.

I am sure they will not implement faster tick time of DoTs just after fixing the mana problem... would negate all the effort in fixing the issue (or they add new skills?)
It is more likeley they will add some time to DoTs because analysing the mana fix we see ruin is now "cheaper", so how to make use of it if not with "more" spaming?
I just dont think they will add more button smashing... what is left is increasing damage for each tick!