My Philosophy on Needing for Lower iLevel Gear

I've seen a lot of posts about this on the forums and there was an issue tonight in PF about this also: Needing on gear that is of lower ilevel than what you have equipped.

Many people have a problem with it. This seems to stem from the idea that gear is just for fighting in and if you have something "better" that it is greedy to Need/Lot on the lower level gear. If you do then you are "depriving" other players of gear they "deserve."

I put these words in quotes because I obviously don't agree. The reason is pretty simple really: SE has made gear useful for other things than just improving your combat ability.

- Vanity. This is a legit endgame for some. I've seen people run dungeons 30-50 times for a piece of gear... for LOOKS. Isn't this the reason people farm ponies? Simply because they are cool to have? They don't do anything different/better from any other mount.

- Seals. I also think this is legit. Seals are needed for many important things (ventures, gear, mats, relic, Lucis tools, etc.) I think it's biased to assume that gear for combat (for you) is more important than these other purposes (for someone else).

- Desynthesis. I have GSM at 103. I'm trying to cap it before expansion. Farming gear is one of the few sources of skill-ups at this level. Again, this is an important endgame factor. Not only can I get skill-ups but sometimes items worth hundreds of thousands of gil.

Bottom line is unless you joined a PF group and explicitly asked for a certain piece of loot and it was agreed you could have it, then you don't have any more right to it than anyone else, regardless of the reason.

From SE's perspective, it is good that gear is multi-purpose because this creates more demand for gear and therefore more scarcity of that gear (and ultimately more running of content for that gear). Being able to Need on gear is a perk for those who play the job that gear is useful for. If you want a greater chance at a certain piece of gear, then you should play that job.

Please note, this is my own personal philosophy but the TLDR version is: you are owed nothing.

If we're talking lv50 content, it don't matter at all (unless agreed upon prior). If we're talking low lvl stuff, with some exception, there's no reason to take away from someone that would use it (if you know that person would use it for their class/job they're on).

As some one who often joins DF as a dps i agree. There are many times i want a piece of tanking gear but if i did not que as a tank i have no right to claim it above some one who may want it for their own (and qued as the appropriate role) , what ever that use may be. The game as it stands offers many lateral gear options so what one may find in dungeons need not be the only item that there is for your level range.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

If we're talking low lvl stuff, with some exception, there's no reason to take away from someone that would use it (if you know that person would use it for their class/job they're on).

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But see, for example, if the Battlemage Robe FINALLY drops for me after months of looking for it, especially if I'm playing as one of my mages (which, besides blm, are all higher level), you bet your sweet bippy I'm going to need it.
I'll use it? Absolutely. Do I need it for leveling? No....but that doesn't mean I'm not going to use it. I have just as much right to it as someone else playing a mage class...

Honestly I tend to at least 'greed' everything, because I am a loot whore, and if I have something already and I see someone need it for leveling, I usually do pass it on, because hey. But one of my goals is to get full sets of all the sets I like....so... if I want it, I'll 'need' on it. Deal with it.

If you can need on it, do it.

If you can greed on it, do it

If you can pass on it, do it.

There is no wrong choices and anyone claiming otherwise is either butthurt cause they didnt get their precious item or just feels like putting down people for trying for a item they have a right to get as much as anyone else.

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

But see, for example, if the Battlemage Robe FINALLY drops for me after months of looking for it, especially if I'm playing as one of my mages (which, besides blm, are all higher level), you bet your sweet bippy I'm going to need it.
I'll use it? Absolutely. Do I need it for leveling? No....but that doesn't mean I'm not going to use it. I have just as much right to it as someone else playing a mage class...

Honestly I tend to at least 'greed' everything, because I am a loot whore, and if I have something already and I see someone need it for leveling, I usually do pass it on, because hey. But one of my goals is to get full sets of all the sets I like....so... if I want it, I'll 'need' on it. Deal with it.

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Yeah, that's what I meant by the "exception" part. Same with the Shadow Bow and whatever else. I'd greed too, but I generally won't Need on something that a leveling player would use on the class/job they're on unless it's for vanity reasons (which the grand majority of equip drops are not lol).

I think that people pervert the meaning of the word "Need" to suit their purposes and to make themselves feel like less of a douchebag when they Need on stuff. The simple fact is that if it's not an immediate upgrade to your current piece of gear, you should be hitting Greed.

"But I need to gain XXXX Grand Company Seals to buy the item for the next step in the Zodiac quest!" - Well, that's fine. There are plenty of ways to get GCS's. You don't NEED a dungeon drop to essentially VENDOR to the Quartermaster to gain the seals needed to get that item.

"But this is the last piece I need to complete my vanity look!" - Again, you don't actually NEED this. You WANT it. That's what the Greed button is there for. Things you WANT.

If you're having a hard time telling the difference between "Need" and "Want", you should probably go attend some more Kindegarten classes. Those kids'll straighten you out right quick.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

If we're talking lv50 content, it don't matter at all (unless agreed upon prior). If we're talking low lvl stuff, with some exception, there's no reason to take away from someone that would use it (if you know that person would use it for their class/job they're on).

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low lvl or high lvl doesn't matter the gear that drops in lower dungeons you will wear for exactly 5 mins before you upgrade so stop crying about it. its all glamour and seals, i always pass regardless cause i don't need either but the second someone demands they deserve it and we all have to pass or else, i will roll on everything in sight

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Originally Posted by Teslo

I think that people pervert the meaning of the word "Need" to suit their purposes and to make themselves feel like less of a douchebag when they Need on stuff. The simple fact is that if it's not an immediate upgrade to your current piece of gear, you should be hitting Greed.

"But I need to gain XXXX Grand Company Seals to buy the item for the next step in the Zodiac quest!" - Well, that's fine. There are plenty of ways to get GCS's. You don't NEED a dungeon drop to essentially VENDOR to the Quartermaster to gain the seals needed to get that item.

"But this is the last piece I need to complete my vanity look!" - Again, you don't actually NEED this. You WANT it. That's what the Greed button is there for. Things you WANT.

If you're having a hard time telling the difference between "Need" and "Want", you should probably go attend some more Kindegarten classes. Those kids'll straighten you out right quick.

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justification doesnt matter matter the only way your candy land version of lot rolls will work is if everyone in the whole world did it otherwise greed will win nothing, if theres some gear you NEED so badly you have to make people not greed it you should have come on the class you NEED it for

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Originally Posted by Teslo

I think that people pervert the meaning of the word "Need" to suit their purposes and to make themselves feel like less of a douchebag when they Need on stuff. The simple fact is that if it's not an immediate upgrade to your current piece of gear, you should be hitting Greed.

"But I need to gain XXXX Grand Company Seals to buy the item for the next step in the Zodiac quest!" - Well, that's fine. There are plenty of ways to get GCS's. You don't NEED a dungeon drop to essentially VENDOR to the Quartermaster to gain the seals needed to get that item.

"But this is the last piece I need to complete my vanity look!" - Again, you don't actually NEED this. You WANT it. That's what the Greed button is there for. Things you WANT.

If you're having a hard time telling the difference between "Need" and "Want", you should probably go attend some more Kindegarten classes. Those kids'll straighten you out right quick.

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LOL

By the same logic, you don't NEED to upgrade your gear (and if you do, perhaps you should have actually queued as that job). But I think you're missing the point that the Need/Greed system is designed to be fair. What can be more fair then getting priority on gear appropriate to the job you're playing and having an equal chance to roll on it? Now what's unfair is telling someone they shouldn't be able to roll at all.

What's funny is people will want tanks to pass on tank gear even though they didn't actually queue as a tank and then complain about how long it takes to get a party together neglecting that a) they could've queued as a tank themselves and b) if tanks don't have priority on tank gear, they are less incentivized to run the content. Now you could say that you don't want to play a tank because you like some other class better and that's fair but if you like the other class better, why do you expect to get passed tank gear for a job you're not playing? And then your argument is that you "need" it? Do you understand why I LOL'ed now?

My point remains that it's completely subjective what constitutes "need" and SE is using a pretty reasonable system to sort things out. I think it's fine if other players specify different loot rules up front but to expect something different after a run or in DF is just silly.

Yeah, I played EQ2 for 10 years and it was ALWAYS considered a dick move to Need on things that weren't a direct upgrade for you, stat-wise. It happened but very rarely and was super frowned upon. The community just understood that vanity/glamour/that game's version of desynth did not constitute "Need" the way an actual stat upgrade did.

So it was definitely kind of a shock when everyone needed on everything they could in this game. It was frustrating and I definitely saw it as a VERY dick move at first. But eventually I just decided to go with the flow... "when in Rome" and such. I still prefer the other philosophy but really I suppose neither is inherently right or wrong, its one of those things that ends up being dictated by the community.

The rules are already set up in the game. If the need button lights up you can need it. Doesn't matter if you want it for desynth or seals its yours if you hit need and win the roll.

In DF you almost always see people need anything they can need so I do the same thing.

I guess it just goes to show how unfriendly the community is in FFXI compared to other games. In my books, 'NEED' should be a direct upgrade to existing gear. Glamors and desynthesis come under 'Greed'. If you're rolling NEED and you know full well there's a party member who will benefit more from that gear than you will, then you're a horrible person.

In most cases, people tend to be around the same high ilvl so it's not often that you find people 'needing' dungeon drops. For that reason, I never roll 'need' on anything except for materials (and only because EVERYONE can and does) unless it's going to improve my existing equipment.

Honestly, if you're getting nothing out of it why rob someone else of a potential upgrade? It's just being greedy for the sake of it.

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Originally Posted by Teslo

I think that people pervert the meaning of the word "Need" to suit their purposes and to make themselves feel like less of a douchebag when they Need on stuff. The simple fact is that if it's not an immediate upgrade to your current piece of gear, you should be hitting Greed.

"But I need to gain XXXX Grand Company Seals to buy the item for the next step in the Zodiac quest!" - Well, that's fine. There are plenty of ways to get GCS's. You don't NEED a dungeon drop to essentially VENDOR to the Quartermaster to gain the seals needed to get that item.

If you're having a hard time telling the difference between "Need" and "Want", you should probably go attend some more Kindegarten classes. Those kids'll straighten you out right quick.

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You can also buy an HQ piece of the same level in the market boards and meld materias in it if you need an upgrade. You can try again.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

You can also buy an HQ piece of the same level in the market boards and meld materias in it if you need an upgrade. You can try again.

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You can also buy a HQ piece of the same level in the market boards and turn it in for GC seals. Or desynthesis. I'm not sure what your point was, but Teslo's argument still stands. One of these methods involves a lot of unnecessary costs, and risks since materia melding isn't always guaranteed. One is simply a drop in a dungeon.

It comes down to who's inconvenienced most, and the upgrader is the clear winner in this example.

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Originally Posted by Teslo

I think that people pervert the meaning of the word "Need" to suit their purposes and to make themselves feel like less of a douchebag when they Need on stuff. The simple fact is that if it's not an immediate upgrade to your current piece of gear, you should be hitting Greed.

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People should stop trying to add their own subjective definition to what the "Need" option means. It is simply a system to give priority on loot to the classes the gear was designed for, that is all. Intended use, upgrade or not, or anything else has nothing to do with it.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

I guess it just goes to show how unfriendly the community is in FFXI compared to other games. In my books, 'NEED' should be a direct upgrade to existing gear. Glamors and desynthesis come under 'Greed'. If you're rolling NEED and you know full well there's a party member who will benefit more from that gear than you will, then you're a horrible person.

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I think you are only seeing it from your PoW
Me for instance, I dont care much about ilvl, but I do care about vanity. It is my way of playing the game. Collect vanity.
So just cause my playstyle isn't like yours, I shouldn't be allowed to need on something that benefits my playstyle?
You see, this game has much more than gear progression

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

You can also buy a HQ piece of the same level in the market boards and turn it in for GC seals..

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Don't work with gear for glamour

I usually run dunjon as tank or healer, i've went out of my way and go as Bard in the hope to get this Shikaree (?) body (ilvl 70 bard) i'm still to see it once ! done this countless time (50+ run of any i70 dunjon).
If I happen to finally see it, i'm not gonna "greed" it, I'm gonna Need it and finally stop this grind once and for all >__< !!!
Why my "need" here should be "less important" than the one that only "need" it to gear up a few day (hours ?) before he can upgrade to ilvl 100 Soldiary ?
Hell i'm running this dunjon with the guy, i'm powerleveling him because he has lower gear, I need it as much (if not more !!) than he does !

I usually just greed lower gear, but there's this Glamour you want and never see it drop... When you see it at last and can need it, you just need it and noone should be entitle to tell you otherwise.

I'll say the same thing I say every time this topic comes up. A player running old content that wants the gear the content drops because it's an upgrade generally will get less use out of it that wants it solely for glamour, thanks to the ease at which higher level gear is obtained, and will only get slightly more use out of it than someone who wants it for seals(since they will turn it into seals as well pretty quickly).

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Originally Posted by Aura_Shurifon

I usually run dunjon as tank or healer, i've went out of my way and go as Bard in the hope to get this Shikaree (?) body (ilvl 70 bard) i'm still to see it once ! done this countless time (50+ run of any i70 dunjon).
If I happen to finally see it, i'm not gonna "greed" it, I'm gonna Need it and finally stop this grind once and for all >__< !!!
Why my "need" here should be "less important" than the one that only "need" it to gear up a few day (hours ?) before he can upgrade to ilvl 100 Soldiary ?
Hell i'm running this dunjon with the guy, i'm powerleveling him because he has lower gear, I need it as much (if not more !!) than he does !.

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Man I feel ya on the Shikaree Vest.
I mean, I main bard and I have never seen it drop ONCE. EVER.
As soon as it appears I'm 'need'ing the hell out of it. (Of course knowing my luck I'll happen to be healing that day and the two other dps in the party will be bards. Ha.)

The community in this game tends to need on gear that isn't a direct upgrade BECAUSE this game is designed to make gear appealing to all characters of all levels.

In WoW, you either wear armor, sell it for a tiny amount of gold, or disenchant it if you happen to be an enchanter (which most characters are not). Other mmos I've played let you smash armor into dust, which might be used to create upgrades, but never the best stuff in the game. So when you run a dungeon and something drops that isn't an upgrade, you have no logical REASON to need it. 20 gold or one extra enchanting crystal means nothing in terms of character progress.

In FFXIV, armor can be sold for high amounts of GC seals (only way to get moonstones and relic items), converted to materia (used by raiders and relic weapons), desynthed into valuable components necessary for endgame equipment, or worn by classes you have yet to level to 50. Want battlecraft demimateria III? You need to win rolls on armor that you can desynth in level 70-90 dungeons. Need a moonstone for your supra tools? Either grind a dozen fates in level 50 zones, or turn in 3 pieces of level 100 dungeon gear.

Now sure, rolling need on things I can ONLY turn in for seals is pretty selfish when I'm already sitting on a decent stack of moonstones, but for people who don't like running fates, it's a valid option. And I'm not going to pass up the chance to get leather working and armorer gear to desynth, especially since I'm still leveling those up.

So this isn't "other mmos". Everyone has something useful to do with gear they win. If you think your reason is more important than others, go ahead and ask. If you say nothing, don't be surprised when I need on armor and desynthing it in your face.

I need for the sake of needing.
Needing needs me to need.
Its the way of life and when the time comes you know what button i'm going to press.

The only way to get some looks is to win it in a dungeon or raid.

When I am going for those looks, I am playing on a class that can push the <need> button.

This sort of thing is the way it is. People will hit need regardless of what they'll do with it (even if it means doing nothing with it). Such as labyrinth, the bard gloves dropped and it was a direct upgrade for me (and would've certainly helped me meet the ilvl checks for HM primals). There was only one other bard and I had asked if I could have the gloves. The other bard who was already using the myth gloves roll need on it.

Why? At that point, you couldn't trade LotA drops for seals, nor was desynthesis even in the game. I really doubt he was going to use it for glamour. His reasoning: "I hit need and won, deal with it."

No matter how you look at that, that's more-or-less douchebaggery, especially when I had asked if I could get the gloves as an upgrade. I mean all in all, I could at least reason people will use drops for desyn or seals, but just doing it to be an arse is imo crossing the line.

I really don't care what you guys think of me, but I need on EVERY piece that I can.


Why? Because I can.

Does that make me a douchebag? Maybe yes, maybe not, the point is I need money, I need good glamours and I need higher level desynthesis. I don't "Want" these things. I "need" them for my own progression.

A lower level player "needs" better gear? Tough luck, there's an NPC right around the corner willing to sell good white gear for minimum gil. Arguably, I need low level gear MORE than a low level needs it, because the gear they'd need on, would be useless in a couple of hours, literally, with levelling being so fast on your first class and with all the quests you have that will give you good gear. While my gear serves the purpose of permanent development, be it for Desynthesis, for buying crafting mats that I need to make money to get myself a house and for a glamour piece that I can use forever.

So, my philosophy is: I don't care about what you need it for, if you can need on it, let the dice roll.

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Originally Posted by Lyzern

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My need is greater than your needs.

Even if it's something they can only use for a couple of hours, it'll end in the same result as you; vendored for minimal gil, desyned or traded for seals. Arguably, they're getting one more use out of you; using the gear for said hours then vendoring/trading/desyning it.

Their needs are greater than your needs. Saying you "need it more than anyone else" is pretty off the radar.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

My need is greater than your needs.

Even if it's something they can only use for a couple of hours, it'll end in the same result as you; vendored for minimal gil, desyned or traded for seals. Arguably, they're getting one more use out of you; using the gear for said hours then vendoring/trading/desyning it.

Their needs are greater than your needs. Saying you "need it more than anyone else" is pretty off the radar.

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As I said, I don't really care :) Dungeons aren't charity

I have no philosophy. It's a game and if I play it, I have equal amount of right to loot as everyone else. If I roll high on something and get it that's the end of it. If I don't get it, that's the end of it.

Then you could have simply said that instead of trying to argue that you need things more than another (when really, everyone is going to use it for the same purpose more or less.) And my post was directed to people who roll need just to be an asshat.

I'm talking about people who are rolling need on items that could not be traded for seals (LotA at hte time) or desynned, the most he would've gotten was a 700gil vendor which is honestly less than pocket change. Those that roll need on untradable minions when they already have one (I have two Enkidus now because of that accidental need)... Not sure if the same applies to mounts as well.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

You can also buy a HQ piece of the same level in the market boards and turn it in for GC seals. Or desynthesis. I'm not sure what your point was, but Teslo's argument still stands. One of these methods involves a lot of unnecessary costs, and risks since materia melding isn't always guaranteed. One is simply a drop in a dungeon.

It comes down to who's inconvenienced most, and the upgrader is the clear winner in this example.

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You can't turn in white gear for GC seals though, so the majority of crafted gear can't be turned in unless it happens to be on the list of daily turn ins for your grand company. Pink/green/blue gear can all be turned in for seals. Honestly, if I'm leveling up a lower level class I keep my gear up to date by crafting it myself and any gear I can Need on in dungeons I simply turn in for GC seals. As far as desynthesis goes, you can only reasonably level it up so high with the items you can craft yourself. You can either grab dungeon drops when they come up or you can spend a crapton of money crafting i70-i110 accessories just to break them down for .01 exp and get your cheapest material back (and a lot of the time you're just going to flat-out break the item for no gain at all).

Pretty sure all that needs to be said has been said.

I can't disagree with you OP and by rights if you can click need and you want it then yes you shouldn't feel bad about taking it. In high level dungeons, in my personal experience I greed on all loot, even ones I can need on. Seals are always welcome and nice but people forget the going nature in there. Be good to each other so they'll be good to you. Rolling greed over need has earned me countless player commendations I can be sure of it. That currency only being earned by gaining the respect of your peers.

At the beginning of a dungeon I always check the gear on player info of anyone in group who is the same class I am on. If their gear is worse than mine, I will tell them to need on the item.

These zodiac books make us run lower level content and I find very frequently that I end up with level appropriate folks in my group. No way am I, in my ilvl1XX gear, going to NEED a darned thing from those dungeons to make me a better player.

Considering how infrequently some things drop in the level 40-49 instances, I won't deprive another bard, mage or dragoon of an upgrade. Those people run those places just as often to gear up as we ran CT or coils.

Losing a need roll to someone who obviously is never going to equip said item drop to improve their dps, heals etc, is just plain maddening.

I've said it before in another thread but you cannot force random people in DF to follow rules you yourself made up, the game already has loot rules set in place that EVERY player is forced to follow so it is equal treatment to all participating.

If you want special loot rules in things you participate in you are free to make a PF and outline those rules.

Otherwise, everyone has just as much right to lot on things as the in game loot rules allow them to, whether it be they are able to Need or only Greed.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

I guess it just goes to show how unfriendly the community is in FFXI compared to other games. In my books, 'NEED' should be a direct upgrade to existing gear. Glamors and desynthesis come under 'Greed'. If you're rolling NEED and you know full well there's a party member who will benefit more from that gear than you will, then you're a horrible person.

Honestly, if you're getting nothing out of it why rob someone else of a potential upgrade? It's just being greedy for the sake of it.

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I usually always pass dungeon drops from everything pre 50 (unless all the people are 50 already anyway), but you cannot expect this from everyone, because they are there, in the dungeon or fight doing their job so honestly they can roll if they want to without feeling guilty or ashamed because if the game allows them to then its totally fair and equal treatment to all participating. So no, they are not stealing, they are not greedy, they are not horrible people, they are participating and playing the game how the game allows.

Don't forget people will be going in as the role and need on gear to gear the new jobs in 3.0.