do I hafta..

DPs when I heal? I'm no where near max level on my whm, but I don't remember dpsing on my sch either when prae first came out. Is that fail?

Before anyone starts throwing their opinion and starts a flame war about what you should or shouldn't do, lemme tell you this: keep the party alive no matter what. That's your duty as the healer. Do what you must in order the party lives. If you have to help the dps a little bit to make whatever dps check, do it. If you feel like you're gonna have to focus on healing then do so. Trust your judgement and you're a team. Everyone in your party has one goal: down the dungeon. It's not you against your teammates. Help each other out.

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Originally Posted by ClaireAbigail

Before anyone starts throwing their opinion and starts a flame war about what you should or shouldn't do, lemme tell you this: keep the party alive no matter what. That's your duty as the healer. Do what you must in order the party lives. If you have to help the dps a little bit to make whatever dos check, do it. If you feel like you're gonna have to focus on healing then do so. Trust your judgement and you're a team. Everyone in your party had one goal: down the dungeon. It's not you against your teammates. Help each other out.

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Pretty much this, your first priority is learning how to heal your party. Added DPS means mobs die faster means less healing, but you can't DPS at the expense of your team dying. Find the balance of the two facets and you'll be a much better healer than most healers out there. Every situation will be different, and it's up to you to learn how to make the correct calls.

Good luck~

I'm gonna have to agree with that. Keep everyone alive, that's your first priority.

Would it benefit you to learn how to dps + heal? Yeah. May I think to myself "wow that healer sure is lazy just standing there and healing"? Maybe. Will I ever kick a healer out of my group for healing and not dpsing? Absolutely not, that's ridiculous.

Play how you want as long as you're doing your role, at the very least.

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Originally Posted by ClaireAbigail

...you're a team.

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Actually true. Not a fat joke.

Newer content isn't being made with the same difficulty curves as content was back in the day. The days of sub-i90 gear (assuming Darklight-ish) trying to kill Titan just to START your relic were more difficult at the time compared to today's Soldiery-based i110 parties trying to go through things like Final Coil.
Back then you almost had no room to do anything but heal. Nowadays people are finding the gaps when everyone can squeeze out more damage to speed up the content, so it's turning into an unwritten expectation for many people.

First priority is always heal. A living DPS damage and pure heals > dead DPS and healer damage any day. Just don't be afraid to try to sneak in a few Aero's here and there.

There are more than enough posts in other threads.

Short answer: Healing remains your #1 priority. When you don't need to heal, use your best judgment and be useful. When you get comfortable and have a decently functioning party that doesn't take damage that it shouldn't, you can start being proactive about setting up your own DPS windows if you would like to contribute further.

Here. Have a flowchart. I think it will help.

http://i.imgur.com/w2onVva.png

Not dpsing as a scholar is pretty bad, and there's no reason you should ever just be standing around or waiting as either healer if there's nothing to heal. But if stuff gets cleared it's not a huge issue.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Not dpsing as a scholar is pretty bad, and there's no reason you should ever just be standing around or waiting as either healer if there's nothing to heal. But if stuff gets cleared it's not a huge issue.

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As a SCH, I find DPSing feels like a waste of time. By the time I'm done applying dots, most of the stuff is half dead anyway. When I'm on WHM, spamming Holy seems infinitely more useful - but on SCH, I tend to not bother with DPS and just keep people alive, for the most part. I may DPS on bosses, but not on normal mobs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Riepah

As a SCH, I find DPSing feels like a waste of time. By the time I'm done applying dots, most of the stuff is half dead anyway. When I'm on WHM, spamming Holy seems infinitely more useful - but on SCH, I tend to not bother with DPS and just keep people alive, for the most part. I may DPS on bosses, but not on normal mobs.

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sounds like trash content comparison. How about a perspective on endgame where accuracy actually matters?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Riepah

As a SCH, I find DPSing feels like a waste of time. By the time I'm done applying dots, most of the stuff is half dead anyway. When I'm on WHM, spamming Holy seems infinitely more useful - but on SCH, I tend to not bother with DPS and just keep people alive, for the most part. I may DPS on bosses, but not on normal mobs.

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You must be so bored during the trash then, having Eos just heal for you... bane is seriously a miracle.

honestly I DPS the crap out of trash and tend to hold back (for most of the battle at least) during bosses because I'm so paranoid about everyone dying then.
I mean of course I do some stuff during bosses.

Short answer: You don't have to..

Question: Why can't you dps with your SCH on Praetorium? I find that when I play SCH, there's really no healing to do because Eos takes care of most of it..
on a WHM, stance dancing is a little bit more risky and people don't expect you to help dps unless it's for aoe.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

sounds like trash content comparison. How about a perspective on endgame where accuracy actually matters?

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If you read the OP, they're hardly talking about "endgame where accuracy actually matters".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Riepah

If you read the OP, they're hardly talking about "endgame where accuracy actually matters".

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I'm not questioning the OP, though. I'm questioning you

What? Healers doing damage? HEALERS DOING DAMAGE!?
http://data2.whicdn.com/images/160311287/large.gif

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Originally Posted by Riepah

As a SCH, I find DPSing feels like a waste of time. By the time I'm done applying dots, most of the stuff is half dead anyway.

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Originally Posted by Yuki_Tokita

What? Healers doing damage? HEALERS DOING DAMAGE!?

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http://media.edge-online.com/wp-cont...wind_waker.jpg

Can healers do damage? Yes. They do have skills that allow them to DPS, so yes they can.

But should healers be doing damage? If you party is not dying and you are comfortable in the fight/your party/your tanks/your healing/everything, then go ahead. There's no law that says you have to DPS just as there is no law that says you cannot. Just... do whatever you're comfortable with.

You are a healer, your job is to heal. Everything else is just gravy and cherry on top. You main top priority is to keep everyone HP on check, takes care of status removal, DPS is the lowest in the totem pole and the least of your problem. When your healer has to DPS to help the DPS check, guess what??? You have a bunch of DPS who have no idea on how to do their rotation... and just pew pew or die.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/2yq60m/schs_that_stack_accuracy_and_do_fcob/

http://gengame.net/wp-content/upload..._feature01.jpg

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

You are a healer, your job is to heal. Everything else is just gravy and cherry on top. You main top priority is to keep everyone HP on check, takes care of status removal, DPS is the lowest in the totem pole and the least of your problem. When your healer has to DPS to help the DPS check, guess what??? You have a bunch of DPS who have no idea on how to do their rotation... and just pew pew or die.

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Not for undergeared progression. If DPS checks aren't met you lose, so DPS is on the top of your priority :P. At least for the scholar anyway~.

Dedicated WAR and SCH DPS is like having 5 DPS it's a huge difference. Also since SE is going so SMN-friendly lately in terms on mob numbers you can skip out on the caster and go 3 melee sometimes since SCH bane can fill in that AoE gap.

We don't need endgame for this to answer the OPs question.

There is no black and white rule for "do I have to DPS".

In every content the game has to offer and the more often you do it, you will eventually get better in it and you will eventually notice that by you getting more efficient in healing/shielding the incoming damage there will be downtimes where you are doing nothing at all.

This may vary by player and group skill etc, but once you get to this level you should try to squeez some DPS in, rather than doing nothing, amirite?

Im just gonna give my opinion here. I hate healers that dont do dps. Its either a sign of lack of skill or just lazy. Everyone keeps saying they wouldnt kick a healer for not doing dps, i personally would. Not from duty finder but from anything else.

If youre healing no one is gonna complain, but if party is topped off health wise and you are sitting on full; or close to mp, expect someone to say something.

As you get more comfortable your ability to dps as a healer is actually entirely on whether your tank is taking more damage then they should on their pulls.

That said it does feel like a waste of time dpsing as sch unless I have a Bard or Blm because then I just dot and use selene for the Blm/s. I just dps because it gets boring standing there at times.

Your main priority is to keep people alive, once you are comfortable with that start trying to stance dance and dos between phases of healing. Only do it when you feel comfortable and trust other members to not face tank mechanics and aoes. Pre 50 don't tend to stance dance but post 50, pitiful army in large pulls its common for the WHM to use holy. I reccommend eye for an eye, divine seal, regen then holy spam.

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Originally Posted by Ignnis

Your main priority is to keep people alive, once you are comfortable with that start trying to stance dance and dps between phases of healing. Only do it when you feel comfortable and trust other members to not face tank mechanics and aoes. Pre 50 don't tend to stance dance but post 50, piticularly in large pulls its common for the WHM to use holy. I reccommend eye for an eye, divine seal, regen then holy spam.

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Ugh no edit on phone and auto correct be trollin.

DO YOU NEED TO DPS AS A HEALER : Absolutely not.

And her are a few more examples.

Do you need to use cool down as a tank? No.
Do you need to use heavy thrust as a dragoon? No.
Do you need to get greased lightning stacks as monk? Nope.
Do you need to use ninjutsu as a ninja? Not at all.
Do you need to use all the skills available to you on any class? Nope.

Will using ALL the skills available to you be beneficial to you and your party members, increasing your chances at clearing new and difficult content? The answer is a resounding YES! Absolutely.

This game is quite far removed from healers healing, tanks holding the boss down while the dps beat it.

Healers can DPS to assist in overall damage, and push phases predictably.
Tanks can cycle cooldowns logically and use several self healing abilities.
DPS can also use self healing abilities and assist the healers by putting up defensive buffs on the party and tanks.

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Originally Posted by EmeraldRose

DPs when I heal? I'm no where near max level on my whm, but I don't remember dpsing on my sch either when prae first came out. Is that fail?

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You are never required to DPS as a healer.

You will however feel bored at times when the party actually knows how to avoid damage. The best point of reference is Castrum Meridianum, as there will be two tanks and two healers, and you may end up with 4 DPS that may downright suck. If you can get through a run without anyone dying, then you can probably find the windows to DPS in. Certain dungeons I'd probably not recommend ever DPS'ing (Aurum Vale for one) because the healing requirements are excessive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Riepah

As a SCH, I find DPSing feels like a waste of time. By the time I'm done applying dots, most of the stuff is half dead anyway. When I'm on WHM, spamming Holy seems infinitely more useful - but on SCH, I tend to not bother with DPS and just keep people alive, for the most part. I may DPS on bosses, but not on normal mobs.

---

I think the opposite is true. DPS'ing feels like a waste of time on healer because an entire switch to Cleric Stance lets you fire off any two DPS attacks or one Holy in that 5 second window before you can switch back. Holy does maybe 600 Damage (900 Crit), while a BLM casting pretty much anything does more damage and they have the same DPS cast speed but Astral Fire winds up making them do 5 times as much damage. As a point of reference, WHM can take Blizzard II from THM, but even with Cleric Stance, it does much weaker damage. In all the dungeons that you can't use Holy, DPS'ing as a healer lets you switch to Cleric stance, apply the DoT's, and then switch back.

There's rarely a situation where the Healer's DPS'ing makes a difference, since you're not contributing 25% of the DPS, you're contributing maybe 3% at most. The only time that it makes any real sense to DPS is when no damage is being taken, and won't be taken for a long enough window. Syrcus Tower has one phase like this during meteorfall. Ultima Weapon has a phase like this (though usually the Limit Break is fired here.)

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

If youre healing no one is gonna complain, but if party is topped off health wise and you are sitting on full; or close to mp, expect someone to say something.

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That has never happened. Likewise, most Bards never use their Song skills, and nobody uses their self-healing skills. It's rather silly to think that the Healer should be contributing to DPS while the rest of the party does nothing to help heal themselves or... avoid taking damage entirely.

If the Healer "has to" DPS, then that is a tactless admission that you think the DPS are not pulling their weight. If a DPS casts Cure/Physick on another player, that's the DPS tactlessly admitting they think the Healer is awful. Similar statements can be made about players casting Stone Skin or Protect that aren't the healer. (Keeping in mind that it's not available to CNJ/WHM before level 34)

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Originally Posted by Whiston

Do you need to use cool down as a tank? No.

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Tankbusters say hi.

But I would say that more comparable to your examples than DPS is using things like E4E, Virus, Divine Seal, Surecast, and other healer skills which, by too many, get completely overlooked and unused. Even Regen in some cases. So to the OP I would say... DPSing is great if you're comfortable with the fight, or if you're a SCH and want to make the WHM do most of the work, but before that, make sure you really use all your healing skills to the fullest and are comfortable with doing so.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

That has never happened. Likewise, most Bards never use their Song skills, and nobody uses their self-healing skills. It's rather silly to think that the Healer should be contributing to DPS while the rest of the party does nothing to help heal themselves or... avoid taking damage entirely.

If the Healer "has to" DPS, then that is a tactless admission that you think the DPS are not pulling their weight. If a DPS casts Cure/Physick on another player, that's the DPS tactlessly admitting they think the Healer is awful. Similar statements can be made about players casting Stone Skin or Protect that aren't the healer. (Keeping in mind that it's not available to CNJ/WHM before level 34)

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So what you're saying is that "because others are playing half assed, you should play half assed". Excellent advice, I think?

Also, the contrary of whatever you claim can be made as well:
Bards never use their song skills -> bards actually do use their songs when needed
Nobody uses self-healing skills -> Warriors use these all the time. Whenever a DPS player uses them they simply go unnoticed or become pure overheal (Bloodbath primarily)
Rest of the party does nothing to help -> There are parties out there who actually do. Even if not the entire party does it as whole, some of them do.
Healer dps never made a difference -> party wipe at <5% because neither healer did any form of damage
Healer dps never made a difference part 2 -> push phases quicker which would save both healers MP. T12 being the prime example
Healer dps never made a difference part 3 -> Even in content like CT, ST and WoD. ST being killing crazy dog lady, Rugby-man and phantom of the opera guy before their final mechanic happens. Effectively saving everyone several minutes, especially on the rugby guy.

Everything you cram out is extremely subjective and one-sided. In the other topic you even acted as if you made this game yourself. 3% damage contribution? 25% of a dps class? Have you even set foot in the other half of the game yet? Of course a healer can only contribute 3% of the total damage in Crystal Tower. That's simply because of the sheer number of people there. Everyone's share gets smaller. Present some facts to support those claims before making them.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

So what you're saying is that "because others are playing half assed, you should play half assed". Excellent advice, I think?

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Don't put words in my mouth. It's not the healers job to take up the slack of half-assed players who only want to be carried through content. The larger the party, the more frequently this happens. You should not be DPS'ing while there are people that need healing.

http://i57.tinypic.com/219vwqo.png
Case in point. When Alliance A and Alliance B have full HP, and Alliance C nearly wipes out... why is that? We've probably all been there where you get the bum party where nobody is paying attention to anything but themselves.

http://i57.tinypic.com/2rm5vfo.png
Let's see:

- Someone complains about dying
- WHM is DPS'ing while there are healable targets in the Alliance
- Bard not Singing, do they have no TP?
- BLM firing Fire III during Umbra Ice , which is more likely a an error on the part of the BLM.

I'm not taking screenshots just to go "oh look at the dumb PUG groups I get stuck with", rather I've been trying to grab screenshots precisely to use against the boneheaded "WHM must DPS" arguments. Both screenshots are from the same WoD run, but different Bosses.

The 3% argument was against a 4-man light party, because the DPS are DPS'ing 100% of the time. Even if you were only healing 50% of the time, if one encounter lasts one minute, and you spend 30 seconds DPS'ing, the DPS's have been DPS'ing for 60 seconds and the Tank's damage counts as DPS. So you have 240 seconds to consider, of which you provide 30 seconds of DPS time, at most that is 12%. Nobody gets that much time. You get 5 seconds, that is closer to 2%. The longer it takes to defeat something, the less relevant your damage is. So unless you can wipe everything out in one hit, your time is better spent healing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Don't put words in my mouth. It's not the healers job to take up the slack of half-assed players who only want to be carried through content. The larger the party, the more frequently this happens. You should not be DPS'ing while there are people that need healing.

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You said something in this context yourself:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

That has never happened. Likewise, most Bards never use their Song skills, and nobody uses their self-healing skills. It's rather silly to think that the Healer should be contributing to DPS while the rest of the party does nothing to help heal themselves or... avoid taking damage entirely.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

http://i57.tinypic.com/219vwqo.png
Case in point. When Alliance A and Alliance B have full HP, and Alliance C nearly wipes out... why is that? We've probably all been there where you get the bum party where nobody is paying attention to anything but themselves.

http://i57.tinypic.com/2rm5vfo.png
Let's see:

- Someone complains about dying
- WHM is DPS'ing while there are healable targets in the Alliance
- Bard not Singing, do they have no TP?
- BLM firing Fire III during Umbra Ice , which is more likely a an error on the part of the BLM.

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Oh look, more examples of Crystal Tower content. But there's alot of info missing:
1) Your LB bar is consumed not too long ago. Judging from the chat, Cloud of darkness just used "Flood of darkness" (or whatever is called) or those hyper clouds appeared. You guys also have this vulnerability stack up. So it's already in the later phases. Might have been those worms as well.
2) With the fact your group alone has vulnerability up stacks and so does the tank and a good number more in the other alliances, it may have been inevitable that they died in the first place.
3) It's also possible that people were getting lasered on the spot because whoever got marked didn't move
4) The fact your tank is in sword oath indicates that your tank isn't tanking. So why weren't you helping out them healing? Have you even examined what the tank was wearing? Maybe he/she wasn't properly geared to main tank and was simply getting trucked. Even moreso with vulnerability up.
5) Someone complained about dying, but that's in your party and that was during the clouds phase from the looks of it. So he probably had too many vulnerability stacks and took a fireball/meteor thing or the alliance failed on a few markers,
6) WHM was DPSing while there are healable targets in the alliance. So why is your MP pool nearly full? Don't be the pot that calls the kettle black. There's also no indication how many targets were healable outside your party. Only 3 from the first picture. There's also no indication how long ago that was. It could very well have been like 2 seconds ago and you just took this screenshot and made some random, wild claims. So back to the first point (1), your MP is nearly full while the other healer's is slightly spent. This could mean the other healer did all the AoE healing while you ran around doing -something-. Whatever it is you were planning to do. Running to the spot for the meteors while there's already someone on it?
7) That's one bard not singing, bring data of more samples if you want to prove your point on this. Also, songs consume MP, not TP. There's also the possibility that there was already foe requiem up, then why would he use it himself? It's not like it stacks
8) Black Mage casting Fire III during Umbral Ice is actually the right thing to do. What are you smoking? Sure, it's not your job and inb4 you defend yourself with "Not my job so I didn't know". Then don't make claims as if he's the one not knowing what he's doing here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

I'm not taking screenshots just to go "oh look at the dumb PUG groups I get stuck with", rather I've been trying to grab screenshots precisely to use against the boneheaded "WHM must DPS" arguments. Both screenshots are from the same WoD run, but different Bosses.

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Two pictures one being cut out completely where it is impossible to determine whether the screenshots actually belong together. You even cut out the most crucial parts of the "bigger" one that could determine which phase it is. This is called evidence fabrication.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The 3% argument was against a 4-man light party, because the DPS are DPS'ing 100% of the time. Even if you were only healing 50% of the time, if one encounter lasts one minute, and you spend 30 seconds DPS'ing, the DPS's have been DPS'ing for 60 seconds and the Tank's damage counts as DPS. So you have 240 seconds to consider, of which you provide 30 seconds of DPS time, at most that is 12%. Nobody gets that much time. You get 5 seconds, that is closer to 2%. The longer it takes to defeat something, the less relevant your damage is. So unless you can wipe everything out in one hit, your time is better spent healing.

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And still no concrete numbers or video footage. I just did Halatali in cleric's stance for 90% of the time, meaning I was DPSing 90% of the time while no one died. If this statement would not be valid, then the credibility of your statements can also be questioned.

Edit:
Actually, I can somewhat prove that those pictures don't belong with each other.

http://i.imgur.com/PAdG7rF.jpg

Looking at your interface, Alliance A - Even if you censored it, it's logical it's Alliance A - is a bit in front of Cloud of Darkness, while Cloud herself is hardly visible bar a strand of her hair. Judging from that position of every element in your HUD you didn't bother customizing your interface, so it's safe to assume Alliance C is right next to Alliance A, which is cut off for your convenience.
http://i.imgur.com/a01bWLM.png?1

So what does this lead to? Let's go back to your picture of Alliance C:
http://i57.tinypic.com/219vwqo.png

You didn't censor out the alliance name, unlike with Alliance A. And there's actually a bit of background texture there above the party box. But mostly black with a bit of purple/red. So where's Cloud of darkness in this picture? There aren't even any light particles from the mechanics anywhere near it. Even if cloud falls out of the picture and there happens to be no mechanic particles, the surrounding air doesn't even match up with the background of the alliance box. I believe the conclusion is pretty obvious by now.

Even if you're not comfortable going full stance dancing/dpsing as a scholar, try to find time to lay down Shadow Flare whenever possible. This is not for the DoT effect; it's for the slow/heavy which helps keep your tank from getting hit as much. Of course, the extra time you buy yourself then will also give you more time to dps if you so choose...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Don't put words in my mouth. It's not the healers job to take up the slack of half-assed players who only want to be carried through content. The larger the party, the more frequently this happens. You should not be DPS'ing while there are people that need healing.

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Staaahp. Healer DPS is legit.

http://puu.sh/gwr0X/01fb9ec9ac.png

@Lyrica: We already know from more than one thread that this KisaiTenshi person bases their entire notion of appropriate healer gameplay on worst-case scenarios that crop up in alliance raids with other people who similarly do not know how to play their classes well.

I can understand someone just not wanting to try to improve, even if I strongly disagree with that mindset; what I don't understand is why they would actively express their opinion that subpar, tunnel-visioned gameplay is the ideal.

I tried articulate arguments with well-reasoned points; they have no effect. It seems that most players who have adopted this mindset are determined to defend to the death their entitlement to mediocre gameplay.

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Originally Posted by EmeraldRose

DPs when I heal? I'm no where near max level on my whm, but I don't remember dpsing on my sch either when prae first came out. Is that fail?

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Your DPS contribution is worthless. Do it for fun if you want to, but don't feel pressured to do it. You'll probably start DPSing anyway after a while due to boredom, dungeons don't require much healing.

Ignore raiders talking about Coil, it's a completely different situation, but they never fail to bring it up even though it has nothing to do with this.

In direct response to the OP, I'll say what I say to everyone that asks this or discusses this question~

As a career healer, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I wouldn't go too far as saying damned in general. But by bringing it to the forums, yes, that's true.

Simply because DPSing isn't mandatory. Definitely nice as a group as whole, but not something that would brand you as a terrible white mage/scholar if you don't DPS - Which applies to Scholar more often than White Mage.

The direct cause (more or less) of this whole argument lies in a different topic. A more recent one: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...g-damage/page8

It was basically the casual player base vs endgame player base. Long story short: Arguments frequently happen between these two groups with one bring brand as elitist, those-who-no-longer-have-fun or "spreadsheet nerds". It's almost like they're bringing in the high school community in. Where the kids who get good grades are being brand as "nerds" while the bullies are treated as celebrities.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Moqi

Your DPS contribution is worthless. Do it for fun if you want to, but don't feel pressured to do it. You'll probably start DPSing anyway after a while due to boredom, dungeons don't require much healing.

Ignore raiders talking about Coil, it's a completely different situation, but they never fail to bring it up even though it has nothing to do with this.

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It's flat-out untrue that healer DPS contribution is worthless in dungeons. The only difference with Coil is that DPS-checks, control of phase changes, and overall time allotted to complete the duty all matter much more, whereas you can be lazy in a dungeon and still stumble through.

Healers can contribute large amounts of damage in a dungeon run and should be encouraged to do so while their primary responsibility (not allowing players to die) is being met.