itt: let's whine about chocobo race balance

-Every item in the game has some kind of counterplay except Briars, which can't be reflected, esuna'd, or avoided except by not letting a player near you have Briars, which is unavoidable on narrow tracks like Sagolii. Briars placed in narrow areas deal more stamina damage than freaking Bacchus Water, which is single-target, reflectable, esuna-able, and has a counter ability. Stacking Stamina doesn't help against them. At -least- make this garbage Choco Reflectable or countered by Tireless, or just reduce the amount of stamina damage done by it. "Don't be near other players" isn't a counterplay option on narrow tracks like Sargolii.

-Stats seem wildly imbalanced, at least in low-grade tracks. I don't feel any reason to raise my Cunning unless I'm playing at high ping, which basically turns it into a stat tax for slow connections. Stamina and Endurance don't seem to do jack, especially compared to the wildly high amounts of damage Stamina-killer items do.

-Not balance, but can we please try to prioritize matching players with each other over NPCs? It's annoying to see "Races are currently full!" on high-pop servers despite half my opponents always being NPCs when I actually get in. It's a weird space allocation issue.

-who invented Choco Meteor. Is this avoidable in any way? it's seriously worse than blue shells in mario kart like come on. is there even a pattern to who gets hit by this thing?

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Originally Posted by Krr

-who invented Choco Meteor. Is this avoidable in any way? it's seriously worse than blue shells in mario kart like come on. is there even a pattern to who gets hit by this thing?

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Having Hero Tonic up will evade it completely. The 'pattern' is anyone in front of the player using. IE: 1st place uses it, no one hit, 8th place uses it, everyone hit.

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Originally Posted by Krr

-Every item in the game has some kind of counterplay except Briars, which can't be reflected, esuna'd, or avoided except by not letting a player near you have Briars, which is unavoidable on narrow tracks like Sagolii. Briars placed in narrow areas deal more stamina damage than freaking Bacchus Water, which is single-target, reflectable, esuna-able, and has a counter ability. Stacking Stamina doesn't help against them. At -least- make this garbage Choco Reflectable or countered by Tireless, or just reduce the amount of stamina damage done by it. "Don't be near other players" isn't a counterplay option on narrow tracks like Sargolii.

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Tireless prevents all forms of stamina reduction, including Briar Caltrops. Sprint also can let you escape it, and I think also prevents stamina loss, but I'm not fully sure on that. I'll need to try it out some more, but I believe I saw someone say it does. Hero Tonic also works.

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-Stats seem wildly imbalanced, at least in low-grade tracks. I don't feel any reason to raise my Cunning unless I'm playing at high ping, which basically turns it into a stat tax for slow connections. Stamina and Endurance don't seem to do jack, especially compared to the wildly high amounts of damage Stamina-killer items do.

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The only stat that I feel is not balanced very well, as far as I've seen, is max speed. However, it's possible the other stats may become more important in the later races. Rating goes up to 300 most likely, and it already sounds like it gets pretty crazy at R-140. I don't think we've seen everything it has to offer.

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-Not balance, but can we please try to prioritize matching players with each other over NPCs? It's annoying to see "Races are currently full!" on high-pop servers despite half my opponents always being NPCs when I actually get in. It's a weird space allocation issue.

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It gives you 30 seconds for other people to join your match. If nobody joins, it fills the rest with NPCs. I think it's working fine. An option to queue for a longer waiting period would be a good fix for people who want to race with more players.

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-who invented Choco Meteor. Is this avoidable in any way? it's seriously worse than blue shells in mario kart like come on. is there even a pattern to who gets hit by this thing?

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Tireless prevents the stamina loss, but not the debuff. Hero Tonic completely negates it. I think it hits everyone in front of the person who uses it, but it might have a range.

Those caltrops... need a heavy rebalancing.

The fact that Caltrops can be only avoided by using one item (Tonic) already makes it quite OP, especially taking into account that it is almost impossible to avoid due to a lack of deceleration, or lanes too narrow dodge. A 30% stamina loss is also incredibly debilitating considering that other debuffs, like heavy or bacchus, have short durations or are hit/miss (because sometimes getting bacchus-ed is beneficial or a non-issue, cuz sometimes you were sprinting already).

Also these things drop like candy. I've seen chests with 3 caltrops in a row. And everyone tends to drop them at once, so it's a huge clusterbomb of thorns that leaves people with almost no stamina left. And again, you can't dodge... because there's just nowhere to go. A single caltrop alone can lose you the race, but getting hit by multiple, you might as well just afk and corpsegrind.

A simple reduction in the amount of damage received would solve this.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

It gives you 30 seconds for other people to join your match. If nobody joins, it fills the rest with NPCs. I think it's working fine. An option to queue for a longer waiting period would be a good fix for people who want to race with more players.

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Yeah, I'd take up to a minute or two to try and get matched with more players. It bugs me a lot on some crowded servers (ie Excalibur) where our race instance roster is regularly full - with races that, IME, typically contain up to two players and 6 NPCs.

The other stuff is good info, by the way - I had no idea that Hero Tonic actually made you immune to attack items and skills, as the description is just 'It improves your chocobo's abilities![sic]"

The Briars should be made less frequent.

Briars are a pain but not really an issue either. I've done plenty fo races and honestly, I do not think there an issue.

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Originally Posted by Syrellaris

Briars are a pain but not really an issue either

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lol, not an issue. If I get hit by a caltrop near the beginning of a race I just afk the rest of it because theres not a chance in hell I can finish anywhere decent.

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Originally Posted by DrOstler

lol, not an issue. If I get hit by a caltrop near the beginning of a race I just afk the rest of it because theres not a chance in hell I can finish anywhere decent.

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I've had matches with multiple players(and even npc's) hitting me with Briar, sometimes twice in a row and I still manage to end in the top 3. Like I said, they are a pain but it is something you can deal with pretty easy. Yes sometimes it might be hard to avoid, but it can be avoided even in the small pathways.

And how does one avoid it in a narrow path?

Level Head: Increases chances of resisting Frenzied status by 10%.

Gimme a sec let me measure the usefulness of this trait...

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LoL

Or how about the lag where you can go through a chest and it not register or it not loading till after you pass

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Originally Posted by NyssaElf

Or how about the lag where you can go through a chest and it not register or it not loading till after you pass

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This is really annoying. But from what I see, the racing itself isn't laggy, but just the animations. When you tell it to move left, it moves left right away but the animation takes longer than the actual position update does to the server. That's what makes it looks like you go right through without getting it. You've just got to imagine where you actually are and yeah, it sucks. Makes those chests that are on the other side of where you are a complete gamble

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Originally Posted by Syrellaris

I've had matches with multiple players(and even npc's) hitting me with Briar, sometimes twice in a row and I still manage to end in the top 3. Like I said, they are a pain but it is something you can deal with pretty easy. Yes sometimes it might be hard to avoid, but it can be avoided even in the small pathways.

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Not really,if someone activates briar and are near you,you can't speed past them unless you have sprint shoes,so your only recourse is to hit the brakes.Problem is that slowing down takes quite a long time so you're almost guaranteed to be hit for at least one tick.(that's if the activating player doesn't have their eye on you and matches your speed,in which case you're screwed no matter what)

In saying that,i don't really have much of a problem with it,i don't think it's particularly overpowered,a single stamina tablet can make a massive difference in a race too for you if no-one else is getting status enhancing drops.

They(the abilities) all seem to be pretty useful and game changing in their own right(except bars water lol,that's a fail item imo,gravity ball isn't much better,it should be a little stronger i feel)

The only time that briar seems overpowered to me is when one or more racers all activate it in a built up area of racers(usually at first chest),at that point it can be very difficult to see who picked what item up and who to avoid etc,but for the rest of the race as racers get drawn further and further apart,it's easy to see who's been picking up what and to plan ahead.

Chocometeor is utter BS, especially when something so "rare" gets used 3 times in a row once I reach the goal line. =__=

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Originally Posted by KodiHivaer

Chocometeor is utter BS, especially when something so "rare" gets used 3 times in a row once I reach the goal line. =__=

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From my experience, Choco Meteors seem to come in groups. If a box has choco meteor, it likely has multiple of them.

Question! Can Choco Meteors be reflected? I've not been too observant about this.

Does anyone know what determines the amount of stamina Briar's Caltrop will drain? I don't understand why sometimes I'll see people lose between 5% and 10% when struck and others will lose anywhere from 20% to 30%. I thought maybe it was the duration of contact but I've lost up to 30% despite making quick evasive action. I don't really mind the frequency it appears, but I do mind that there's no apparent consistency in how it performs.

Also, can someone clarify how much stamina Choco Ease actually recovers? It says 50 in the description, which I initially assumed to be 50% but having used it numerous times it seems more like 0.50%. I think the ability would serve better if the Heavy status lasted more than three seconds. Graviball isn't exactly a game changer like Briar and Meteor, but being able to completely nullify a Heavy debuff that slows you down by maybe 8 seconds would be a pretty big deal.

I believe it is around 30% of your current Stamina, so say when you get hit by it while at 90% you are going to loose more then the person getting hit with 30% stamina left. @Honourlessichi all I am saying is I have no issues with it, I can avoid it most of the time and the few times I do get hit I can deal with. Sure I have bad races or days just like anyone else and yes that means I get hit by 2-3 briars in a race too, sometimes its a clear loss, most of the time I can still make top 3 or even first.

ChocoMeteor can not be reflected, The Hero Tonic completely negates it and the Stamina pill will cancel any stamina drain from it. Choco esuna can cure the lame status.
Bars water can be a game changing item ver been hit by 3 in a row? It increases the rate at wich your Stamina depletes because of the Heavy lathered state.
Gravity ball, is not powerfull but, it will determine a win for you at the later Ratings 100+
the NPC's are insane, raced Speed Racer yet? Before your even close to his stats it is 1 of the only ways to beat him.
Choco Ease will literally restore 50 stamina not sure how the value is determined but Choco ease II will restore 100 and Choco Ease III will Restore 150, It is a very situational Abillity because of the requirment that your hit by a Gravity Ball. The later ratings Suck cause it feels to me like the NPC's learn your habbits and abillitys.
1 of the best things to do if your first Place is to leave briars in the chest for the rear field to wipe each other out (unless there right on you), if there is a gravity ball or a bars water before the briars take them and just waste em. take Sprint shoes and Stamina pills always same with hero tonics. Sometimes it is actually better to get hit by a gravity ball/Bars Water then taking it and letting the person behind you have the sprint shoes, stamina pill or anything else that could give them an adventage on you.
I am on my 6th generation Chocobo atm And I have done a lot of races.

Not always you can dodge briar. When you are clustered, I've been occasionally brutally comboed by the one behind me casting heavy and another one sprinting to my ass with briars, you are heavied, blocked and briared, absolutely nothing you can do when this happens, do not claim the opposite lol. The only solution to this is:

1 - Not have horrible luck like me.
2 - Avoid getting clustered.

The second one however isn't much of a solution, because if you slow down at the beginning to prevent getting clustered with the other chocobos, there are always the 1-2 chocobos with head start + choco dash that just get too far and then they are practically unreachable, so slowing down at the beginning is an almost guarantee you won't even smell the first spots.

I love to wine and Chocobo Race! I prefer a nice Riesling whilst I guide my chocobo on to victory!

Whenever I try to run with the cluster I typically regret it, usually for the same reason of briar spam. My experience only goes up to G3/R100 races, but either trying to stick to a wall on first box or hang back barely behind the cluster works best for me. When I hang back even the ones with head start are not entirely unreachable, unless they get lucky hero-dash back to back etc.

Otherwise after the first box, some start to save stam, others burn it, and I weave through when there are clear openings. Every bird is different but usually if someone at that time tries to briar me, I have enough accel/cunning to dodge after the first hit, or not get hit at all. That all said, I typically just stick to the wall on first box, as everyone is tunnel-vision on the cluster they don't care about the noob who forgot to pick up the item. xD

The more you play, and the more observant you are of who gets what item, the more you can avoid briars. Powerful items like briars ensure that skillful play (and some luck) will balance chocobos with better stats. Otherwise the better stat chocobo will always win, and that would make for a pretty boring game.

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Originally Posted by Mikagaru

Bars water can be a game changing item ver been hit by 3 in a row? It increases the rate at wich your Stamina depletes because of the Heavy lathered state.
Gravity ball, is not powerfull but, it will determine a win for you at the later Ratings 100+
the NPC's are insane, raced Speed Racer yet? Before your even close to his stats it is 1 of the only ways to beat him.

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I guess i could be biased,my chocobos are in their lowest possible tier they can race in until forced into the next and are pretty good breeds,so both the water and gravity ball have never ever cost me a race,despite being hit by them multiple times.

I think Bacchus' Water is kind of a dud since a lot of people winning the races that I've done seem to be able to just sprint the entire way through negating its effects. My chocobo is only R30ish though so feel free to correct me if Stamina management (when caltrops aren't involved) is more important in higher ranks.

My chocobo learned Choco Steal and it seems kind of bad. Most of the items in races are best used immediately so no one holds on to them, and on top of that it's only a 50% success rate. I feel like it should put a buff on you that has a chance of stealing an item used while it's active and possibly place the stolen item into an extra item slot separate from the normal one.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

I think Bacchus' Water is kind of a dud since a lot of people winning the races that I've done seem to be able to just sprint the entire way through negating its effects. My chocobo is only R30ish though so feel free to correct me if Stamina management (when caltrops aren't involved) is more important in higher ranks.

My chocobo learned Choco Steal and it seems kind of bad. Most of the items in races are best used immediately so no one holds on to them, and on top of that it's only a 50% success rate. I feel like it should put a buff on you that has a chance of stealing an item used while it's active and possibly place the stolen item into an extra item slot separate from the normal one.

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3/4 of the time that people end up getting it, the water does at most, minimal "damage" to the target. If it's combined with something though, such as the Heavy effect, it REALLY makes you suffer. Likewise, if someone times it when they're around another racer using Briar and they're running, ooh the mayhem.

Steal is unfortunately in the same boat as the water in how highly situational it is (partly due to the RNG of successfully stealing). The NPCs have successfully stolen Dash and Hero tonics from me before, all while I was trying to spam the item immediately after getting it lol.

The counter to any item is to simply know who has what and to use that effectively to your advantage.

That being said, Tireless does prevent damage from Briars and negates the stamina damage from Meteor. Hero Tonic prevents any and all debuffs, including being lathered.

Also locking down people's items with the Distract ability is a good way to screw them, particularly when you know there's two item drops coming up that are in close proximity and you're preventing them from using both.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

My chocobo learned Choco Steal and it seems kind of bad.

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Choco Steal III is 90% rate and it makes for very exciting, strategic gameplay. Had a Heavy powerup on me and I crept up to the guy in the front who was waiting to unleash his Briar on me. Quickly Heavied him + steal his Briar and smacked him with his own medicine. There's a lot of combos you can do with it, unlike the silly Dash-dash-dash ability that requires little skill yet nets you a win easily.

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Originally Posted by Motorball

Does anyone know what determines the amount of stamina Briar's Caltrop will drain? I don't understand why sometimes I'll see people lose between 5% and 10% when struck and others will lose anywhere from 20% to 30%. I thought maybe it was the duration of contact but I've lost up to 30% despite making quick evasive action. I don't really mind the frequency it appears, but I do mind that there's no apparent consistency in how it performs.

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Briar, like Choco Shock/Silence, is an aura skill that remains active for a few seconds once it goes up. It's not just avoiding the initial pop with Briar; if you stay in it, or leave and come back in, you'll suffer additional stamina damage. It's probably something like 10% per second based on my eyeballing it.

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Originally Posted by Aphel

Choco Steal III is 90% rate and it makes for very exciting, strategic gameplay. Had a Heavy powerup on me and I crept up to the guy in the front who was waiting to unleash his Briar on me. Quickly Heavied him + steal his Briar and smacked him with his own medicine. There's a lot of combos you can do with it, unlike the silly Dash-dash-dash ability that requires little skill yet nets you a win easily.

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One instance it's good in does not a good ability make. The only item it feasibly works on is Briars as the others are best thrown out as soon as you get them. On top of that even the highest rank has a success rate that isn't 100% and you can't even see when people have items. You know why the Dash stuff works? Because it's never a bad idea to use speed boosts and it doesn't have a failure rate.

To put it into perspective, the reason stealing worked in Mario Kart is because almost all items were held onto for the perfect moment as stuff has to be aimed, you don't want to use boosts on turns, etc. The stealing item temporarily made you invincible too so even if no one had any items there was some benefit to using it.

Hell, everything needs some kind of risk/reward so adding risks to Dashes and such would be fine with me.

Then there's me waiting until we get a blue shell...

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Originally Posted by Mikagaru

Choco Ease will literally restore 50 stamina not sure how the value is determined but Choco ease II will restore 100 and Choco Ease III will Restore 150, It is a very situational Abillity because of the requirment that your hit by a Gravity Ball.

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You can use those Slow Trap to use Choco Ease, too.

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Originally Posted by Aphel

Choco Steal III is 90% rate and it makes for very exciting, strategic gameplay. Had a Heavy powerup on me and I crept up to the guy in the front who was waiting to unleash his Briar on me. Quickly Heavied him + steal his Briar and smacked him with his own medicine. There's a lot of combos you can do with it, unlike the silly Dash-dash-dash ability that requires little skill yet nets you a win easily.

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Please don't start a discussion about "skill" in Chocobo Race. There is really not much involved, by far not enough to get elitist about it.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

Please don't start a discussion about "skill" in Chocobo Race. There is really not much involved, by far not enough to get elitist about it.

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I wasn't starting a discussion. Since we've gone this far we might as well then. While to the casual eye it seems like there's 'not much involved', when you end up with a Chocobo with Reflect/Shock/Steal/Ease, you really have to be smart about using it in order to utilize it to its full potential. Therein lies this 'skill'. Deciding whether to take the box or leave it behind, let someone overtake you in order to get better box content, keeping track of who has taken which powerup, choosing when to sprint/relax your Chocobo. All to determine whether you'll cross the finishing line 1st or 8th. Which part of all of these isn't skill?

And when you have something like Dash III, you have to realize that skill itself bypasses the majority of what I've said with just a single click.