Need GM Clarification on Player Casinos/Lotteries

A user on reddit today just posted a screenshot of a conversation between him and a GM about Player driven lotteries being against the ToS.

However, a previous post was made by a GM that seems to conflict with this decision?

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

Greetings!

Since this is certainly a concern that has been anticipated by the GMs, I can provide you some preliminary answers to your questions.

Abuse of the /random command to flood chat can be considered a spam violation and should be reported to a GM for investigation. This can be just spamming random repeatedly in public or making offers that incite the spamming of the random command from others. If you know that you don't want to see random results, a chat filter will be added under Character Configuration > General Tab > Log Filters > Announcements > Random Number Messages. While this can certainly help people who want to activate the filter, the fact that there is a filter for random results does not mean that spamming of the random command is ok because others could just block out spam if they didn't want to be bothered by it.

As for casinos, they are treated like trade agreements. This means that you should ensure clear rules are agreed upon in the game before engaging in this type of agreement, since the GMs can only enforce the terms of the agreement that was made in the game. So long as the agreement is upheld, the GMs should not need to get involved. If you do not feel that the agreement is upheld, you should report that to a GM for investigation for Fraud.

While pointed out in each paragraph, I will reiterate that suspected violations of the rules should be reported to a GM for investigation, and a GM will determine if there was a violation of the rules and take appropriate action based on the results of that investigation. I hope this helps to clear up the GM position on the new feature.

LGM Enkrateia

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Is this "change" in decision based on some other factor about this lottery we do not know of and that is why it is different or are all player created casino type games against the ToS?

Greetings!

This concern was brought to my attention earlier today, and I can certainly see how this would be confusing. Having looked into the situation a bit deeper, I believe I can offer a bit of clarification about this. The main point of distinction that is relevant here is the difference between casinos (which cover a wide variety of games) and lotteries.

Casinos, while diverse, are ultimately trade agreements handled and resolved entirely within the game at the time of the agreement. When mentioning that it is handled entirely within the game, this covers all aspects of the exchange, including the use of the in game /random command. By remaining within the game, all the details of the exchange can be verified and held as equal for everyone.

Lotteries tend to have a larger scale, which necessitates external tracking and handling. When considering a large scale event like a lottery, consider that you cannot be sure that the agreement you are making with the other person is the same one that another person is making, and listing the rules on an external site means they could be changed without notice. Because this cannot be tracked or verified from the standpoint of a GM investigation, these types of exchanges are discouraged. While a small scale, immediate lottery type exchange could be possible, the large scale lotteries are a fraud concern that has us encouraging them not being advertised in the game.

I hope this helps explain things for you. I'll keep an eye on the thread in the event that I need to add additional clarifications.

LGM Enkrateia

Thank you for the clarification on Casionos and Lotteries! Would a small scale player run triple triad tournament fall under the former or latter? i.e. 1,000 gil buy-in, winner take all tournament for an 8 player party. Rules are published in game chat, seeding is handled via /random, the winner of each game reports in chat to the host... I would think that would fall under the "casino" rules. However, at what point would it become "large scale" and involve external tracking and handling? Is there a particular amount of players or amount of gil that would have to be traded to classify it as such?

Thank you for the additional clarification.

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Originally Posted by CastyMcgee

Thank you for the clarification on Casionos and Lotteries! Would a small scale player run triple triad tournament fall under the former or latter? i.e. 1,000 gil buy-in, winner take all tournament for an 8 player party. Rules are published in game chat, seeding is handled via /random, the winner of each game reports in chat to the host... I would think that would fall under the "casino" rules. However, at what point would it become "large scale" and involve external tracking and handling? Is there a particular amount of players or amount of gil that would have to be traded to classify it as such?

Thank you for the additional clarification.

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While I'm obviously not a GM, I think you sort of answered your own question. It sounds like all info related to the trade agreement is in the game? It's large enough to involve external tracking/handling when you set up a website and use skype/TS/Vent/etc to, well, track and handle it.

Thank you LGM Enkrateia!

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Originally Posted by CastyMcgee

Thank you for the clarification on Casionos and Lotteries! Would a small scale player run triple triad tournament fall under the former or latter? i.e. 1,000 gil buy-in, winner take all tournament for an 8 player party. Rules are published in game chat, seeding is handled via /random, the winner of each game reports in chat to the host... I would think that would fall under the "casino" rules. However, at what point would it become "large scale" and involve external tracking and handling? Is there a particular amount of players or amount of gil that would have to be traded to classify it as such?

Thank you for the additional clarification.

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I think for the GMs to have a good conclusion, is it easy for them track and verify the winner of the games. I imagine that the /random shows up in the logs which is why having the rules and time stamp etc are what makes player casinos trackable and verifiable. But I think that requires a GM to reply and not speculation.

Or let's do away with all the spam completely.

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Originally Posted by ExKage

But I think that requires a GM to reply and not speculation.

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I agree, but on the forums at least, they seldom repeat themselves unless there's actually new info. So...

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

Because this cannot be tracked or verified from the standpoint of a GM investigation, these types of exchanges are discouraged. While a small scale, immediate lottery type exchange could be possible, the large scale lotteries are a fraud concern that has us encouraging them not being advertised in the game.

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If you want really specific clarifications for your specific rule setup... I'd recommend putting in a support request in game. Then it's on your account and if an issue comes up, it's easy to refer back to.

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Originally Posted by Starrywisdom

Or let's do away with all the spam completely.

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Perfect logic! They should do away with dances to so we don't get spammed by those! /s

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

I agree, but on the forums at least, they seldom repeat themselves unless there's actually new info. So...



If you want really specific clarifications for your specific rule setup... I'd recommend putting in a support request in game. Then it's on your account and if an issue comes up, it's easy to refer back to.

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Thanks for the feedback! I was looking for new information regarding what a "large" scale operation is, hoping that there would be a black and white number translation. However, upon rereading the response, it seems that as long as all details can be tracked in game, it can be classified as a small. Now the question relates to the phrase "is handled at the time of the arrangement". I wonder if that is a set time limit, or it again is a gray area that can be covered by whatever can be tracked in game. I think you are right, and the best course of action would be to put in a support request in game. Thanks for the responses again! I hope you're all enjoying TT as much as I am... I just need to finally get that Terra card to drop!!!

Something came up in an ingame discussion recently, actually, that I'd like some GM input on if possible. When making a roll with the /random command, it doesn't seem that the range of the roll appears in the chat window. Is there any way for a player to independently verify that another player is making the full roll they claim to be? I'm worried that it would be too easy for someone to roll a narrower range than they claim to in order to stack the odds.

For instance: The imaginary Lottery Jack says that any number from 600-1000 is a win, with rolls of 950 or higher scoring triple. To keep the odds firmly on his side, Lottery Jack often types /random 900 instead of /random 1000, eliminating the possibility of a triple win and greatly reducing the player's odds without their knowledge. Nothing I've observed when studying the /random command would allow a player to notice this was happening, and if Lottery Jack plays it subtle enough a GM may never be called to investigate and discover his cheating.

Have I overlooked something in the way the /random command displays that would prevent this kind of cheating? And if not, would it be possible to add a tooltip or something that displays the range of a roll?

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Originally Posted by ExKage

op

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All the /random casinos that i have witnessed and appeared ingame for me have been level 1-10 chars with the sproutling icon still next to their name. If that's not an indication that they plan on running if they lose then idk what is.

Casinos are shady ,especially so when instigators are hiding behind an virtual avatar. Just avoid them, now if its a "beat the dealer's roll" kind of casino thats fair, and as long as theyre on their main char they cant just delete.

Anyways the whole point of a casino is having an unfair edge over the players. Whether its 1% or 15% advantage.

The one who runs a /random betting table as well as a few other games is a rather well known name on the server and is pretty distinguished. I'd trust him to pay up and never just up and leave.

N-not that I've got any ties with Tepe's Tantalizing Treasures or anything... That's not my style! ;>.>

Admittedly I own a Casino. But I take feedback to keep it fun and addictive!!
My rules:
Roll 650^ = x2 Gil, 950^ = x3 Gil, 0 or 999 = x4 gil
Items can also be used as currency depending on item.
Free Fat cat on 777 Roll and x5 Gil
Free refunds on first bad roll, (Resets everyday)
Roll 10 Times and get a free 50k on house

I also have a cute lalafel friend as a duel Casino incase I get crowded or confused.

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Originally Posted by Mauuk

For instance: The imaginary Lottery Jack says that any number from 600-1000 is a win, with rolls of 950 or higher scoring triple. To keep the odds firmly on his side, Lottery Jack often types /random 900 instead of /random 1000

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You cannot affect the range of /random. Putting a number after /random does nothing.

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Originally Posted by Mauuk

Have I overlooked something in the way the /random command displays that would prevent this kind of cheating? And if not, would it be possible to add a tooltip or something that displays the range of a roll?

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The way random is done is when you do /random you get the message "Random! You roll a (dice icon)772." in the chat box.
In another persons chat box it will show Random! (Your Name) rolls a (dice icon)772."

So they cannot cheat with using "/em Random! (Your Name) rolls a 772." Because it would show up as "(Your Name) Random! (Your Name) rolls a 772." with /random function the Random! will always show up before a players name. And the dice icon too is another aspect that can't be copied and pasted in chat.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

You cannot affect the range of /random. Putting a number after /random does nothing.

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Just checked this out by rolling /random 50 and getting a 300. Very interesting!

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Originally Posted by Mauuk

Just checked this out by rolling /random 50 and getting a 300. Very interesting!

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Lol, trying to cheat Adell's Gil Casino! :p