Bests Bows?

What do you think are the best bows? Until I got the Wave Bow, the Zenith was my best bow. After getting Rosenbogen, been using that until I got the Crystal.

After getting the True Ice Bow from Shiva and upgrading it to the Diamond Bow, its become my most powerful, despite its secondary stats not being the most desirable. Accuracy and Skill Speed.

Are the Zodiac Weapons until the Yoichi Bow really all outclassed by the Diamond Bow, with pre-Nexus forms all outclassed by the Rosenbogen as well? Is it worth using slightly weaker bows for the desired Crit instead?

Also is it worth getting the Ironwork's Magitek Bow? Since the Diamond Bow doesn't give crit either and all the Zodiac Weapons seem subpar enough I have something way better long before the next upgrade; I'm thinking the Magitek might be the next logical stepping stone bow to get until I have the Dreadwyrm Longbow.

So High Allagan, Magitek, Yoichi and Dreadwyrm are the only Bows better than Diamond Bow?

Shiva bow is wot m8 but the easiest to obtain out of the bottom group you just named...... Yoichi takes the cake just because of customization with Dread giving a +2 weapon dmg and Magitek upgraded giving a plus 1

So Dread, Mag, Yoichi

But all content up till now can be done with i120+ or i115 with a very good group.......

But yes those are the only bows better than the Crystal

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Originally Posted by Nexus_Limitless

What do you think are the best bows? Until I got the Wave Bow, the Zenith was my best bow. After getting Rosenbogen, been using that until I got the Crystal. After getting the True Ice Bow from Shiva and upgrading it to the Crystal Bow, its become my most powerful, despite its secondary stats not being the most desirable. Accuracy and Skill Speed.

Are the Zodiac Weapons until the Yoichi Bow really all outclassed by the Crystal Bow, with pre-Nexus forms all outclassed by the Rosenbogen as well? Is it worth using slightly weaker bows for the desired Crit instead?

Also is it worth getting the Ironwork's Magitek Bow? Since the Crystal Bow doesn't give crit either and all the Zodiac Weapons seem subpar enough I have something way better long before the next upgrade; I'm thinking the Magitek might be the next logical stepping stone bow to get until I have the Dreadwyrm Longbow.

So High Allagan, Magitek, Yoichi and Dreadwyrm are the only Bows better than Crystal Bow?

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Yes, I highly recommend getting the Magitek if you are not interested in going for a Yoichi Bow (Yoichi Bow with good stats is not sub-par btw). You might get booted from anything above a T12 party if you bring a 115 Shiva Bow with you.

Dreadwyrm >>> Yoichi (Dex/Crit) = 130 Magitec >> 120 Magitec > Completed Nexus > High Alagan >>>> 115 Shiva Bow

The completed Nexus no longer just gives Dex/Vit/Skill Speed/Accuracy? Site I looked at, stats were pretty much the same as Ice Bow, except it didn't list any stats other Dex/Vit values. I would like to complete it with how much time I've put in already, but does it become more of a grind with each level? Getting Atma was a big grind with getting the Atma from Fates of almost every area, now its even more of a grind to get to the next upgrade. Then there is still 2 forms before Nexus. Does it get better after the next upgrade? Finishing 9 Books takes forever...

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Originally Posted by Nexus_Limitless

The completed Nexus no longer just gives Dex/Vit/Skill Speed/Accuracy? Site I looked at, stats were pretty much the same as Ice Bow, except it didn't list any stats other Dex/Vit values. I would like to complete it with how much time I've put in already, but does it become more of a grind with each level? Getting Atma was a big grind with getting the Atma from Fates of almost every area, now its even more of a grind to get to the next upgrade. Then there is still 2 forms before Nexus. Does it get better after the next upgrade? Finishing 9 Books takes forever...

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It's something I would recommend if you had the time for it.
If you really want to bank on obtaining the Dreadwyrm, bow, you really won't need it. Dreadwyrm bow is very strong, but will be outdone by a very small margin with the ZW 135 upgrade that's coming later this month. Dreadwyrm is pretty much RNG, and ZW is time (and a pain in the butt).

Completed nexus (and nexus in the process) can be upgraded with the stats you please, based on how much gil you are willing to invest in it.

But once again, either of these is probally going to take awhile, so I do recommend getting the upgraded Iron Works if you can. It is so much better than 115 Shiva weapon.

When they release update, they will release new primal and other high end weapons. Do you think Zodiac will ever be the best if mastered compare to gainable loot from difficult battles or tomes, rather than grind endlessly for each Zodiac upgrade? Top end Primal is pretty close and raid bow is better. Wave Bow i95 was good for its level, better than a lvl 100 Zodiac. It wasn't until I got the Weathered Rosenborg I replaced Wave Bow. Now it isn't until I got Diamond Bow I'm replacing the Rosenborg.

By the time you get upgrades for Zodiac, it seems to be of been outdated for a while. Is every new level a massive grind?

Yes, every update is a massive grind from Animus~>Yoichi, but can be done with the patience to. I have Yoichi myself and wouldn't give it up for anything else aside from Dreadwyrm to be perfectly frank. The customization is just that important to the bow, and once it does get the next update it will be the best option until the expansion comes out.

The dreadwyrm bow is just a beast but the delay on it can make quad-barraging a bit hard. After that I would put a crit/det yoichi bow since the +51 SkS on the magitek bow makes me cry inside

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Originally Posted by Nexus_Limitless

When they release update, they will release new primal and other high end weapons. Do you think Zodiac will ever be the best if mastered compare to gainable loot from difficult battles or tomes, rather than grind endlessly for each Zodiac upgrade? Top end Primal is pretty close and raid bow is better. Wave Bow i95 was good for its level, better than a lvl 100 Zodiac. It wasn't until I got the Weathered Rosenborg I replaced Wave Bow. Now it isn't until I got Diamond Bow I'm replacing the Rosenborg.

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This is not correct. i100 relic (animus) was better than i95 wave bow. i100 rosenbogen was better than animus due to secondary stats, but novus already outclassed the upgraded i110 rosenbogen if semi-properly customized. Nexus outshined high allagan and neither true ice bow nor diamond bow ever stood a chance. So basically raid weapon > current relic stage > primal weapon, that's how it's always been after major content updates, though only for the first time a new raid weapon is realeased. At a certain point relic will be > raid weapon. That's how it has been when nexus was released (better than HA) and how it will most likely be when the new relic upgrade releases at tuesday next week (better than dreadwyrm if the relic goes i135).

Yep, all of the zodiac weapons stuff is a grindfest, there is no way around it. (Unless they nerf the grind when they release Heavensward, which is the only way I will ever level a nexus past ilvl90)

You have to remember that the Zodiac weapons are designed with casual players in mind. They are for people who cannot, or do not want to participate in end game raiding. There will always be equivalent or better weapons than zodiac weapons available from end game raids.

And to be honest, T10 and T11 can be beaten by parties with all ilvl110 weapons. My raid completed T11 for the first time a month ago with all i110/115 weapons, and now half of us have our magitek weapons. Not until T12 does the content get hard enough to really need stuff ilvl120 or above.

So if you don't feel like grinding for your yoichi bow, then skip it. It is completely unnecessary and IMO a waste of time, but to each their own. Some people have the time to spend on it and don't mind the grind.

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Originally Posted by Tex_Mex

They are for people who cannot, or do not want to participate in end game raiding. .

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The 130 bow is a piece of crap and every bard should aim for the yoichi bow. You can't plan to get dreadwyrm. And lastly, 135 Yoichi will beat the dreadwyrm, if optimally melded.

Also I'd say most ppl getting 125 relics are doing so because t9 took a big poop on them and they were using UAT weaps right up to 2.4. So np, 135 relic in less than 2 weeks.

Also it doesn't waste as much time as you would think. I did yoichi very casually in January ( atma-zodiac ). No more than a few hrs/day, and probably only like 3-4 days/week.

Atma = few hours.
animus semi sux, but hey, theres no rng in this step
novus is simple considering the rain of soldiery now.
Nexus is a joke, receiving a whooping 50% nerf.
Zodiac was maybe the easiest step imo. for the 16 dungeon drops I aimed for 4/day.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

The 130 bow is a piece of crap and every bard should aim for the yoichi bow.

Also it doesn't waste as much time as you would think. I did yoichi very casually in January ( atma-zodiac ). No more than a few hrs/day, and probably only like 3-4 days/week

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To address these couple of comments: The 130 bow is certainly not BiS, but there is NO content in the game that cannot be easily completed with the 130 magitek bow. Sure, you will miss out on a small amount of DPS, but it is not like it matters if you beat T13 in 12 minutes or if you beat it in 12:30. Still a win.

And as far as your minimal time commitment. 3-4 hrs /day, 3-4 days per week still amounts to 12-15 hrs per week. I only have roughly 20 hrs per week to play ENTIRELY (full time job, married, one kid on the way), and the majority of that time is spent on raiding with my guild (3-4 nights/week) and on expert roulette/WoD. Any additional time I have goes towards hunts and ST/CT for carboncoat.

12-15 additional hours is not at all feasible for me, so i do not even consider it.

A little bit off topic, but do you just all assume Zodiacs going to 135 or did i miss a dev post or something? Cause if its confirmed then it will make my day!

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Originally Posted by QuinceTaru

A little bit off topic, but do you just all assume Zodiacs going to 135 or did i miss a dev post or something? Cause if its confirmed then it will make my day!

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Not confirmed but highly likely.

The only thing confirmed is there are 12 new ATMA to obtain....how and where is unknown.

12 coil bosses = 12 atmas :'D

what about that idea?

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

12 coil bosses = 12 atmas :'D

what about that idea?

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Well considering that Zodiac weapons are designed for casual players (players with lots of time that are not really devoted to any end game raiding), this would not make much sense. The content will be much more time intensive and much lower difficulty than what is required in Coil. Think dungeon/fate/hunt farming. Maybe something like 12 atmas - 12 S rank hunts......... lol that would piss a lot of people off lol

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

Not confirmed but highly likely.

The only thing confirmed is there are 12 new ATMA to obtain....how and where is unknown.

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Able to provide source? 12 new atmas? D:

EDIT: okay nvm, found it.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Able to provide source? 12 new atmas? D:

EDIT: okay nvm, found it.

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This..This makes me sad. Can you link source?

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

This..This makes me sad. Can you link source?

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It was info from data mining so I suggest you google it yourself, I don't think I can link it here.

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Originally Posted by QuinceTaru

A little bit off topic, but do you just all assume Zodiacs going to 135 or did i miss a dev post or something? Cause if its confirmed then it will make my day!

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I think it's the combination of yoshi stating the final zodiac stage will be the most powerful weapon in the game, us knowing the next zodiac stage will be the final one (well at least for 2.x patch cycle) and relic increasing ilvl by 10 in every stage except for novus -> nexus.

Dreadwyrm > Perfect Zodiac > Augmented Ironworks > Ironworks > Perfect Nexus > High Allagan > Diamond > etc.

Zodiac is marginally better than augmented ironworks because it has so little det and skillspeed is a dps loss, so the crit and det on relic can make up the lost weapon damage. If you aren't going to bother making your relic perfect then there is basically no reason to use it at all outside of a placeholder weapon for getting diamond, rosenbogen, or HA because it won't have those great secondary stats to put it above the other weapons in its ilvl tier.

There's one i110 bow not mentioned, that I think is interesting in that it's not only better than the other i110 bows (it's clearly better than Rosenbogen), it might be better than the higher ilvl 115 Diamond Bow (since 44 Crit & 22 Det vs. Acc & SS seems like it would offset the damage/dexterity difference). I'd be interested in knowing how it rates against the i120 Ironworks Magitek Bow; I'm guessing at i120 the Ironworks Bow would probably edge it out because of higher ilvl, Physical Damage, and Dex even though it loses the 44 Crit, since it has Det in addition to the other stats that are 10 ilvl higher.

Here's the weapons I'm referring to, and where I think the Birdliege fits above the higher-ilvl Diamond bow (but I don't know how to calculate how these numbers actually translate to DPS)-

i120 Ironworks Magitek Bow-Physical Dmg 49 | Auto-attack 49.65 | Delay 3.04; Dex 48 / Vit 56 / Det 24 / SS 47
i110 Birdliege Bow- Physical Dmg 46 | Auto-attack 50.29 | Delay 3.28; Dex 42 / Vit 49 / Crit 44 / Det 22
i115 Diamond Bow- Physical Dmg 48 | Auto-attack 46.08 | Delay 2.88; Dex 45 / Vit 53 /Acc 46 / SS 32

Bard Stat Weights:
WD: 9.153
DEX: 1
CRT: 0.315
DET: 0.318
SS: 0.146
i120 Ironworks Magitek Bow-Physical Dmg 49 | Auto-attack 49.65 | Delay 3.04; Dex 48 / Vit 56 / Det 24 / SS 47
i110 Birdliege Bow- Physical Dmg 46 | Auto-attack 50.29 | Delay 3.28; Dex 42 / Vit 49 / Crit 44 / Det 22
i115 Diamond Bow- Physical Dmg 48 | Auto-attack 46.08 | Delay 2.88; Dex 45 / Vit 53 /Acc 46 / SS 32
To get the overall stat weight for the weapon, you just multiply the weights I listed by the number of stat points.

Below is an example for ironworks bow:
i120 Ironworks Magitek Bow-Physical Dmg 49 (49*9.153= 448.497)| Auto-attack 49.65 | Delay 3.04; Dex 48 (48*1 = 48) / Vit 56 / Det 24 (34*.318 = 10.812) / SS 47 (47*.146=6.862)
Total: 448.497+48+10.812+6.862 = 514.2

Giving the other 2 weapons the same treatment yields:
i110 Birdliege Bow- Physical Dmg 46(421.038) | Auto-attack 50.29 | Delay 3.28; Dex 42(42) / Vit 49 / Crit 44(13.86) / Det 22(6.996) = 483.9
i115 Diamond Bow- Physical Dmg 48(439.344) | Auto-attack 46.08 | Delay 2.88; Dex 45(45) / Vit 53 /Acc 46 / SS 32(4.672) = 489.016

Summary:
Ironworks Bow > Diamond Bow > Birdliege Bow

The higher ilvl weapon will always have higher auto attack DPS as well, which will only further widen these margins. Basically, this just shows that weapon damage and main stat value make up 95-96% of a weapon's damage potential. Don't stress too much over secondary stats, they don't add much.

Very interesting, thanks for taking the time to share that. I suppose without the Crit/Det on the Birdliege bow, the difference between the two would have been even larger... since the Diamond bow is 5 ilvl higher and gains just over 5 stat points, whiereas the Ironworks gains roughly 25 points over the Diamond bow for its 5 ilvl difference.

Hi.
I redid some calculations.
Indeed, it seems the weights used in the previous calculations are outdated.
I used the last weights I found, which are:
WP: 9.429, DEX:1, VIT:0, ACC:0, CRT:0.339, DET:0.32, SS:0.161
So using these weights, I calculated the equivalent DEX for all the bows with an ilvl>=110.

Here are the results. I sorted them from the best to the worst. The ilvl are between brakets. The relic bows are made using CRT DET only:
Dreadwyrm Longbow (135): 573.6
Augmented Ironworks Magitek Bow (130): 551.1
Yoichi Bow (125): 550.3
Ironworks Magitek Bow (120): 525.3
Artemis Bow Nexus (115): 523.4
High Allagan Composite Bow (115): 507.8
Pentameld (CRT IV*5) Ebony Longbow HQ (110): 505.6
Diamond Bow (115): 502.7
Artemis Bow Novus (110): 500.6
Birdliege Bow (110): 497.7
Rosenbogen (110): 493.3
Ebody Longbow HQ (110): 490.6
True Ice Bow (110): 480.7

If the next step of the relic is ilvl 135, then its equivalent DEX will be 577.1
If the next step of the relic is ilvl 130, then its equivalent DEX will be 563.7

Some remarks:
- be careful with these numbers (1): weapons with ACC will give less equivalent DEX, but if you have more ACC here, you can reduce the ACC on you other items and then gain some equivalent DEX on these items.
- be careful with these numbers (2): weapons with SS, even if they give a better equivalent DEX, will drain out your TP faster. The reason why I prefer to use the Yoichi Bow instead of the Augmented Ironworks Magitek Bow, even if this one is theoretically giving a better equivalent DEX (0.8 pts...)
- even if the new step of the relic is i135 (and I hope it will be), it will be only better than the T13 Bow by 3.5 DEX pts. Acceptable I think, regarding the fact that the T13 Bow is available for months, and all these items will become obsolete at the 3.0.

With regards to stat weights - my personal long runs of parses believe that even with the updated CRT = 0.339, DET = 0.320 numbers, it doesn't take into account of extreme stacking effects.

I believe some of you bards must have heard of the Patch 2.5 build that allows to stack up to 699 crit - or at least some of you in Tonberry which I shared the build with, or have seen my other posts on other bard related thread.

My own test shows that while by stat weight calculations, Augmented Magitek > Yoichi and Magitek > Nexus, by a slight margin, if you are able to stack crit to a certain level, the Yoichi/Nexus becomes better than the Ironworks version.

The Ironworks provides a more stable parsing output on a typical 3min to 3:30min tests, but if you parse it by a large sample number, the Yoichi/Nexus will out perform the Ironworks 80% of the time.

I believe that the breaking point is 641 crit (300 points above your base crit) which allows you to push your average/overall crit rate to the low 40%, while when approaching the 691 mark you can start to see mid 40% to 50%.

For this reason or the absolute hate on Skill Speed, most of the bards I know will take the relic over the Ironworks.

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Originally Posted by Tex_Mex

Yep, all of the zodiac weapons stuff is a grindfest, there is no way around it. (Unless they nerf the grind when they release Heavensward, which is the only way I will ever level a nexus past ilvl90) Opinion
You have to remember that the Zodiac weapons are designed with casual players in mind. They are for people who cannot, or do not want to participate in end game raiding. There will always be equivalent or better weapons than zodiac weapons available from end game raids. "Untrue and misleading"
RNG
So if you don't feel like grinding for your yoichi bow, then skip it. It is completely unnecessary and IMO a waste of time, but to each their own. Some people have the time to spend on it and don't mind the grind.

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"If you get the Yoichi bow, It can now be upgraded to the Best or nearly best weapon in the game. "FACT"