Gridania and "outsiders"

When I started playing back in 2.0 I knew I wanted to be a White Mage, and I ended up in Gridania.... however nice looking the forest environment are, the wildlife, and especially the people can be very hostile. I don't see the point of having a lush beautiful forest if everyone is just going to be miserable. As much as I love Gridania, I can't stand the people and their judgmental attitudes... there is something just... wrong about how a human being can respect an non-sentient life form or inanimate matter than a flesh and blood person. The other two nations have their issues but sometimes I cannot stand how the natives deal with "outsiders", at least Isgardians have their Dragon War so at least they have an excuse.

One would think having a meteor dropped on them forcing them to collaborate with other nations would change their outlook, but sometimes I feel like the Shroud (not all of it, at least not the part with the Ixali and the Slyphs) should be set on fire. At least enough to make Gridanians question why they should treat their neighbors.

They do have to respect the will of the Elementals, and outsiders traditionally have kind of done nothing to help with the whole "Gridania only being allowed to be a thing by the will of the Elementals" deal. The Gridanians aren't welcoming, but then again outsiders have only ever made themselves unwelcomed guests who ruin the whole thing for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Anna_Lannis

there is something just... wrong about how a human being can respect an non-sentient life form or inanimate matter than a flesh and blood person.

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So you question their belief that all life is sacred, in every form? Let me ask you this...who decides life is sacred then? Do we, as sentient beings? If sentient creatures have the power to dictate what forms of life are sacred and which aren't, of COURSE they are going to find their own lives sacred, because they have a self-interest in staying alive.

Also, someone did set the Twelveswood on fire once prior to the Calamity (during 1.0). Let's just say once the Elementals got involved it did NOT end well for the boy.

There is also the fact that Elementals DO exist and when angered (usually by an outsider cutting down trees, especially one's where they reside) everyone dies.

Its a respect for the forest because its a "you help us we help you." Such a thing is alien to outsiders and sadly they lump them up together

Well, here's an idea... if it's so important, why not just have Wood Wailers, etc. explain the situation to visitors instead of being judgmental? Outsiders are not mind-readers. Outside of deliberate theft, assault, etc. Gridanians, do very little to impart their culture to other people, and I have yet to see an "outsider" do anything bad to the forest out of disrespect, thoughtlessness, greed, etc. other than the Red Belly and Courelfangs. Out of all the DoL and DoH jobs only Fufucha understands how her craft interacts with other crafts. The other ones are too self-absorbed think past their front porch and only one of them goes through enough character development to realize it.

I think the source of the issue is Gridania is a "Powered by a Forsaken Child" kind of deal and for the sake of the greater good occasionally the Hearers will let someone innocent die because it's the Will of the Elementals (TM).

Obviously whether or not you think that's a justifiable trade-off is always going to be something of a base-breaker. It's even a canonical base-breaker in-game, since it seems to be the source of the Duskwright vs Wildwood split.

Gridania rubs me the wrong way too, because they are fairly racist against Duskwights who are just as native to the Shroud as any of the rest of them. They seem pretty xenophobic and afraid of the forest, which is *explained* well in sources in 1.0 and such, but you never really get the sense ingame currently that it's justified and they come across as just being paranoid bigots in 2.0.

Okay, what happens if I go around on Scholar or Alchemist healing people using Leeches or HQ Spine Drops and HQ Hi-Potions... are the elemental going to stop me? Am I going to invoke the Greenwrath if I use too much White Magic in Thanalan or La Noscea? And why doesn't anything bad happen to the Red Belly and Courelfangs?

If you need to see an example of why using religion/beliefs is an excuse to be nasty is a bad idea, go to Lost City of Ampador. Every war has had some kind of religious justification for pain and suffering... which is why I cannot stand it.

Diabolos wasn't summoned by the whms, he was summoned by their enemies, and the whm sealed him in that tower.

In gridania, the elementals word is law. These laws are explained to outsiders briefly, but most like to ignore them, so natives, fearing the all too real greenwrath, dislike outsiders.

The Gridanian attitude towards outsiders is one that several Gridanians themselves comment on as an issue. You can see how it is rooted though. Remember it took hundreds of years of having to live underground before the elementals finally accepted the Gridanians and allowed them to live on the surface. This makes the Gridanians rather paranoid about maintaining their relations with the elementals.

As for why so many groups evade retribution, I'd say its probably linked to the fact the elementals were weakened by the Calamity. I also suspect the elementals allow the Gridanians to take responsibility for much of it. If you have played through the White Mage story you would know the forest was getting pretty angry and needed placating.

Its worth giving credit where its due though. It was the Gridanians that founded the Eorzea Alliance. I see them as a well intentioned but very conservative people. None of the nations of Eorzea are without some flaws.

Also I'm pretty new to the lore but as I understand it, it was what Ampador did and the War of the Magi that lead to the Elementals driving everyone out in the first place. Didn't the 1.0 White Mage story have some suggestion that it was the abuse of magic during the Magi war by all groups that caused the Elementals to trigger a Calamity? I never played 1.0 so my knowledge of those details is second or third hand.

Limsa and Ul'dah both have have deep-seated problems. Limsa is a nation of former pirates whose flagrant abuse of paper-thin treaties with the Kobolds is uncomfortably (and likely deliberately) similar to the relationship between the expansionist United States of America and the native American Indians. Ul'dah's politics are rife with corruption, bribery, and worse. These are problems that are recognized by the people in those nations, but there are no easy solutions.

Why is it so surprising that Gridania, too, has deep-seated problems? The people there are very aware that they live only at the sufferance of inscrutable, inhuman creatures, and that those inhuman creatures occasionally demand that they perform inhumane actions. Many Gridanians would like to be helpful and welcoming to outsiders, but in the end they have to abide by the Elementals' decisions. Other Gridanians are less welcoming; they'd prefer outsiders stay OUT, so as not to test the Elementals' wrath. Not very friendly, true, but not hard to understand.

It's fine to recognize that Gridania is not exactly a utopia. It was never meant to be taken as such. The problems it has, though, are not simple ones with simple solutions. It's also not very fair to single it out in particular, as all three nations are deeply flawed, and those flaws are well-known.

Alphinaud does make light of this in the 2.3 storyline I think. He mentioned how everyone sees each other in a stereotypical sense; Limsians are seen has shady pirates, the Uld'ahns are con artists that only care about coin, and the Gridaians are a bunch of tree huggers. As it was mentioned earlier, all 3 city states have their own major issue that outsiders or non natives take notice to.

If you want to go further, go to the chocobo stables in the Central Shroud and you can see an Uld'ah merchant trying to get a native Gridanian to sell his chocobo and use said profits to buy 2 or more chocobos to speed in production.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

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And it was actually one of the primary reasons he had for starting the Crystal Braves. With the current city-states having to not only defend Eorzea but also quell their own internal strife, it's helpful to have another body that's able to transcend the political boundaries and lend aid where it's needed. To make an analogy, the Crystal Braves are essentially the Coast Guard of the region, who go in when times are hard no matter what local government needs help.

I still don't see a lot of "outsiders" actively exploit or abuse nature. I do think Palpaymo once said the Elementals were everywhere in Eorzea at one point(I haven't played 1.0. so I don't know). But I do believe the Gridanians could foster relations a lot better than what they are doing; a stagnant culture is one that is quick to go extinct. The whole "we are always right and outsiders are wrong" card they play more than a few times... yeah it works both ways.

I could get into how the Gridanian cultural perspective is actually a fine example of adaptation to an adverse environment, but honestly I think that misses the fundamental issue at the heart of this thread; its entire underpinnings frankly baffle me. Essentially, "How can people be ______?" The unstated assumption being "in this modern age of enlightenment and understanding?" Well, to answer the first question as succinctly as possible: People are people. They are capable of every good and evil imaginable, so long as we recognize that 'good' and 'evil' are subject to perspective, culture, religious views, and personal bias. To answer the second, this is a fantasy setting with fake people who, nonetheless, are given interest and depth and life by mirroring the way people in such an environment might really be, particularly with respect to the setting's level of technological and cultural advancement.

People are people. Sometimes (often), people are unpleasant but that judgment lies with us, according to our views. According to the Gridanians, they're simply attempting to survive and look out for the best of their sometimes hostile home, an environment that will only look after them if they look after it. Unfortunately, that often means being unfriendly towards those who would raise unwitting (or intentional) hell. There aren't enough hours in the day to patiently explain the situation to every passer-by, and who's to say any of them would care for a place where they don't live if there's profit in not doing so?

In short, why are the Gridanians jerks? Because it's interesting, and because it provides them depth.

Problem is, how would Gridanians feel if they were treated that way by others when they went to Lominsa and Ul'dah?

As to why the redbellies/ poachers aren't harmed it's because the Elementals are greatly weakened by the Calamity years ago and are more or less recuperating. Additionally, in 1.0 many of the "great" Elementals were killed by somebody; they had daggers sticking out of their corpses.

By being so weak they cannot meet out vengeance/protection as they once did pre-calamity. Also I believe Kan E Senna, with the support of some padjals and seedseers, have something to do with the Elementals not going to crazy with all these new adventurers going in and out of Gridania.

I also remember from the moogle delivery quest of the lalafel merchant from uldah seen in ebony stall that was selling goods from known poachers and selling them in a round about way for a long time. So yes, outsiders can abuse the laws of gridania.

Also, by allowing more adventurers/outsiders in Gridania these people can learn to respect where leather comes from, how not to over harvest/good farming methods (?) they're also taught gridanian conjury.

Actually, all the GC leaders are trying their best to change society for their better.

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Originally Posted by Anna_Lannis

Problem is, how would Gridanians feel if they were treated that way by others when they went to Lominsa and Ul'dah?

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I don't know how this is relevant at all but I'd assume they'd probably feel pretty bad about it?

Yeah I want to fill the world with flowers and hugs. It just people need to make an effort to be happy. I don't see the point in living in a forest if you can't be happy.

Eorzea isn't a friendly place, its full of people who recently survived a apocalyptic situation and are struggling to even survive, You gotta understand it from their viewpoint not your own.

You also have to realise that there are limited resources and Gridanians have lived in fear of powerful real Elementals for ages. If they upset The Elementals they will be met with Sickness and Death. They decided to keep a tight watch on anything that could upset said Elementals because the whole forest would suffer, including them.

Their Xenophobia is completely justified and needed to continue their survival.

Until you need to interact with someone else... everyone has limited resources, but that doesn't justify bigotry... try working to make things better, not hole up somewhere and be paranoid. Do something to make your world a better place, not make excuses to make it worse. War happens when people cannot compromise.

Tell that to the Garleans.

You must understand that Eorzea isn't a perfect world and it isn't our world either.

I think players who joined in 2.0 are missing some very vital perspective and backstory on why the Gridanians are the way they are. Prior to the Calamity, the Twelveswood (known as the Black Shroud to outsiders due to its dangerous and impenetrable nature) was a hostile and frightening place where invisible creatures meted out the inscrutable will of the wood with extreme prejudice to any who angered them. There was not always warning, and it often did not make sense. In such an environment, if you wish to survive, the only reasonable response is to learn how not to anger the things that can cause forest guardians to rise to vengeful life, trigger wildlife stampedes, or simply emerge from thin air to steal you away or just flat-out kill you. All this and more used to happen regularly.

Those who did not have to live there or simply did not understand the way of the wood were less invested and less knowledgeable about things and did things to anger the elementals quite regularly... Then they'd leave. Who had to suffer this invisible anger? Those who remained - the Gridanians. They have suffered quite a lot at the hands of ignorant or just plain uncaring outsiders by their stomping about, and there are plenty of examples of them having stolen, damaged, or otherwise mistreated the forest because they did not have a concept of it as a living thing, when it is in fact very much a meta-organism, like as a beehive or anthill. Illness or injury in one part affects the health of the whole.

"Forgive and forget!" you may say. Sure, that'd probably help now that the elementals are too weak to do anything post-calamity. But try telling that to Ferguson; I'm sure they'd love to hear it. The writers have attempted to create real people with real prejudices. Stuff like this doesn't vanish overnight. The Gridanians are the way they are due to a long and storied history. To insist this is wrong and ought not to be over sentimental idealism is to oversimplify and to rob the setting of some of its nuance, flavor, and realism. Because that's the point, isn't it? Not what is right or wrong according to our modern Western views and sentiments, but what is realistic and vital and interesting for a fantasy world upon which hard times, trials, and tribulations have fallen.

I remember 1.0's Black Shroud. I live in a rural wooded area myself IRL but so much of that place seemed unnaturally hostile the even light seed to be afraid to enter uninvited. It was a dark maze of trees with cteatures , hostile ones at that, attacking around every turn. 2.0's Twelve's Wood is a beautiful place but The Black Shroud of 1.0 was terrifying. And one must also rmlemember, NPCs can actually die. If we "die" we're ported back to town via aethirite and try again. Avery went rushing into Tam-Tara half cocked and got his head loped off by Voidsent. Notice the difference here? There is likely some people that when they say "The Elementals won't let me" they really mean "I don't care enough about you to even try" but the same can be said for the monotarists in Ul'dah and the Code Breaking Pirates in Limsa Lomimsa. Every tree has bad fruit vocationally. (Pun intended)

I still think Grindania needs more hugs. And I also don't like the fact when someone tries to go there and improve the place or get to know the place, the Gridanians bully them. Ya know, the fact is not that they are Xenophobe, the fact they except people want outsiders to respect them, and not have to earn that respect. Also the fact their is no change, no growth no nothing. Limsa are trying *not* to be pirates. Ul'dah are trying *not* to be greedy. When I go to those places and do those quests, I see people trying to solve their problems. When I go to Grindania, I get "i'm right, everyone else is wrong" mentality. It doesn't change and there is no evolution, no growth, nothing. The beastmen are actually more civilized and friendly than the people themselves are, the Sylphs are more friendly to people and even the hostile ones don't go out of their way to hurt people, and the Ixal are building a frigging AIRSHIP with the races of "man". You can't keep saying "because Elementals" as an excuse for everything. 1.0 does not exist anymore. I know people are paranoid, you need to change and I don't see Gridanians attempting ANYTHING.

Do more Gridanian quests then. There are plenty that show a changing mindset, and just from talking to NPCs there's a huge amount of progress from 1.0. 1.0 may not be playable anymore, but it most certainly still exists in the lore and history of 2.0. Eorzea does not exist in a vacuum, it is a living setting that is influenced by its past. Gridania is still a bit standoffish and unfriendly to outsiders, but to say they have made no progress and desire no further progress is to be blind to the facts. They used to HATE Ul'dahns, and with pretty good reason. Nowadays you see nary a mention of it. Gridania's come a long way, belittling their progress with selective attention only reveals your own prejudices.

...Also,what's this about Ul'dah not trying to be greedy? Their entire morality is based around money. Look into Ossuary revenge contracts sometime. I think the problem here is that you're wearing some seriously rose-tinted shades about the entire rest of the setting. If you want rigid, unchanging, exclusionary viewpoints then take a look at Ishgard.

I just want to make a Gridania a happier place. I want to make everything around me happy. It just feels so sad and lonely when it could be better.

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Originally Posted by Anna_Lannis

You can't keep saying "because Elementals" as an excuse for everything. 1.0 does not exist anymore. I know people are paranoid, you need to change and I don't see Gridanians attempting ANYTHING.

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But we can since The Elementals are still a very real entity in The Shroud, though they are weakened does not mean they are gone.

Also Ul'dah are still greedy as heck, are you kidding?
The last few patches have been about how greedy most higher up leaders in Ul'dah really are.

I don't know why you are so insistent with the whole "Make love not hate" mindset. The setting and lore is already set and we, the player characters, have little to no involvement with how NPCs behave. We're just observers until we're called into action for a big part in the play Square has laid out. You should go hang out in Mor Dhona.

After the clamaity the strength of the elementals diminished. In 1.0 you leant more of the synergy between the elementals and Gridanians. Gridanians have always been wary of outsiders due to the agreement they have with the elementals, outsiders dont know or don't understand and thus could do things which would risk that fragile peace between the Gridys and the elementals.

In 1.0 your introduction to Grid is woodsin. Where you did something to anger the elementals and was tainted so that the forest saw you pretty much as an enemy and you had to go through a ritual to cleanse it.

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Originally Posted by Anna_Lannis

I just want to make a Gridania a happier place. I want to make everything around me happy. It just feels so sad and lonely when it could be better.

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Garlemauld has a great plan in making the world a "Happyer Place". Kill all the primals, beast tribes, echo users, and any one else that believes in " Eikons" and bring the whole world under one united banner, aka theirs, whether they like it or not.

But how manny people will be killed? Gridania's problems only appear to be black and white just like Ul'dah and Ishgaurds use too. Why? Because we have seen in great detail how things are really working there. I did the mog mail quest in East Shroud (that then leads to South Shroud) and those wood wailers at the end I was really tempted to kill my self. There is corruption somewhere in Gridania, we just have yet to smoke it out.

I kinda like how, despite being "tree hugging hippies," they are so unwelcoming to strangers. When the Elementals were at their peak I am pretty sure many travelers who didn't take the designated path were outright killed by the elementals.

Anyways, Kan E Senna is doing her best to project the image that OP wants.

Hmm it's been nearly a year since I did the botanist questline but as far as I recall Fufucha is a pacifist and her questline involved the moral connundrum about supplying resources to the grand company while at the same time that grand company being used on more than just direct protection of the Shroud.

And the leatherworker questline teaches you about respecting what you receive in terms of skins from hunted animals. This leads to why the leatherworkers guild leather is so sought after due to it's high quality that they focus on out of respect.

Sadly outsiders often don't show even the minimal of respect and consider things just as resources to be used and discarded.

And to top it off you yourself as an adventurer are an outsider. Do you get a distinct feeling of being hated on? Only place I got this feeling was during the archer questline really. The rest were either neutral or friendly towards me.

So the question is more what are you doing differently than the other outsiders.

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Originally Posted by ruskie

Sadly outsiders often don't show even the minimal of respect and consider things just as resources to be used and discarded.

And to top it off you yourself as an adventurer are an outsider. Do you get a distinct feeling of being hated on? Only place I got this feeling was during the archer questline really. The rest were either neutral or friendly towards me.

So the question is more what are you doing differently than the other outsiders.

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Short Answer, Actually giving a crap about the Twelve's Wood and the Plants and creatures within it.

/sigh, this misunderstanding again...

A few months back, heavens it may have been a year ago, a role player was opining about the failings of Gridania its religion and the bigotry, falsity and evils of Gridania. I wrote her a length response. Rather than link the thread I'll just modify it to this discussion and reiterate what I said before:

I have always found it amusing that Gridania is targetted by many player/commentators as being the most insular and xenophobic of states. Specialized adventurer divisions exist for each of the city stats in their military/social divisions, but Limsa Lominsa calls their out as the 'Foreign Levy,' along with the Privateers (pirates, fishing boats etc) and Ul'dah refers to theirs as the 'Foreign Brigades,' along with the very looked-down upon, Ala Mhigans. Only the Gridanian divisions place the Yellow Serpents (formed strictly of adventurers) along with all the other military divisions of the Twin Adders. Couple that with the fact that they are honored with the very animal symbolic of the city-state and you have a very welcoming imagery for outsiders.

There are a number of average citizens in Gridania that can be overheard feeling animus toward outsiders, there are soldiers in the Adders that could just as soon do without another adventurer. Then, one could also say that there are racists and xenophobic individuals in nearly every group in our own world and their shortcomings do not serve to identify the larger group.

The Elementals

Then, there are the Elementals. I think they are more realistic and primeval than you give them credit for. They represent the will of nature as it were. It is a system designed to protect itself so naturally it will be picky about who it chooses to interact with. If nature was given a measure of sentience and was allowed to manifest in power it would to my thinking be very like what has been imagined in the Elementals.

Humans are in their essence very similar. We in our existence have had a measure of social evolution that has made us defensive toward outsiders while defensive of those that belong to us, call it tribal nature, pack order or whatever you wish. This is the nadir of social order and was necessary for our survival throughout most of our existence.

This existence is humorously examined in The Croods recently, the father figure, seeing much of his species dying off became very cautious and insulated his family from danger and outsiders. It was seen as necessary measures for survival.

According to Papylamo, based on Sharlayan teaching, all of nature has a measure of Elemental sentience. This is concentrated most heavily in, as some others have pointed out, one of the most naturally dense places on Eorzea, the Twelveswood. What would any life do, but follow its most basic instinct to protect itself? Elementals are instinct incarnate.

Spoken in the Twelveswood

I would examine the system of Gridania and the surrounding settlements related to it, as being a modified symbiotic relationship. The forest saw benefit in interacting with the Moogles. What that was, I have no idea, and doubt we'll ever be able to examine it from a story point of view. However, they formed a very basic tribal relationship.

The Moogles saw the attempts of the Elezen, the Ixal, the Hyur and then all of the remaining immigrations to live in the forest, and saw the forest rebuff them. It was a very good response, left unchecked Spoken tend to be rather destructive. The Moogles went and served as a mediator to allow interaction of the early Elezen and subsequent Hyur settlers, and demonstrated to the Wood how they too could be part of the tribe. This is the lore, a system of truth, falsity, myth, legend, speculation etc. This is what it told us about this early symbiosis. Using verbiage like 'propaganda' to describe this system of lore is a bit disingenuous, it’s the system of knowledge that we have to work with.

We have also been told that, of the Five Races, Elezen settled the forests of Eorzea first. Relative to time 5000 to 1400 years ago Miqo'te began their migration into Eorzea proper. Human migration and settlement began in earnest some 500 years prior to our present time. I'm confident at this point that SE has done some redaction and revamping to the storyline. In my opinion, the Twin Adders concept of Elezen/Hyur communal building isn't what the initial 1.0 lore was hinting to, however history is being rewritten and relative to our characters, that in the new reality. Gridiania is 500 years old or so by this estimation, and was largely the product of Elezen and Hyur. This does not diminish the roles of others such as the Miqo'te and Lalafell (and the comparatively small number of Roegadyn) that have moved in and helped to populate the region since. It is however, the reality of the situation.

Since someone brought up the Duskwrights, I'd say specifically given the ability to come out of the caves of Gelmorra with the other Elezen and make pacts and peace with the Elementals, they chose as a people to continue outside this system in the Shroud. It would be very natural as people to treat those that spurn peace and unity as outsiders and eventually to develop negative feelings and hostility toward them.

Elemental Religion

I like that they captured the essence of nature/religion symbiosis in much the same way that we would speak were this real, with a religious tone. There are prescribed rituals of dance, and offering. There are festivals to please them, methods to appease them, rites to evoke them, rules to avoid their wrath. I stood in Old Mih Khetto's Amphitheater, before the Calamity, wearing a mask fitted with a jewel and the prescribed rituals and I danced there to receive remission of my Greenwrath, not that anyone remembers. There is definitely a religious quality to the experience of interacting with the Elementals.

The people of Gridania are syncretistic-polytheists, however. There is room in their philosophy for Hydaelyn to be the Mother of the World, for the Matron to be their patron, guide and support, and for the preservation and the honoring of the Will of the Elementals, apparently given the wood by Nophica, or so I've been told.

Interestingly, Hydaelyn is allowing us to reside in Her world, The Twelve are letting the Five reside in their Land, and the Elementals allow the Gridanians to reside in their Wood. These syncretistic, symbiotic, and covenantal relationships are a repeated theme: I'll let you live here, but I expect this. Its very old school theology, the basic covenant.

Looking at it in a New Light

I will say, after logging a lot of quests in Gridania, both before and after the Calamity, that only the most ignorant of Gridanians sees the Elementals in terms of true godhood style divinity. I think they have a deep, almost religious respect, and they clearly revere and fear their power. However, I do not think they believe they are gods in the classical Western sense that many of us would understand the Twelve to be.

Its difficult for some Westerners to split these theological hairs, but in Eastern religious concepts spirits are everywhere, and they are seen in this religious light: Worthy of respect, reverence, honor, ritual. They are not omnipotent world shaping luminaries of our pantheons. Nothing like the Egyptian Ennead or Ogdoad, nor warrior divines forging reality from nothingness like the Aesir, nor divine children shaping reality from chaos like the Olympians, and are certainly not like Semitic or Arabic representations of supreme divinity. Gridanian Elementals are spirits in a very Eastern way, and the customs that form around them will be very similar.

The Padjal are not the priests of the West, they have far more in keeping with a priest of the East. The Elementals are not gods or divines, but spirits seeking to protect their own. Look at these things that way and you'll likely understand Gridania a good deal better.

If you understand Japanese culture and history and how it works, see your Keeper in light of being a second or third generation European, after having made first contact with Japan. It took quite a while for the insular thinking to give way to syncretism but it happened. Japan has since learned to radically love and include a great many Western concepts. In much the same way Fufucha is a vital part of the life and society of Gridania, as is a certain young Miqo'te lass in the archer's guild.

An Example in Closing

Pawah Mujuuk, a poacher from the story seen as an outsider and hunted for their abuse of this system is a perfect example. They not included in Gridanian society. They are a poacher and a thief. Lets look at it another way. The Dutch move into a region of Japan in the early parts of the Edo era and start attacking the priests of a Shinto temple who are trying to keep them from poaching their livestock, and destroying their fields. The locals would likely hire and send ronin and members of the military would be sent as well. Gridania hires adventurers and sends the Wailers and the Quivers.

For me, looking at Gridania not from the gabbing and gossip of a few smallfolk, but from getting to know the people in charge changed my mind on a great many things. Also, viewing it from an Eastern standpoint gave me a huge, "Ah ha!" moment, and made me love the land even more.

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Originally Posted by RolandDebreton

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I love this post, I really do. It points out the very real fact that the Elementals are clearly mortal beings of an aetherial nature as well as them being powerful enough to fear but not so all powerful that they can not be defied (All though at full strength I don't think you'd live long after pissing them off).

I also liked the comparisons to Shinto beliefs. For those unfamiliar with the term "Ronen" a Ronen is a swordsmen with no master or for lack of a better term a mercenary as we adventurers are in Eorzia.

I still hold a simple belief that, like all who have power, that there are some in Gridania that willingly abuse their power through the name of the Elementals just as there are people that misuse the names of deities and religions IRL for their own gain. But the real concern is how much power would those people have?

Between The Rouge Guild and The Admiral in Limsa Lominsa the Pirates are kept in check either by their own volition or at the Rouge's knife point while looking down the barrel of The Admiral's pistols.
Ul'dah how ever has corruption running so deep that the monarch, Nannamo, herself has little to no power in her own nation thus leaving her in the very dangerous situation of having few people on her side and not being able to trust but a few amongst them.
Now the big question, since it's inevitably there some where, How far does Gridania's Corruption go? Is it put down by force where ever it appears like in Limsa? Does is run so deep that the very foundation of Gridanian Society is based off of a lie? Is is simply a small, well hidden faction with no real power? Or does it not exist at all? This is the Million Gil Question about Gridanian Society. Kan-E Senna is The Elderseed Seer chosen by the Elementals them selves and The Commander of The Twin Adders Grand Company so chosen by the Gridanian People. So she represents the Ultimate balance between the Enlightened Races and The Elementals them selves and acts as the over all protector of The Twelves Wood who uses her power to bring peace and harmony between Gridania, The Elementals, AND the world out side The Twelves Wood. So assuming there is corruption it's likely in opposition to her will, but with the Elementals in Every thing and able to speak to her directly would it even be possible to oppose her with out her knowing? And if she knows then she either allows it because it's of no grave consequence (Aka a few bad apples not worthy of time) or would be able to put them down before they could become a serious threat.

I think the corruption in Gridania is deep, ancient animosity worked out from the natural order the Elementals have set. I don't think its a coodinated corruption like the Syndicate, nor is it a group, like the pirates. Its individuals with bias born from their natural system.

Think about the leaders, the Seedseers all seem like very nice people, very enlightened and despite being the arbiters of the very primal Elementals, they are worldly and agreeable to working with other nations. Heck, Kan-E-Senna actively pushed to start the Eorzean Alliance. In the guilds, while they are more simple folk, people like Luciane are opened and cosmopolitan enough to aid foreign adventurers etc. Influence pettlers, like Miounne, are also friendly, opened, and helpful to outsiders.

Really, its just the grumpy small folk, and their small ways and small perspectives. Despite being the "smallfolk" they are the most abundant folk. Whether its the small minded Conjurer initiate far removed from the level headed E-Sumi-Yan, or the surly botanist, or the superstitious villager.

Frankly, there just is no grand villainy a foot in the Black Shroud. Its just an intrinsically defensive system of governance in the that turns people off. We as players are the ones that are putting our judgments of how things ought to be onto another system. I keep seeing a cultural imperialistism towards Gridania. We "get" the government of Limsa and Ul'dah, we understand corrupt politicians and thievery and cutthroat politics. Aren't we enlightened! However, we just don't understand the covenant spiritism that guides the Shroud and it spooks us. Its different and not Western. The biggest boogy man in the Shroud, (besides the actual one in Amdapor Keep), is just backwards people. Just that simple.

Hmmm, interesting. So the corruption lies not in a deliberate malevolence or hidden chaos (like the syndicate and pirate factions to continue the examples) but actually an almost primeval mutual mistrust between the Esoteric-esq Gridanians and the more profit and prestige oriented outsiders ( The Ul'dahns, Limsans, and even us Adventurers) that leads to an almost passive hostility towards each other that over hundreds of years has developed into harsh and unforgiving stereotypes and prejudices that can potentially turn into violent confrontations instigated by either side or both like when the wood wailers raid the Red Belly and Coural Claw camps and vis versa.

Quite an insight when you think of it that way.

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Originally Posted by RolandDebreton

Frankly, there just is no grand villainy a foot in the Black Shroud. Its just an intrinsically defensive system of governance in the that turns people off. We as players are the ones that are putting our judgments of how things ought to be onto another system. I keep seeing a cultural imperialistism towards Gridania. We "get" the government of Limsa and Ul'dah, we understand corrupt politicians and thievery and cutthroat politics. Aren't we enlightened! However, we just don't understand the covenant spiritism that guides the Shroud and it spooks us. Its different and not Western. The biggest boogy man in the Shroud, (besides the actual one in Amdapor Keep), is just backwards people. Just that simple.

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Actually I think the opposite of cultural imperialism happens for a lot of players; those of us who pick Keeper Mi'qote and Duskwrights are going to see the racism (archer's guild, lancer's guild, etc.) that Gridania holds against those species. Since the Lore tells us that those selected races also lives in the Shroud, mainly surviving outside Gridanian culture and their pact with the Elementals, I'm not sure what the proper RP response is other than to start believing that's something really wrong with the place?