About House Valentione...

Now that it's Valentione's Day, I'd like to know a bit more concerning their house.
Clearly House Valentione is not one of the 4 High Houses that make up the Ishgard's flag, which begs the question(s)...

Are they even recognized as a proper noble house?

If they are, does that mean that there are many more noble houses/families than the ones on Ishgard's flag?

What kind of political power/influence can they hold compared to the major 4 ones (as well as their standing with the Holy See)?

I know that Ishgard's back-story is (mostly) shrouded in mystery given their withdrawal compared to the other city-states, but still...a few answers/opinions on the matter would be nice.

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

Now that it's Valentione's Day, I'd like to know a bit more concerning their house.
Clearly House Valentione is not one of the 4 High Houses that make up the Ishgard's flag, which begs the question(s)...

Are they even recognized as a proper noble house?

If they are, does that mean that there are many more noble houses/families than the ones on Ishgard's flag?

What kind of political power/influence can they hold compared to the major 4 ones (as well as their standing with the Holy See)?

I know that Ishgard's back-story is (mostly) shrouded in mystery given their withdrawal compared to the other city-states, but still...a few answers/opinions on the matter would be nice.

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My guess is that they've sworn fealty to one of the four High Houses and serve as its supporters.

Or they aren't really -that- into current Ishgardian politics either. This might be because they've learned to stay away from them, or simply a consequence of Lisette dabbling into things that would register as "fluff" in harsher times (you can't pelt the Dravanian Horde with chocolates).

It will be interesting to see next years Valentione's day, considering we'll be in Ishgard by then, lol.

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

If they are, does that mean that there are many more noble houses/families than the ones on Ishgard's flag?

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The four on the flag are the High Houses of Ishgard, implying that there are lower families. The four High Houses are descended from the knights who stood with Haldrath, the first Azure Dragoon, son of Thordan, founder of Ishgard.

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

What kind of political power/influence can they hold compared to the major 4 ones?

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Considerably less. Even House Dzemael commands slightly more power than the other three high houses (at least at the moment).

Here are some big hints as to how the system works:

House Dzemael is said to be lorded over by a count; since Dzemael is about as high as it gets, this may be about as high as you can go before entering Holy ranks. In 1.0, a levequst referred to a Duke - how that guy fit into it, I have no idea. Isn't Duke higher than Count?

House Durendaire calls its banners to retake the Stone Vigil, and Cailean refers to himself as a bannerman of House Haillenarte, whose master is his liege lord. The big question is whether the High House's bannermen are carrying that house's banners or the banners of houses that are sworn to the high houses. There's very little context about that part. It sounds like some lower houses have sworn fealty, not directly to the archbishop, but to the high houses under him. It sounds like a distinction without much meaning, but spend some with Game of Thrones and you'll figure out how important that distinction is. And a levequest did once refer to Ser Jeorge of House Martynn...

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Originally Posted by Geist

you can't pelt the Dravanian Horde with chocolates

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Says who... that thing is their biggest weakness... and their final goal... getting all that chocolate. I'm guessing they are developing a totaly irresistible recipe and are testing it on the unsuspecting populace and us unsupecting adventurers.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

House Dzemael is said to be lorded over by a count; since Dzemael is about as high as it gets, this may be about as high as you can go before entering Holy ranks. In 1.0, a levequst referred to a Duke - how that guy fit into it, I have no idea. Isn't Duke higher than Count?

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In the English system of peerage it is. However, we really have no idea how the Ishgardian peerage works. For example, in the French, pre-Revolution system, all the sons of a Count would be Viscounts. It's possible that the Count we've seen is not the Lord Dzemael, but merely a lord Dzemael. It's always seemed strange to me that the heads of house of the high houses of Ishgard would personally be in the lands outside the city. It kind of seems like that would be some sort of political exile. It would make much more sense if they were simply subordinate lords in charge of the high house's forces outside the city.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

House Durendaire calls its banners to retake the Stone Vigil, and Cailean refers to himself as a bannerman of House Haillenarte, whose master is his liege lord. The big question is whether the High House's bannermen are carrying that house's banners or the banners of houses that are sworn to the high houses.

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That's actually a nice theory, which accounts for all the evidence. Well done!

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Originally Posted by JeniLinsky

It's possible that the Count we've seen is not the Lord Dzemael, but merely a lord Dzemael.

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My knowledge of feudalism and bastard feudalism extends naught beyond high school history and Game of Thrones, so I might as well give you the clearest line I can find if you're willing to brainstorm it, eh?

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Originally Posted by Version 1.0 Dzemael Darkhold Guard

A hearty hail to you, adventurer. I am Dyrstweitz, son of Dyrstweitz. I serve House Dzemael, as did my father and his father before him. Like them, I have sworn a solemn oath to protect the count's lands and holdings from any and all that would do them harm. Originally designed to provide protection against air and land attacks from the Wyrmking's horde, construction on the Darkhold began several generations ago when Count Dzemael, fifty-third of his line and lord of House Dzemael - greatest of the four high houses of Ishgard - discovered a hidden network of caves while foxing near the Nail.

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And the Duke for good measure

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Originally Posted by Dream a Little Bream (1.0)

As he does once every moon, Ishgardian noble Duke Brett V will soon be arriving in Limsa Lominsa to conduct a routine inspection of the many export and import warehouses he maintains in the thalassocracy.

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Also, Inspector Briardien is rumoured to be a baron, and Ishgard's See contains at least an Archbishop, Bishops, and Cardinals.

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

Now that it's Valentione's Day, I'd like to know a bit more concerning their house.
Clearly House Valentione is not one of the 4 High Houses that make up the Ishgard's flag, which begs the question(s)...

Are they even recognized as a proper noble house?

If they are, does that mean that there are many more noble houses/families than the ones on Ishgard's flag?

What kind of political power/influence can they hold compared to the major 4 ones (as well as their standing with the Holy See)?

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As others have said, noble not high noble.

Little power compared to the high noble houses. Nor do they seem interested in it.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

.... Isn't Duke higher than Count?

House Durendaire calls its banners to retake the Stone Vigil, and Cailean refers to himself as a bannerman of House Haillenarte, whose master is his liege lord. The big question is whether the High House's bannermen are carrying that house's banners or the banners of houses that are sworn to the high houses....

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Yes.

IRL a banner was a lesser noble, fedually sworn to serve, and his contingent of household troops, squires, grooms, cooks, and his knights with their own contingent. Who are his banners.

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Originally Posted by JeniLinsky

In the English system of peerage it is.

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Actually there are no dukes in England. They have earls instead. But the wife of an earl is a duchess.

Despite having a degree in this stuff I have never been able to figure that one out.

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Originally Posted by Shadygrove

Actually there are no dukes in England. They have earls instead. But the wife of an earl is a duchess.

Despite having a degree in this stuff I have never been able to figure that one out.

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There is Dukes, Prince Phillip himself is the Duke of Edinburgh, Prince Andrew is the Duke of York, Prince Richard is the Duke of Gloucester, and Prince Edward is the Duke of Kent. The next in line, Prince Charles is the Duke of both Cornwall and Rothesay, Queen Elizabeth II herself is the Duke of Lancaster. Though to be fair, I only know about the Princes having second titles due to being British myself, lol.

Monarchy and nobility is kinda my thing, but everything been answered already.

yes, Duke is the highest form of nobility. (Monarchs being royal rather then noble, theocracy aside).
Dukes report directly to the sovereign in return for management of a area for the sovereign and under them is a complex tree of nobles who run even smaller patches of land for them.

Normally lesser nobles report to the one above in the structure, being the bannerman as stated.

The counts we have met thus far -may- well be bannerman to dukes in the city who control the house, and land (which most seemed to of lost anyway....) who would be bannermen to the Archbishop.

For house Valentione, means they could be anywhere in what is a large and complex system that may well have a hundred noble houses of various ranks, but as a lesser noble (being lower then a count, and even counts are sneered at on a sovereign level) they have only the power of that rank, which is this case is near jack all.

This does change from country to country, but the basic structure remains similar.
Under the duke is a Marquess (which not all countries have, england doesn't but france did.) Under a Marquess, is a count or in England that being the equal rank of a Earl (which has no female form and thus is a countess.), Then Viscount and right at the very bottom of the stucture is a Baron. Normally a baron doesn't have any clout to meet with anyone of any real importance.

Historically Knight had been linked to being a form of lower nobility under the normal structure, but has been linked more recently with being a chivalric order which seems to be the case with Ishgard.

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Originally Posted by Chewy2nd

There is Dukes, Prince Phillip himself is the Duke of Edinburgh, Prince Andrew is the Duke of York, Prince Richard is the Duke of Gloucester, and Prince Edward is the Duke of Kent. The next in line, Prince Charles is the Duke of both Cornwall and Rothesay, Queen Elizabeth II herself is the Duke of Lancaster. Though to be fair, I only know about the Princes having second titles due to being British myself, lol.

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We've got non-royal Dukes, too, the Duke of Bedford and such, but I think Shadygrove typoed and meant "Count". We have Earls instead of Counts in the English/Scottish/British peerage systems, though confusingly we do have Countesses.* (Ask me about suo jure Countesses, if you dare.)

As for Dzemael, he mentions that the Count existed several generations ago, which may be the solution to this - it could have been the highest title Dzemael held at the time and they've since been elevated to a Dukedom. That's not completely unusual in a peerage system, most of them feature some form of power-creep. Dukedoms did use to be only for members of the royal family here and the rank of Marquess took a couple of centuries to evolve after some of the Earls became Marcher Lords.

What strikes me as interesting though, is how throughout the Ishgard quests/levequests, we've heard mention of duke, count, then archbishop... but no mention at all of a king/queen (or any other royal family), even in battle etc. Would indeed be interesting if it's a monarchy system without a king XD

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Originally Posted by FJerome

As for Dzemael, he mentions that the Count existed several generations ago, which may be the solution to this - it could have been the highest title Dzemael held at the time and they've since been elevated to a Dukedom.

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Interestingly, both the previous Count Dzemael and current Count Dzemael are referred to by various NPCs. In fact, the guard I quoted, whose father had the same name and also served the count? His son, same name again, currently works as a Culinarian at Costa del Sol and says:

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<sigh> Sometimes I question if opening the Flying Shark was the right decision. But if I wasn't bowing and scraping to some pretentious Ul'dahn mechant, I reckon I'd be doing the same to Count Dzemael. That may have suited my father and grandfather, but I've aspirations for a better life.

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What gets me is the lower-case instance; those sworn of House Dzemael have sworn to "protect the count's lands."

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Originally Posted by Shorty

Would indeed be interesting if it's a monarchy system without a king XD

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Interestingly, both the previous Count Dzemael and current Count Dzemael are referred to by various NPCs.

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Hrm, in which case maybe they're counts because the duke is THE Duke? Sovereign Dukes are the lowest tier of European monarch, though the only one left is Luxembourg.

Of course the Archbishop holds true power now but maybe the Duke remains as a figurehead given how much Ishgard hates change.

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Originally Posted by FJerome

Of course the Archbishop holds true power now but maybe the Duke remains as a figurehead given how much Ishgard hates change.

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This got me thinking about Occam's Razor, so I looked up the flavor-text for the same leve in the other languages. None of them mention the Duke but English, all of them are different. This got me thinking, "What if it's just a small oversight because 1.0?" But then I took another browse through Wikipedia.

No longer relevant

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Originally Posted by Wikipedia

The highest precedence in the [France], attached to a feudal territory, was given to the twelve original pairies <...> Half of them were Dukes and half of them Counts.

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The Elezen are based on French backgrounds, so ... perhaps this is a throwback to Haldrath's knights?

I recall hearing something about Thordan's twelve knights...

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Originally Posted by Koji Fox

Twelve Knights... of something? ... Something? Something round?

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Originally Posted by Naoki Yoshida

Something. Someth-SHHHH.

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Moreover...

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The Pope, as a temporal sovereign, has also, though rarely, granted the title of Duke or Duchess to persons for services to the Holy See.

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This opens up two new possibilities. [A] Perhaps the High Houses are from among a half of original peerage lines given the title of Count, being more military leaders and protectors of the realm than of ecclesiastic importance. Given that Ishgard is Halone > Everything, perhaps those descended from a half given the title of Duke are still unseen behind the walls, closer to the Archbishop than the Dravanian battles. Or, [B] perhaps dukes are just appointed every now and again when someone does something great for the Holy See. (Perhaps both?)

Gonna dig deeper into the French connections... I think answers might be there somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

And the Duke for good measure

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Originally Posted by Dream a Little Bream (1.0)

As he does once every moon, Ishgardian noble Duke Brett V will soon be arriving in Limsa Lominsa to conduct a routine inspection of the many export and import warehouses he maintains in the thalassocracy.

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Also, Inspector Briardien is rumoured to be a baron, and Ishgard's See contains at least an Archbishop, Bishops, and Cardinals.

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Before this speculation continues further, I must share with you certain developments regarding the man once known as "Duke Brett V."

The structure of Ishgardian nobility is not widely known, especially in lands so distant as Limsa Lominsa. Moreover, given the nature of Lominsan society, even well-to-do merchants may know little of such things. So it was that a lowborn Ishgardian, who through a series of events fortuitous and fantastic had built a profitable import and export concern, affected the trappings of nobility and convinced his peers in Limsa Lominsa that he was the esteemed "Duke Brett V."

Why he felt the need to adopt such a guise is anyone's guess, as his numerous eccentricities were met with widespread bemusement. Indeed, it was his penchant for ordering the same unusual dish every moon at the Bismarck that proved his undoing, as during one such visit he was confronted by traveling scholar, who declared with authority, "There's no such thing as an Ishgardian duke!"

The "Duke" has since grown rather reclusive, as one might expect, and his tale is now largely forgotten. Yet on occasion, in certain corners of Limsa Lominsa, in response to a dubious claim, some locals are heard to exclaim, "Hah! And I'm an Ishgardian duke!"

The one time I don't call it a day after thinking "maybe it's just because 1.0," it actually was because 1.0. (Darksteel) FOILED AGAIN!

Thanks very much for the update, Corvinoobus, and skillful clean-up on behalf of the team, as always, lol.



</adds "...and I'm an Ishgardian duke!" to his vernacular>

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Originally Posted by Corvinoobus

Before this speculation continues further, I must share with you certain developments regarding the man once known as "Duke Brett V."

The structure of Ishgardian nobility is not widely known, especially in lands so distant as Limsa Lominsa. Moreover, given the nature of Lominsan society, even well-to-do merchants may know little of such things. So it was that a lowborn Ishgardian, who through a series of events fortuitous and fantastic had built a profitable import and export concern, affected the trappings of nobility and convinced his peers in Limsa Lominsa that he was the esteemed "Duke Brett V."

Why he felt the need to adopt such a guise is anyone's guess, as his numerous eccentricities were met with widespread bemusement. Indeed, it was his penchant for ordering the same unusual dish every moon at the Bismarck that proved his undoing, as during one such visit he was confronted by traveling scholar, who declared with authority, "There's no such thing as an Ishgardian duke!"

The "Duke" has since grown rather reclusive, as one might expect, and his tale is now largely forgotten. Yet on occasion, in certain corners of Limsa Lominsa, in response to a dubious claim, some locals are heard to exclaim, "Hah! And I'm an Ishgardian duke!"

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Ah! But what of Archdukes hm?! Got you there!

And Earls?
And Magistrates?
And Executive Producers?

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Originally Posted by Dynza

Ah! But what of Archdukes hm?! Got you there!

And Earls?
And Magistrates?
And Executive Producers?

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Wait, what was that last one?

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Originally Posted by Corvinoobus

Snip

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This reminds me a fair bit of Timothy Dexter, the man who came from practically nothing, and had no true sense of business, just luck, a will to become a lord and call himself such, and a lot of eccentricity.
Was the story of Duke Brett V perhaps inspired by this?

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Originally Posted by Narctiss

This reminds me a fair bit of Timothy Dexter, the man who came from practically nothing, and had no true sense of business, just luck, a will to become a lord and call himself such, and a lot of eccentricity.
Was the story of Duke Brett V perhaps inspired by this?

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Possibly, and anyway there's the charm of a self-made man story. Ul'dahn residents would absolutely dig it - though I can see the slightly more (ah, irony - I'm Maelstrom through and through) sarcastic, hardy Lominsans handling it on their terms, as Corvinoobus explained in detail.

Anyway, while the Valentione are most likely part of the "minor" Houses, they're certainly good competitors for "Most FABULOUS across Ishgard". Oy, that chocobo barding!

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Originally Posted by Shorty

What strikes me as interesting though, is how throughout the Ishgard quests/levequests, we've heard mention of duke, count, then archbishop... but no mention at all of a king/queen (or any other royal family), even in battle etc. Would indeed be interesting if it's a monarchy system without a king XD

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I'm given to understand the Archbishop is the head of state of Holy See of Ishgard.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

I'm given to understand the Archbishop is the head of state of Holy See of Ishgard.

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Ishgard sounds like it's similar to the Vatican, where the Pope is legally the King as well as being the head of the Catholic Church.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B_UL-3_UQAAHuXw.png:large
The start of a long, proud pedigree.
Long live the Duchess of Wark!

I think what we really need to understand is whether or not Ishgard is a theocracy or an oligarchy. It might better explain how the government structure works. Let's start with a few things...


When we talk about the Holy See on earth, we specifically refer to the governing jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome (aka the Pope), its government (Roman Curia) and Vatican City. As far as the Holy See is concerned it is a sovereign state; complete with its own Secretary of State, ministries and departments necessary for governing.

When we look at Ishgard it probably has the same sort of organization. But rather than have departments, ministries, etc. it probably delegates its power to the High Houses of Ishgard. The High Houses then employ peerage allowing members from other noble houses (or lower) to join its house and its delegations. Meanwhile, the Archbishop can also employ its own peerage within the city-state (Temple Knights and Dragoons). I imagine that members of the four high houses can also be recruited by the church and lead those branches within the church as well.

The remaining questions are whether not the Archbishop is an elected position. And whether or not certain noble houses can also obtain the political clout to be a part of the governing process.

As far as the peerage process works, I imagine that its partially hereditary and based on adoption into the house. Like mentioned above, I don't think the peerage process allows them to employ Dukes, Viscounts, etc, but rather allow individuals or families to join the house and enjoy the benefits of that house. I can't really think of a medieval reference, but think of Star Trek and the how the Klingons have houses which the klingons belong to. Many houses with more prominent houses occupying the government roles and the chance of being adopted into a house and taking that name.

The other noble houses like House Valentione can also use peerage to bring in new members to its house.

But of course, the question about peerage in this case is, can a non-hereditary member of the house ever become head of the house? Or is it strictly a hereditary position? A certain moogle delivery quest suggests that it might be hereditary only.