MT etiquitte?

So I was just wondering, do all tanks have a psychic link to each other or something? How do people decide who is MT and who is OT, especially in things like CT/other more-than-one-tank situations.

I almost never see any discussions about this in the dungeons.

One day I'm hoping to do some tanking (when it doesn't make me nervous thinking about it) and I'd rather not make myself out to be more of an idiot than I probably already seem.

I just ask if the other tank wants to be MT/OT.

For my static, I was chosen to be OT because the MT had significantly better left side gear and I had access to i110 crafted dps accessories.

Whoever steps forward often signals that they're the one who wants to pull, other tanks see that, step back and await the pull.

Well. Mostly in ST/WoD you see 3 tanks in tanking stance all fighting over the aggro of the boss/trash pull's "boss" and all the adds roam free.

Judging by the way you asked that and the "additional info" you added at the bottom you want to get your stuff done well as a tank in raids (ST/WoD/SCoB/FCoB? If so, I advise to run as dps and pay attention (especially in ST/WoD) when adds spawns and generally what things OT's should do and once you feel comfortable enough to start tanking concentrate on being OT.

Keep in mind though, these are just personal opinions based on how stuff gets done(doesn't get done in the most OT case).

Simple. If no one says anything, I MT. If another tank starts fighting for aggro, I give it to him. Knock yourself out mate.

higher hp/better gear normally

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Originally Posted by Trixxy

Whoever steps forward often signals that they're the one who wants to pull, other tanks see that, step back and await the pull.

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Sometimes this happens. More often, all of the tanks stand around shuffling their feet and avoiding looking at each other until either one of them pulls or a DPS gets sick of waiting and pulls. Then the hate-pong begins. Nobody ever wants to START the fight but by god do they want aggro once someone else gets things going. xD

Jokes aside, it really does come down to whoever pulls first most of the time. If I'm tanking and one of the other two doesn't pull within about 20-30 seconds of the entire alliance arriving, I just go pull myself.

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Originally Posted by ItaruKarin

Simple. If no one says anything, I MT. If another tank starts fighting for aggro, I give it to him. Knock yourself out mate.

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This is what I do too. I wish more people would. It'd avoid complete disasters where adds run rampant through your party's squishies because the party has nothing but MT's that constantly spin the boss fighting for hate.

Off tank? What the hell is an off tank? :3

I haven't done many 8 man+ content, working on relic now so getting into it. I am usually vocal at the start of any instance. I always ask the group what they want to do. So if 2 tanks are involved I'll just ask. In general though it usually ends up being the higher of the HP or who runs off first.

I usually hang back, MT is the "easy" part a lot of times. OT responsibilities can get tedious, and go wrong if the one filling that spot doesn't know what to do and when. So in an attempt to make sure wipes are avoided that is what I prefer to do. We can send /tell in raid now, so I usually pop one to the co-tanks and ask who wants it.

If no one steps up, then I will.

Speaking solely from personal experience:

CT/ST/WoD: I usually just sit back and wait for another tank to pull. Typically someone steps up, pulls, and then they're the MT for the rest of the fight. During CT the other two tanks would typically fight over aggro because there was a really low barrier of entry for CT, but things were a lot better in ST/WoD. If I went with a premade 8 man then I'd usually be fine with MTing, but I just can't be bothered to trust random healers enough to take on that responsibility.

8man stuff: Usually just ask the other tank if he wants to MT or OT. If he won't choose then I just pull.

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Originally Posted by ItaruKarin

Simple. If no one says anything, I MT. If another tank starts fighting for aggro, I give it to him. Knock yourself out mate.

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Same thing for me. If I see that I can't hold hate, I just focus on adds. I still see many many tanks fighting for MT and totaly ignoring adds when I'm on my SCH. Having to run all over the place to stay alive is really annoying.

Ha haa, thanks for all your input. I don't really plan on maining a tank at all, but I do plan on at least playing as one, and I'd like to be competent about it when I do.
I also had no idea you can /tell in raids now. That's extremely helpful...ugh.

When raiding in an mmo, the two tanks usually send whispers to each other asking if each one is experienced in the fights. The lesser experienced one usually gets the easier job. Among tanks it's considered extremely rude to fight each other for aggro, (which I imagine is less of a problem in FFXIV since there are no AOE taunts). It's also a big no-no to taunt a boss away from the other tank if it isn't part of a tank swamp.

It's actually kind of funny. In a raid scenario, tanks usually get along pretty well. Outside of raiding, tanks generally can't stand being around each other.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

Outside of raiding, tanks generally can't stand being around each other.

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I'm the MAIN tank around here mother f***er!

When a 7 ft Roe walks into the room decked in Armor you already know who is the Main Tank ;-)

As my static puts it, it's all about asserting your dominance.

You pull first, you're the MT.

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Originally Posted by Animarelic

When a 7 ft Roe walks into the room decked in Armor you already know who is the Main Tank ;-)

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Sounds like the beginning of a joke.

Here's my rules of thumb for etiquitte:

Pulling and Deciding MT Outside the Heat of Battle

-If someone expresses desire to be MT in the chat before any other Tank does, let them MT.
-Otherwise... always assume that the most geared Tank will want to MT. This often overlaps with the Tank with the most Strength.
-Examine the other Tanks before the first pull. If I'm obviously the most geared, I'll try to take charge. You know, to enforce the previous rule.
-If people are putzing around before any pull while all 24 people are inside the barrier, just go take the boss regardless of Tank gear. However, the second rule applies more often than not and Mr. Geared steps up :)

While in Battle

-If a DPS starts the fight, every Tank is likely to go ham just so any Tank will have it. If another Tank has obviously taken the lead in this regard, back off.
-If a Tank other than myself takes it and then loses Aggro, I'll relieve them of their duties. Hopefully, it'll be before the squishy dies. The previous rule applies if all other tanks follow my lead.
-If an aggro fight begins and I lose aggro without another Tank using Provoke, I back off immediately.
-If another Tank attempts to provoke a boss off of me, forgive the first time. It is possible that they couldn't tell that the boss was stuck to a Tank. If the Provoke didn't steal the boss from you and it happens again, it is a sign of significant and petty desperation to be MT. If there are no adds or off-tank duties to worry about, it doesn't matter what happens from here. If I'm in no danger of losing threat, I just keep it. Otherwise, leave it alone if the other Tank manages to steal it for more than five seconds or so. If there are off-tank duties, then I'm fighting with a Tank who clearly won't perform them, so I should back off and go do them.
-If I fear for a Tank's survival, I sometimes use a harmless Provoke(Provoke and then don't attack for a few seconds) to ensure that another tank is number 2 on threat in case of a Tank death.

I wait a few seconds till everyone in the boss room. If no one goes running towards the boss I tank otherwise I don't care and take care of adds. Tanks that fight each other for aggro while the adds are running around after dps/healers are the worst.

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Originally Posted by Donjo

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that should be official rules for raidtanks :)

even if i feel uncomfortable to do "DPS" with sword oath - its not even rude to try and steal of aggro from the actual tanking MT by using provoke, it is dangerous for the entire raid. Aggro Ping Pong forces the healers to split their attention on two tanks that get maybe heavy blows (two hard hits in a row can kill you sometimes).

In Addition: wasting your provoke, makes it alot harder for you to grab adds of healers and DD.

At this point a question regarding provoke:

how does it work in detail - as i researched it just give a massiv temporarely burst in single targethate that decays even before the CD is up again, wich means for me, it is great for taking over the aggro or to get a comfortable start right at the pull, but its useless to maintain permanent aggro. But despite the "taunts" in other mmo there is no "forces the enemy to attack you for a certain amount of time"-effect on it?

Am i right, or did i missed something important?

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Originally Posted by CycLee

At this point a question regarding provoke:

how does it work in detail - as i researched it just give a massiv temporarely burst in single targethate that decays even before the CD is up again, wich means for me, it is great for taking over the aggro or to get a comfortable start right at the pull, but its useless to maintain permanent aggro. But despite the "taunts" in other mmo there is no "forces the enemy to attack you for a certain amount of time"-effect on it?

Am i right, or did i missed something important?

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Provoke immediately puts your aggro on the monster to exactly <highest person on aggro list> + 1. For example, let's pretend these are our aggro numbers:

Tank: 1500
DPS: 3000
Healer: 1300

If the Tank uses Provoke, their aggro becomes the DPS's + 1, so the list becomes this.

Tank: 3001
DPS: 3000
Healer: 1300

This is why you always have to follow up Provoke with another attack or you'll just lose it again.

PS: If the fight has not started(ie. everyone is at 0 aggro), Provoke generates exactly 1 point. It's not the best thing to start a fight with.

ok, so its completly different from what i found in the depth's of the internet :) and it somehow does not fit its skilldescription ingame.

Thank you for your explaination.

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Originally Posted by Animarelic

When a 7 ft Roe walks into the room decked in Armor you already know who is the Main Tank ;-)

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yes, it's clearly the loli in the glacial coat

I enter any 8-man content with Shield Oath already up. If another tank goes from having their enmity buff from off to on after the duty starts, they seem to want to tank. They can have it. I'll just engage Sword Oath from there.
I'm also a lazy cat. I only check the other tank's weapon to see if theirs beats mine. If it does, I give them a few seconds to take the lead. If not, I charge. Replace my lazy "weapon" with a full on gear check and it's probably a safer habit.
Everything else has been discussed pretty well.

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Originally Posted by aisustrong

yes, it's clearly the loli in the glacial coat

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The catgirl with a bikini and a giant axe.

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Originally Posted by Donjo

-If another Tank attempts to provoke a boss off of me, forgive the first time. It is possible that they couldn't tell that the boss was stuck to a Tank. If the Provoke didn't steal the boss from you and it happens again, it is a sign of significant and petty desperation to be MT. If there are no adds or off-tank duties to worry about, it doesn't matter what happens from here. If I'm in no danger of losing threat, I just keep it. Otherwise, leave it alone if the other Tank manages to steal it for more than five seconds or so. If there are off-tank duties, then I'm fighting with a Tank who clearly won't perform them, so I should back off and go do them.

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So much this. If someone else tries to steal hate and manages to do it, I shrug and go pick up adds. Continuing to fight for hate makes me as much a part of the problem as the tank that's so desperate to have hate on the boss.

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-If I fear for a Tank's survival, I sometimes use a harmless Provoke(Provoke and then don't attack for a few seconds) to ensure that another tank is number 2 on threat in case of a Tank death.

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If a tank is low on HP and their healers are down, I will provoke it off of them and keep it. If they're just low in general, I'll use things like Cover/Stoneskin to assist and throw that Provoke out there without a followup just to make sure I'm second in hate.

9 times out of 10, it seems to be the person who holds enmity from the others tanks despite their best efforts to take it back. After that, most tanks will just concede to the other. Normally, when I enter a 24 man or 8 man, I take a look at the tank's gear, compare it to my own, and decide if it would be in the party's better interest to let this tank be MT for this dungeon/fight or not. I carry around dps trinkets as well to make sure the decision sticks properly. Normally, if a tank has better left side gear, I'd rather they MT, but as I focus my efforts on my tank, this is rarely the situation. If by chance the mood to OT strikes me, dps trinkets and no enmity toggle is just fine for dishing out more DPS.

I pull first on wod, gotta establish who is the alpha and its also the easiest job.

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Originally Posted by MidlaneGod

gotta establish who is the alpha and its also the easiest job.

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Bit of an oxymoron.

As a Warrior i noticed PLD players like to be MT ignoring the fact that whether i have more hp or not. I normally just let them MT unless I'm playing with my FC group, which the PLD would let me MT some because we both know that there're no different in our tanking skill, he is a good PLD player, I'm a good WAR player. Whoever MT, as long as they can do their job well. It doesn't matter, there're people who say oh war can't mt this or that but it's just because they never seen one good enough to do it

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Originally Posted by Blueskyy

As a Warrior i noticed PLD players like to be MT ignoring the fact that whether i have more hp or not.

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Little bit off topic. Did Titan HM last nite for the first time. Out of the 2 tanks I had the higher HP about 6700, forget the other though it was in the 5k range. However there was a ninja in there with over 10k, how does that happen?

As a WAR in CM/Prae I am the MT. I would be probably be the same as PLD but I was with a PLD the other day who had Shield Oath on and he could only pick one off of me in AoE threat. In WoD, ST, and CT I let someone else MT because most of the time it's a battle of ego (not skill, gear, etc.).

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

Little bit off topic. Did Titan HM last nite for the first time. Out of the 2 tanks I had the higher HP about 6700, forget the other though it was in the 5k range. However there was a ninja in there with over 10k, how does that happen?

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130 left side
130 ride side tank gear
or lots of pentameld

In a place like ST/CT/WoD, some tanks just call out what role they want. You either call first or take what is left. If no one does anything, I count to 10 and just pull and MT.

When during stuff like Garuda HM for bright lights in DF, you have two tanks. Pretty much if one tank is already in tank stance, I let them tank. Not much to discuss.

The only thing I can think of when all the tanks need to be on the same page is Behemoth in CT. 1 on boss, one on giant, 4 on towers. That's the standard. Usually people call out what they want and other tanks take what is left. With the dawn of WoD and the need to do CT weekly for carboncoat, Behemoth is always a mess since tanks don't know what to do (as well as everyone else).

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Originally Posted by Blueskyy

...ignoring the fact that whether i have more hp or not...

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If you are talking about your HP pool with Defiance up, then you're drastically skewed in judging your epeen by this fact alone. Sure, your flaccid size might be bigger, but your erect size might be lacking. By this, I mean that if you have 10k HP with Defiance up and the PLD has 9k, then you actually might not be as well geared, if you're judging by HP pools. Rate by unbuffed HP, not buffed HP, and you'll get a better comparison. This of course changes if you're using STR trinkets instead, as you'll be working with a smaller base HP pool. Soo... yeah... don't act like you're swinging a bigger trouser snake just because your HP is higher while buffed.

personally I use no buffs on pulls in 8 man stuff unless its a pre-formed grp and I know im mt.

if after the first combo im in lead and the boss hasn't flipped to the other tank then ill use cd's and precede as mt, if I lose hate straight away to anything but a provoke ill switch to ot.

as for ct, ive never tanked it. st tanked lots and I always pull as mt in mind but will switch of if I lose hate easily. wod havnt tanked yet but will probs very soon. but I wil do the same as I do in st, except theres some etiquette on Cerberus that says grp c is mt in the fight unless he is taking a battering...

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Originally Posted by CycLee

At this point a question regarding provoke:

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Enmity/"aggro" is calculated via points, a 500 dmg is essentially 500 enmity. Tank stances add a multiplier to the enmity generated by tank's attacks, and the "increased enmity" bonus on attacks gives another multiplier. That's essentially how it works. So how provokes steps into play is: the person who has most points is the target of the said monster, let's say that person has 10000enmity, if you'd use provoke, essentially what it does is even if you have 0 enmity currently, it gives you 10000enmity+1. So if you start a fight with it, its essentially useless since there is no-one with enmity on the boss, so you'd only get +1 enmity on it, which can be taken over by any other use o's skill (note: activatimg buffs I.E Raging Strikes, Presence of Mind, Fight or Flight, Berserk all gives some number of enmity, so if tank has only run aggroed a boss, if you pop a buff you'll get the highest enmity on the boss (if you're close enough for the boss so get add on your list of enemies currently in a fight with you)

If there's anything wrong in there, someone do corret me

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Originally Posted by Ceodore

If you are talking about your HP pool with Defiance up.

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No, I've tanked for over a year now and playing end game contents too, I know that comparing hp pool is without Defiance without anyone telling me with something called -Observation-. I uses str trinkets and str attri when I'm farming but all vit when progressing. Soo... yeah... don't act like you're the only one who knows your stuff.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

Little bit off topic. Did Titan HM last nite for the first time. Out of the 2 tanks I had the higher HP about 6700, forget the other though it was in the 5k range. However there was a ninja in there with over 10k, how does that happen?

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Ok... it doesn't really make sense when you put a DPS into the story. Ninja have 10k hp because of echo and probably gone into Fcoil or hp food? I don't find it very hard to explain why.

Bit surprised by all the feeling out and testing everyone does. Just talk to the other guy and ask if he wants to main tank or not. Why put more effort into it?