Since when has vote kicked been allowed for these things?

Contacted GM, and apparently it is perfectly fine and acceptable to vote kick for:

- Player disputes (of any kind)
- Differing game styles
- Watching cutscenes
- Boss tactics
- Using equipment they don't approve of

The GM also advised me to discuss things with the group leader prior to joining the group.

Which I clearly joined by DF.

Can these GMs please:

a) Be educated as to how to DF works, and
b) Instructed that kicking people for those reasons is NOT okay.

How can I recommend a Final Fantasy game where you will be kicked for watching cutscenes in DF?

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Originally Posted by CaptainGriffen

Can these GMs please:

a) Be educated as to how to DF works, and
b) Instructed that kicking people for those reasons is NOT okay.

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Unfortunately, for the most part these GMs will happily explain to you there is nothing they can/will do. They've explained that players can mostly kick each other for whatever reason they please, even those not included in the vote kick system.

There are a few exceptions. If it's to deny you loot or for watching cutscenes, you may have a case and should contact a GM.

sadly SE never take these vote kick abuses seriously. I reported some of the cases, GM came to talk to me and say they'll do something.

then I follow the guy I reported on the lodestone to see if he's gonna get suspended but nothing happen.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Unfortunately, for the most part these GMs will happily explain to you there is nothing they can/will do. They've explained that players can mostly kick each other for whatever reason they please, even those not included in the vote kick system.

There are a few exceptions. If it's to deny you loot or for watching cutscenes, you may have a case and should contact a GM.

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Except the GM explicitly stated that you can vote kick for watching cutscenes, and to resolve player disputes (which would include loot disputes).

I assume that if the majority of the group clicks yes they assume that the group has its reasons for wanting the player removed, and it doesn't really matter why. Which in theory is pretty sound.

Until you realize that most people just mash yes without even reading or caring why the vote kick is being initiated.

Sounds like that GM got something confused. Maybe he thought you joined in PF or something?

From what I've always been aware, kicking for watching cutscenes, or for being new to the instance in DF have always been considered vote kick abuse. I'm a little confused about that one.

However, the other points you mentioned. Player disputes, I'm not gonna want to keep someone in party if all they can do is pick fights with the other players, refuse to do things, etc. that's not fair to the group. Differing play styles and boss tactics, unfortunately it's majority rule on these because if you're repeatedly wiping because you don't want to follow their tactics that's not fair to them either. Using equip they don't approve of is a gray area because newer players tend to be undergeared with class appropriate gear, but who wants to zone into an instance with a tank/healer spirit bonding crafting gear? No one.

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Originally Posted by CaptainGriffen

Except the GM explicitly stated that you can vote kick for watching cutscenes, and to resolve player disputes (which would include loot disputes).

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Nah, kicking someone, so he doesnt get the loot, is pretty much the only reason the "do not abuse" text in the window exists..

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Originally Posted by Evangela

sadly SE never take these vote kick abuses seriously. I reported some of the cases, GM came to talk to me and say they'll do something.

then I follow the guy I reported on the lodestone to see if he's gonna get suspended but nothing happen.

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You do not SERIOUSLY expect someone to get suspended for a one time vote kick abuse do you? LOL..

SE needs to take a stand on "player disputes" and "different playstyles". Ie. pick a side and clearly define what DF is for - whether it's anyone's personal speedrun/spiritbonding tool or if it's meant for players to be able to experience game content in full as it was intended. Because most problems seem to stem from the lack of these specifications, and until they man up and get it out there (as they should have in the beginning, in my opinion), these problems won't go away.

It sucks but people are people. Haters gonna hate, & ain'ters gonna ain't.

A lot of the points have grey areas where it WOULD be warranted, though

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- Player disputes (of any kind)

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Pretty cut and dry and I really don't get why people think this shouldn't be there. If you're not getting along with somebody, why in the hell should you be forced to work with them? It boggles my mind that people don't get this. We're a team, and if we're not acting like a team for something this basic, then the rogue element should be dismissed from the team.

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- Differing game styles

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This becomes a problem when it overlaps with the first point, but can also hedge into other areas too. Again, you're a team.

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- Watching cutscenes

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This is the grayest area. While sure watching cutscenes as intended is fine, there are some cutscenes that require player input to progress. Watching a cutscene but not progressing them (i.e. going afk and expecting them to finish on their own) is grounds for holding up the group. It's considered a dick move for other reasons, though, and you'll notice that they haven't repeated the mistake with praetorium and castrum because of that.

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- Boss tactics

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This overlaps with the second point and I believe falls under incompetence, which they've said is reason for kicking someone too. And again you're a team. Teams should be working together.

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- Using equipment they don't approve of

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Another very gray area. But basically, if your tank is decked out in patrician's gear, you should reserve the right to kick him.

The GM/rep response from back in August explains that each type of kick reason shouldn't be interpreted to the letter and are instead broad suggestions, under which a mountain of reasons via context are considered acceptable. That includes booting the one person who insists on completing the duty in a way that clashes with how the majority are trying to operate.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2358628

Vote kick for disputes is to be expected and the GMs will need to sort it out. However vote kick abuse is not permitted. And there is a 4 hour limit on using the vote kick option, so it should not be used lightly. Usually it is saved to remove players who gone afk or offline due to network problems or other issues and you need to remove and replenish to continue and you won't be able to use the vote kick again for 4 hours. If players are being abusive, verbal abuse, name calling etc. and then try to vote kick, you should submit all your logs with evidence of their abuse for the GMs to see and they will act accordingly, although instantly since they are most likely undermanned.

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Originally Posted by CaptainGriffen

Contacted GM, and apparently it is perfectly fine and acceptable to vote kick for:

- Watching cutscenes

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If it's serious, I strongly disagree.

I skip all the cutscenes (even in a first run) to not disrupt the party's pace, but new players have the right to watch cutscenes during the instance, if they want.

Kicking players just because they are watching a cutscene is abusive.

Sounds like the GM explained it properly to you. Guess what, you are not alone on an island on a single player game. Your actions affect the group that you are with. You cannot do anything you want. If the majority of the group doesn't want you around anymore because you are doing something that they don't want, bye!

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

... If the majority of the group doesn't want you around anymore because you are doing something that they don't want...

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You and you group of friends do not count as a majority. Heaven forbid you DF into CT is the lone guy in a troll alliance, looking to cause wipes for lulz. I've called out those trolls before asking them not to wipe the raid and do the correct mechanics and they promptly abused vote kick and removed me from CT. Needless to say these guys were reported for griefing. But majority does not make it right or wrong, the GM has to investigate and make a judgement call so have your chat logs submitted as evidence. Needless to say some of them called me a snitch and such afterwards, because they got a penalties issued from the GM.

If you're kicked, it's a valid kick. That's the rule.

Only time I'd disagree/report is if the kick was to happen regardless of how I played or what I said, like a group kicking before a dungeon endboss to get their inprog buddy commendations/poetics.
And even then I'd be relying on the persons to be stupid enough to reveal intent in chat.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Sounds like the GM explained it properly to you. Guess what, you are not alone on an island on a single player game. Your actions affect the group that you are with. You cannot do anything you want. If the majority of the group doesn't want you around anymore because you are doing something that they don't want, bye!

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Pretty sure a large amount of people on these forums do not want you around but does that mean we should be able to vote you off the forums too? Fact is a majority rule does not always equal the best course of action or even appropriate action to take simply because someone annoys a lot of people, like you often do on here to others in your extreme condescension and arrogance towards other members of this community within your replies. My point is...mob rule is often extremely detrimental to society plus communities and should not be used to justify every action.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

You and you group of friends do not count as a majority. Heaven forbid you DF into CT is the lone guy in a troll alliance, looking to cause wipes for lulz. I've called out those trolls before asking them not to wipe the raid and do the correct mechanics and they promptly abused vote kick and removed me from CT. Needless to say these guys were reported for griefing. But majority does not make it right or wrong, the GM has to investigate and make a judgement call so have your chat logs submitted as evidence. Needless to say some of them called me a snitch and such afterwards, because they got a penalties issued from the GM.

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Seems like they did you a favor by kicking you. If it was a troll alliance, I wouldnt want to do the whole run with them.