Request for an official response to clarify

Whether the term used that Shiva layed with dragons is meant as she joined sides with the dragons, not that she actually did jiggy jiggy with them and made baby hybrids XD

Or not... XD

http://i1.2pcdn.com/node14/image/art...6j5seg13cj.jpg

Au'Ra is the new race announced for the expansion and the speculated (practically confirmed) race of Yugiri. The race is described as being half-dragon and half-elf. While Iceheart herself may not have lain with dragons, Shiva most certainly did.

I'm not sure that Shiva's actions are necessarily related to the AuRa, but yes you got the idea. I do think some clarification might come to light about the actual nature of dragon kind. They're not just beasts but actually an intelligent sentient race as far as I understand and likely can take a humanoid form.

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Originally Posted by The_Last_Dragoon

The race is described as being half-dragon and half-elf.

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By whom? The only official description I've heard so far is, "reptilian demi-beastmen." Admittedly, line about how Saint Shiva "lay down" with dragons could foreshadow the Au Ra's origins, but it could just as easily be an obvious a red herring.

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Originally Posted by The_Last_Dragoon

While Iceheart herself may not have lain with dragons, Shiva most certainly did.

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Maybe. The story is thousands of years old and appears in an obviously biased book of scripture. Why wouldn't you claim that the first heretic had carnal knowledge of the beasts you're sworn to fight? It can mean anything from "she made common cause with" to "she literally had sexual relations with" (in which case I do believe the game uses the wrong term to begin with. "Lay down" should be "lie down," no?). Either way you end up at the general concept the scripture is trying to convey - her association with the dragons has made her unclean. The whole thing is meant to be murky, imho.

Unfortunately, the biggest hint is dependent on an unknown nature of primals. Shiva's final words are, "Forgive them, my beloved..." Were those the sentiments of the true Shiva, or simply the sentiments of the aetherial deiform created by Iceheart's conviction?

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Originally Posted by Nutz

likely can take a humanoid form.

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We at least know that they can make you think they've taken human form. The Dravanians have strange and powerful glamours at their disposal. The same thing in reverse, the heretics who use Dragon's Blood are able to project the form of scalekin, though the main scenario confirms that this is just an illusion. I'm not sure if the dragons can truly shapeshift, though. We'll see in time, I suppose!

I'm sure Square made that bit of script as ambiguous as possible to keep us in the dark. We won't know anything till 3.0 or 2.5.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

It can mean anything from "she made common cause with" to "she literally had sexual relations with" (in which case I do believe the game uses the wrong term to begin with. "Lay down" should be "lie down," no?).

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Lay is the past tense of lie, so to say she lay down with dragons would be the correct term. Everything about the presentation of it (in English, at least) makes it clear they're saying she had sex with a dragon. As you correctly note elsewhere in your post, though, that's only what the characters are saying, not necessarily the truth.

Edit: And, of course, the game is entirely silent as to whether there were offspring from the union. . .

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Lay is the past tense of lie, so to say she lay down with dragons would be the correct term.

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Aha, there's where my reference failed me. Lay is the past tense of lie specifically when pertaining to position...

I suppose that clears up a thing or two about context...

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Thanks!

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No problem. I'm always surprised that people have issues believing that this is what the characters are saying happened (whether or not it did). I guess because the idea is somewhat outlandish? I mean, even the characters seem a bit baffled by the idea. . .

Of course, many who accept it then go on to assert that Au Ra are the resulting offspring, which, while an interesting idea, is something the game has been silent about. There's no reason yet to rule it out, but it isn't established yet, either. People just seem to be asserting it as fact around here. . .

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Of course, many who accept it then go on to assert that Au Ra are the resulting offspring, which, while an interesting idea, is something the game has been silent about. There's no reason yet to rule it out, but it isn't established yet, either. People just seem to be asserting it as fact around here. . .

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I remain sceptic on both accounts. I still doubt that Shiva litterally did the horizontal tango with a dragon, and as a result am also sceptic on Au Ra being of dravanian origin.

It irks me a bit that people indeed think of it as fact, while we know little to nothing about their origin.

Of course, they may turn out to be exactly that, in which case I will eat my words.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

jiggy jiggy

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first thing I remember...
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/XHt9bdW1lqg/hqdefault.jpg

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Originally Posted by Alice_89th

I remain sceptic on both accounts. I still doubt that Shiva litterally did the horizontal tango with a dragon, and as a result am also sceptic on Au Ra being of dravanian origin.

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My thoughts exactly. That the phrase laying with a dragon doesn't imply sexual contact but used as another way of saying "Sleeping with the enemy" Which, of course, does not imply actually going to bed with the enemy.

The case of Au Ra. Lets take humans and apes. Way back in time you had (i'm simplifying here) Apes, one branch of them developed differently and over the centuries slowly evolved (in some cases just spend enough time on internet forums, devolved:P) to how we are now A race didnt have sex with a gorilla and make humans :P, plus the other branches went on to become different types of monkeys (gorillas, chimpanzees etc), The same may apply to Dragons and Au Ra, and also Miqo'te.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

My thoughts exactly. That the phrase laying with a dragon doesn't imply sexual contact but used as another way of saying "Sleeping with the enemy" Which, of course, does not imply actually going to bed with the enemy.

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Nah, it's pretty solidly implying she had sex with a dragon. For starters, simply siding with the enemy isn't worth being called a "blessed union." Secondly, you have Minfilia saying "How such a thing could even be possible is quite another question." You don't have to wonder how it's possible to side with the enemy. You have to wonder how things are possible when it involves a giant lizard and a comparatively tiny Elezen woman having intercourse.

Again, though, I'm only saying this is what is *said* in the game, not necessarily what we will find to be true.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Again, though, I'm only saying this is what is *said* in the game, not necessarily what we will find to be true.

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That is exactly the point of Minfillia her question, I think. They found an acient religious text that stated Saint Shiva slept with a dragon... and both Minfillia and Alphinaud question the accuracy of the text (in part because it is hard to imagine the physical act, in part because the text isn't exactly an accurate historical one).

I doubt we will ever get a real answer on whether it was literal or metaphorical, though.

I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure dragons can turn into human just as human can become dragon, after all we have several enemies who goes from human form to dragon.

Which means that even if the dragon she did it with didn't turned into human, he could had easily turned her into dragon to do it then turn her back.

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Originally Posted by Phyllo

I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure dragons can turn into human just as human can become dragon, after all we have several enemies who goes from human form to dragon.

Which means that even if the dragon she did it with didn't turned into human, he could had easily turned her into dragon to do it then turn her back.

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The enemies we have seen, I believe, have been dragonkin in human form. As was stated in a previous post this is simply an illusion. Upon the succesful completion of the ability dragon's blood they assume thier original form and begin using the attacks of other similar dragonkin, but while only attempting to use the ability dragon's blood while in human form. Cases of dragons taking the human form in anything other than an illusion, such as a complete transformation, in order to complete such an act as having sexual relations with an elf, have not been discussed in game and are merely speculation at this time. What has been told to us by Ishguardians so far can very well be nothing more than imbelishments of what actually happened passed down to shame the name of Saint Shiva.

A good example of this in real life would be what is taught to us in the United States versus what is taught to people in North Korea. We are told one version of history, while they are told an extremely different version of the same events.

Ishguardians are extremists in thier own right when it comes to how they deal with dragonkin and those who consort with them. I wouldn't doubt it if they attempted to drag Saint Shiva's name through the mud in order to discredit anything she might have led others to believe. The fact that she was considered a saint tells you how much the people thought of her, so the Ishguardians would have had to deal the lowest of blows and in the eyes of their people, nothing could be lower than sleeping with a dragon. Something so awful in the eyes of the people would soil her legacy for certain.

Now, let's take into consideration what we know about the Ishguardians thus far into the game. We know an Ascian is behind what we can only consider to be a very powerful figurehead. We don't know how long this has been going on for, but we do know Ascians are basically immortal, so it could have been going on for an extremely long time. At the begining of our adventure some of the first words Hydelin says to us are the words "Hear. Feel. Think." We have since then heard these words spoken to us by two beings we would consider enemies, Iceheart/Shiva, and Midgardsormr. At this point in the game we have lost communication with Hydelin (please spell check these names for me), have had her blessing stripped from us, and have been taken under the wing of one of, if not the most, powerful dragons in Eorzea.

I also think Minfilia is skeptical of the Ishguardians and dragonkin as far as where they actually stand, whether it be for good or bad, due to the fact that she knows what happened with Midgardsormr and decided it was best if we kept it from the Ishguardians out of what I am assuming is fear of what the Ishguardians would do if they knew.

Also don't the Ishguardians have a Garlean in their ranks? I don't trust the Ishguardians any further than I could throw them, unless it is into the sea of clouds, and therefore no, I don't think Shiva actually had sex with a dragon.

Fair enough, but well, as long as it is not explicitly stated by any npc who actually has knowledge of it that is not out of some legend, it's best to assume ishgardian people just tarnished her name out of hatred regardless of it being true or not.

Or at least that's how I think

And yeah I do remember seeing a garlean behind the pope in a cutscene

Is the phrase just as ambiguous in the original Japanese, or can we get a better answer as to whether or not she literally slept with a dragon by comparing the JP (or any of the other languages') dialogue with ours?