Stop the drama and get to the root of the issue

I know, I know. ANOTHER thread about the crafting changes?

I'm not the type to go off and start another thread. Typically I'll say my piece in an existing thread and move on. But the overreaction to today's announcement is embarrassing for the community and vastly unwarranted.

With that, I present three sections of the bigger picture. What is lost, what can't yet be determined and what is gained. Then, what I think those upset with the changes should really be focused on.

What is lost

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The following is a recipe comparison of two armor pieces belonging to the same rank range.

Current Recipe (Hempen Doublet)

1 hempen doublet front
1 hempen doublet back
1 pair of sheepskin shoulder guards (taupe)
1 sheep leather strap (taupe)
1 pair of hempen sleeves
1 spindle of hempen yarn

New Recipe (Hempen Doublet Vest)

1 bolt of undyed hempen cloth
1 spindle of hempen yarn
1 circle of sheep leather
1 copper ingot

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So most of the outrage is over one low rank example?

The argument is about complexity, yet there's only two fewer ingredients. But yet, those crying out that their complex synths are being smoked out seem to have a case of selective reading comprehension.

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While there are numerous types of materials and parts in existence, low market demand has resulted in shortages for a large number of items. In addressing this problem, we will gradually do away with intermediate materials that find little use, leaving only those that are central to synthesis. At the same time, we will narrow the gap between the requirements to equip and synthesize gear (across all steps).

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1.19 will not see a complete change in recipes. Instead, Yoshi-P and crew are gradually weeding out unnecessary items. So rather than make things "easy mode" off the bat, they're taking baby steps to find out what absolutely needs to be removed.

And ultimately this is one example of different low level options. There's no telling how things will progress as the levels of the equipment and the ranks required to create them progress. This is something SE should have hinted at, given the nature of people on the Internet this kind of reaction should have been expected.

What can't yet be determined

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Many of the current recipes have a secondary class requirement, forcing players to develop skills in multiple crafting disciplines. New recipes, however, will not require secondary skills at this point in time.

* In the future, it will be made so that players benefit from developing skills in multiple disciplines.

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While the need for secondary classes is, in fact, being stripped away, it comes with the footnote that there is a plan to make them useful as an intended mechanic down the line.

However, the example recipe shows that there's a natural need for support crafts.

Wherein the old recipe needed only rely on one other craft to obtain all ingredients, the new recipe shows there's a need for three class' items to complete the synthesis.

I say this allows for a more natural dependance because someone who is more dedicated to crafting will be able to level the crafts to the ranks needed to make those ingredients and ultimately profit more from the item than a crafter who purchased all but the ingredients made by their main craft.

This sort of natural system allows for a more robust economy. It allows players who don't want to be as dedicated to selling wares a chance to focus on a single craft and possibly make items for themselves, whereas a true player can dive in as much as they chose to -- and even control markets with tactics familiar to real businesses such as dropping prices below what those who aren't as dedicate or connected could afford.

But the system of artificial walls such as necessary support craft levels only serves to level the playing field as everyone is the same because they are forced to be by the mechanics of the game.

Ultimately, however, it's an unfortunate game of wait-and-see as only SE knows the future of the support crafts concept.

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Removal of Crafting Facility and Treatise Requirements

As with secondary class skills, crafting facilities and treatises are virtually essential for current recipes. New recipes, however, will require neither at this point in time.

* Alternate uses are being considered for crafting facilities and treatises.

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Again, a highlighted footnote to let everyone know, they're working out something. But again, there seems to be an intent to make entry into crafting more reasonable, and dedication to the system more rewarding.

In a previous letter from the producer, Yoshi-P promised that the changes, however drastic, would not negate the efforts players have invested thus far. And more recently, mentioned that in the event some guild mark abilities change, a limited time buy-back option would be made available. So even if your books change, you'll still get the guild marks to reinvest.

What is gained

Several major items have been floating around that I believe balance out the changes.

From the Letter from the Producer XIV under Grand Company system:

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Implementation of supply and replenishment objectives

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and, under Items, Synthesis and Gathering:

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Addition of new craftable items and revision of stats on existing ones as part of the introduction of new synthesis recipes (moved from future tasks

Through the new recipes, Disciples of the Hand will be able to customize gear with different attributes. Different colors will be applied to the same graphics to indicate the class for which a certain piece of equipment has been optimized. Samples to be posted on the forums.

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Addition of a system for Disciples of the Hand to perform materia crafting

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Addition of a system for Disciples of the Hand to perform "forbidden" materia crafting

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Addition of a system for purging equipment of materia

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There's a lot coming down the pipe for DoH in exchange for a minor reduction in the overall burden of ingredients required for recipes. Fair exchange, give a little to get a little.

No where in the given information does it say that the DoH classes are being relegated to second-class citizens. Nor is there any indication that they're being dumped as potential classes altogether.

If anything, the supply and replenishment objectives may indicate that there will be opportunities to do more than repetitively grind out the same recipes over and over in the linear pursuit of the next rank ding.

End notes

Constructive criticism goes a lot farther than blind rage.

If DoH and DoL would like to be more than just workers on a conveyer belt, you need to let SE know that you want real reasons to be more than crafters. Vehemently shooting down a single list of proposed changes based on one example contained therein will do nothing for progress.

If you want your recipes largely untouched, then support or even present alternatives to the true issue the complexity of those recipes presents; a problematic and frustrating leveling experience.

Let SE know there's a desire for opportunities for levels to be gained through social and world activites. DoH- and DoL- specific raids and quests. If a player can enjoy the process of leveling, a complex ingredient list won't seem so bad when it comes time to create mid- to high-rank items.

The larger aim of the development team has been to make this a game accessible for a wide variety of gamers. So far, they seem to have been taking the proper steps to attain that goal without harming the integrity of a core experience.

Have a little faith. And in the mean time, be constructive.

Wow. I guess cooler heads do prevail.

Well said. Everyone should take a few deep breaths turn on some sounds of the ocean and read the OP's post.

You obviously have no idea what crafters are taking issue with. It is not about simplifying recipes. We ALL know that was needed. SE is taking it too far by removing ALL parts, which are grind recipes for crafter leveling. They are also gutting our guildmark abilities without any sign as to whether these will get another use or if we wasted marks on them. They are not addressing the real problems with crafting and people who hate it will still hate it because the process is exactly the same. Get a clue please.

This post is very well written, and in a perfect world where everyone is civilized and cooperative it would be rather effective.

But unfortunately we are human, and this is the internet... and as has been observed in the past, when you mix the two, you invariably get Lowest Common Denominator.

You are absolutely correct in your statement that there is alot of stuff coming, and we are basing all of our comments on one small glimmer. But with that one small glimmer it puts the future of a big aspect of the game in a precarious spot. Part of the precariousness is of course due to our small perception of the imminent changes as a whole. And it could be that with new information many of our concerns could prove to be unfounded...

But the time to decide that isn't later. With what they've chosen to show, concerns have arisen. In order to have the greatest chance of having our concerns heard and considered by the people in charge we need to start voicing them now.

Granted it would be amazing if we could voice those concerns more civilly. But people being what they are, that's unlikely to happen.

I can promise you our childish actions and comments really only affect us, and have no bearing on the dev team's decisions. They won't see most of it. All they will see is that a certain section of the community has concerns. And that's a good thing.

I'll keep my flame war to other posts hope other will do the same too so this thread can be easley viewed by the devs.

my request is this.

1. adjust the lvl of some mats to line up with the synth no more lvl 40 WVR items in a lvl WVR 20 synth.

2. some items need to make multi items not just one 6 river sands (think it's 6) for 1 fine sand not good.

3. be able to sell more items at once, get the market moving abit.

4. make searching item easier, i.e. have i ward for armor parts of any type.

5. a "Wanted" item search counter.

think that'll be a good start b4 changing the actual recipes

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Originally Posted by Wynn

You obviously have no idea what crafters are taking issue with. It is not about simplifying recipes. We ALL know that was needed.

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Well, the majority of posts I've read have focused on the reduction in complexity of recipes. While I do feel I touched on the other points, I'll reiterate.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

SE is taking it too far by removing ALL parts, which are grind recipes for crafter leveling.

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While it's true they are going to begin the process of gradually weeding out unnecessary parts, the "supply and replenishment objectives" show that there's a chance they're considering alternative means by which crafters may accumulate the necessary points to rank up.

Plus, a reduction in the overall number of ingredients will result in some recipes opening up as grind opportunities.

It's often said, when one door closes another is opened.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

They are also gutting our guildmark abilities without any sign as to whether these will get another use or if we wasted marks on them.

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Again, they've made sure to highlight that they're working on other uses. In the mean time, many recipes requiring them may still be around until at least 1.20.

As I mentioned in my OP, Yoshi-P stated that there will be a buy back period for guild mark abilities in the event that they are negatively impacted by any changes. So even if the book is rendered useless, the guild marks -- and thus the invested time -- still will be of use to the player.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

They are not addressing the real problems with crafting and people who hate it will still hate it because the process is exactly the same.

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What are the real issues then? This was the point of my OP. Those quick to criticize the suggested changes aren't offering any alternatives. They just want to protest and are insisting things stay exactly as they are.

That doesn't suggest there's any issue at all. The majority of posters I have seen want the system as is.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

Get a clue please.

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I believe I've sufficiently displayed the fact that I have quite a grasp on the topic.

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

So most of the outrage is over one low rank example?

The argument is about complexity, yet there's only two fewer ingredients. But yet, those crying out that their complex synths are being smoked out seem to have a case of selective reading comprehension.

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Originally Posted by Sephrick

Constructive criticism goes a lot farther than blind rage.

Have a little faith. And in the mean time, be constructive.

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I usually tend to support long posts of such nature.
But sorry, the parts in your text i quoted really shoot down any points your trying to make. >.>

If your serious about being ''constructive'' you may want to revise those parts of your post.

Telling everyone against the changes that they are completely wrong, while completely missing our points,
while also claiming to want a constructive discussion is not a health combination.~

The major problem is people only skim through and see one or two items, and then make a huge generalization based on that. Like I said in the other thread, the same thing happened when the new repair mats were proposed. People were talking about (before it was even enabled!) how the economy would be thrown into chaos because no one could use their fents and branches anymore.

People just need to chill, read the dev posts a few times and give it a try. Then after release give feedback based on experience and not "sky is falling" doomsday theories.

Sephrick, you mention in your posted example that the material amount went down by 2.
Now from that i presume (my opinion) that you have little to no crafting experience.
A crafter would not look at the final amount of items needed in the actual finished item, but rather at the amount of crafts leading up till the point where you can start crafting that finished item.
If from that perspective you were to look at the 2 recipes you'd find that the reduction is much greater then 2 synchs.

By gradually the devs are referring to not instantly making all previously useful items obsolete, but rather waiting a small time (for example a month) before removing them from the game.

As far as your thesis on the economic improvements im afraid it would be bad for economy rather then good.
Half of what you posted is already in effect, or would be if the market wards werent gimped. And the second half is just wishfully thinking that the smaller amount of different materials wont be present on the market in extremely large (and thus inflatted) amounts.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

I usually tend to support long posts of such nature.
But sorry, the parts in your text i quoted really shoot down any points your trying to make. >.>

If your serious about being ''constructive'' you may want to revise those parts of your post.

Telling everyone against the changes that they are completely wrong, while completely missing our points,
while also claiming to want a constructive discussion is not a health combination.~

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I neither said they were completely wrong nor am I missing the point. I'm supportive of people wanting the changes to be less severe, just trying to get folks to think about things from a different perspective.

All I did was present and accentuate the few facts we've been given. I feel both my posts are objective and on point.

And yet again, those saying they don't want what today's preview suggests keep saying I and others are "missing the point."

Well then, please correct me and tell me what the point is. I've touched on challenge through complexity, leveling through the use of parts and a myriad of other complaints I've seen. For each complaint I've seen, I've simply offered a counterpoint to show that it may not be as bad as it seems as well as rounding out my OP with the kind of suggestion which would give SE room to pull back on any sort of sweeping changes.

So if I'm still missing some collective point, I'd be happy to be enlightened.

@ op
(I don't have time to go though the whole post :P I need some sleep, but i will come back to it tomorrow as it seem well written)

Ok your point about What is lost is shifted to support you argument in that post I feel.

Saying that we only have 2 less items is only partly true,
Your choosing to discount all the items that made the components in that item. so in fact the number if missing items is about 20 not including the shards (I cant remeber off hand but it was around 20, I did work it out in the other thread).
This and all the HQ possibility in all the components along the whole line of production is what the people making the complexity issue were refering to as being lost.

I would also point out that most people in support of not having this change supported some/most of the ideas. IT was mostly the removal of the deeper layers of the system (components and Guilds for some/most) that was the annoyance. But most agreed a slimming down/slight reduction was needed. (I have no stand on the guilds atm)

I personally believe these low level items should be re used in New weapons/armour that could be added to the game to increase player choice..
Giving the almost redundant items a better place witin the market for hi and low ranked players.

I will tell you one simple thing why people are raging over in the other thread: People don't want streamlining crafting of two iron ingots and one lumber together and magically have an Excalibur. That, is what the propose change is going toward to.

In comparison of this streamlining toward, say, fighting: Instead of having to go through a dungeon and kill some boss for mediocre drop, you now have the option of staying in town and clicking (Yes please!) button and the boss will spawn on your face. No, you don't even need to go through a dungeon with some random people just to get to the boss any more, and it makes WoW dungeon finder a really nerdy and complicated process that only the hardcore would use.

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Originally Posted by MariyaShidou

I will tell you one simple thing why people are raging over in the other thread: People don't want streamlining crafting of two iron ingots and one lumber together and magically have an Excalibur. That, is what the propose change is going toward to.

In comparison of this streamlining toward, say, fighting: Instead of having to go through a dungeon and kill some boss for mediocre drop, you now have the option of staying in town and clicking (Yes please!) button and the boss will spawn on your face. No, you don't even need to go through a dungeon with some random people just to get to the boss any more, and it makes WoW dungeon finder a really nerdy and complicated process that only the hardcore would use.

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You're creating a fallacy to support your argument. And an obvious one at that. The example items are rather low rank, both to assemble and to wear. There's no indication that higher rank synths will be as simple. Asking the devs for clarification in a kind manner is a better response than assuming so and basing every rage post around it.

And to use your example in another light, many low level synths are comparable to placing Rank 50 mobs directly outside of the towns and telling beginners that trying to make it through an impossible situations is "part of the fun."

If it's a matter of wanting the path to an item to remain intact, then there are positive means to communicate that. Virtually holding your breath like a pouting child will in no way achieve desired results.

There's no "easy mode" in the proposed changes. Certainly not one as dramatic as battle classes sitting in town getting free gear. Crafters still have to craft. From day one I've seen and heard nothing but frustration over the requirements to make a single item.

In my example, battle classes do not get free gear. They still have to fight the boss, but they don't have to move out of town, and through a dungeon to fight the boss. There's no "easy mode", because they still need to face a boss to get drop, just that the process to get to certain boss has been streamlined to the most. You see where I'm getting?

People are making a fuss over it, because knowing SE they are obviously doing it in the extreme, albeit extremely inefficient, method. They give you an example of a low rank recipe, yet they are clearly stating "Abolishment of Parts from Synthesis". No where in their statement that it will only affect low rank recipes only. That, is where it all begins. I very much doubt that it is a typo that the key words are missing in translation. Just like when Yoshida mention the surplus SP/EXP system will be gone, it is gone entirely, it is not gone only for certain level range.

Nice post, OP.

Double Echo's Chicken Little comparison is apt. The two sets of recipes, the unchanged ones and the new ones, will be available side-by-side undoubtedly to monitor what the effects on supply/demand and other economy-related stuff is. If it truly does ruin the game then it won't be a big deal to revert.

I personally see nothing but good coming out of these changes. I don't know why everyone thinks extremely rare items will get any less rare with these changes. You will still need rare materials, it will just take one synth instead of 5+.

Getting rid of all the intermediary items will allow gear supply to increase since materials will now be more "universal" so there will be a better chance of people selling just what you need to make something. And like what has been said before, the manuals from guild marks will have a use later and if not your marks will be refunded.

I'm totally fine with the recipes being simplified the way it looks they'll be. As long as we still have the HQ system, and with the coming of the materia system, I think it will have plenty of complexity.

All the factors and variables that go with the HQ system are what make the crafting system in the FF mmo's the best imo. That and the more serious commitment it takes to get anywhere in your crafts. Needing ALL crafts for the sake of random junk parts however, was just too much, and felt messy.

Other mmo's I've tried, the crafting was garbage. You buy some mats, you press a button, you go afk 5 mins, and then you're capped out in that craft. There was no HQ items, no real benefit at all to even crafting, and it just digressed to the point where having the crafts in the game at all was largely just pointless.

I don't see that happening with this game, so I'll welcome the changes without much hesitation. In fact, I really like the sound of them. Now I will be able to just keep normal generic mats handy on my retainer, and be able to make things for people in the blink of an eye... No more fussing around for an hour rounding up obscure garbage, getting people to make things like nails for a cloth synth, doing 3 other synths for the parts, etc. It was a nuisance, and I won't miss it. Don't get me wrong, I was a 'serious' crafter in FFXI, and still am in FFXIV, but that nuisance just isn't what I want in a craft system. I don't want complexity for the sake of itself, I want complexity as needed to accommodate 'depth' in the system.

The one thing mentioned that was worry me... Is that many of those parts make good skill up synths... I don't want crafts to be overly easy to level, but I also don't want to have to make 10,000 full suits of armor, as opposed to a nice cheap part with 1 or 2 mats. But, if they're gonna simplify the recipes, then maybe that wouldn't be so bad... Leveling up on those new hempen doublets wouldn't be too rough, but leveling on the old ones would have been the biggest pain in the ass... Especially because of all the parts synths you have to do for junk SP, just to make one synth for decent SP.

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Originally Posted by MariyaShidou

People are making a fuss over it, because knowing SE they are obviously doing it in the extreme, albeit extremely inefficient, method. They give you an example of a low rank recipe, yet they are clearly stating "Abolishment of Parts from Synthesis".

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They monitor item traffic. This becomes evident in their statement "we will gradually do away with intermediate materials that find little use, leaving only those that are central to synthesis."

As for the grind SP argument, the time spent crafting the parts they are planning to remove can be spent crafting something else.