Paladin: AoE Enmity? <Can I have it Please?>

From playing Paladin, (Note I am Lvl 50, but still consider myself new to it) the class struggles keeping hate on groups of enemies. Flash is nice, but the area it effects is very limited and it doesn't pull as much aggro as I'd like. And it is boring to just spam the saaaame skill over and over.

The circle sword skill is a nice addition, but I still think there is a void there.

I HAVE SUGGESTIONS! (Calm down everyone.)

Why not make Shield Lob hit multiple targets? Wouldn't that be fun? It would be nice to have some good initial aggro from the start of a fight and not have to use that perfectly-timed Flash as the mobs run by cus the DPS started attacking early. (It happens. We all know this)

How about a Hallowed Ground type move? Just have the PLD bless the area around his feet, so it does AoE damage and give aggro. That would work well. Kind of like Shadow Flare.

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are you using sheild oath? and whats your weapon and item level?
pld shouldnt havent any issues holding hate unless undergeared

10 points says this is an ilvl disparity issue... New tank, freshly 50, probably up against dps with higher ilvl... it's a safe bet to make.

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Originally Posted by Ceodore

10 points says this is an ilvl disparity issue... New tank, freshly 50, probably up against dps with higher ilvl... it's a safe bet to make.

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yeah thats what i was thinking
the past month, most people are like i108 or so, with 125 and 130 weapons becoming increasingly common
to the point where they can actually rip hate off you if youre just i90

Could be. I am iLvl 60ish so you know.

REGARDLESS. Those are cool ideas. You know it is true.

Yeah, my suggestion to fix this issue is alternate trinkets. If you have the money, get crafted STR or VIT trinkets, if not, a good set of unweathered gloam trinkets will fix it. That is assuming you're using the best left side gear you can get already. This role isn't really something you can just do as a casual who cares thing. If all your tomes are being syphoned into a dps or healing class, and your tank is just getting the scraps, then you're really just going to have a scrappy tank. It isn't a role where you simply make up for your faults by 'skill', because you need both skill and the gear to make it work. No amount of skill can make up for a sheer lack of defense and gear. Barely making the ilvl requirements for something still means you're probably as durable as a wet paper sack, and popping 3 or 4 cooldowns together to make up for that means you're going to be short lived.

However, I do like the idea of more skills. That being said, I'd rather see them focused more on DPS than on enmity. I feel we have enough enmity generation as it is.

BTW, your dps DOES seem to effect the potency of flash still, even though it doesn't do damage. IDK what the formula is, as there are no numbers really to calculate, but it isn't hard to test, as I've tested it many times in ST against other tanks of lower ilvl.

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Originally Posted by NKLanis

REGARDLESS. Those are cool ideas. You know it is true.

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Umm... ehh. There are some problems I sort of have... well, that I do have. AOE Shield Lob. For a precision pull where you're trying to only hit one pathing mob among several others with a skill that will do more than just give you 1 enmity (Provoke), having Shield Lob be single targets is preferred.

Enmity Aura - Your heart is in the right place, but it honestly feels a bit over done. Look more towards the dps aspect than the enmity aspect of the class for repairs. As it stands, PLD is just as viable at enmity as the Warrior, but extremely lacking in the off tank capability. And AOE is swell, but a toggle aura that dots feels like a really big Band-Aid for a really small scratch. I'd like to see something put on the end of Riot Blade to level out a dps rotation. Something that consumes MP instead TP, so that we can switch to it instead of flash staggering to recover TP. Your Aura idea is great, but instead make it a player centered pulse of damage with a 5y effect, dealing 100 potency magic damage augmented by str instead of int.

Area threat seemed to be an issue the entire time I was leveling PLD. (Granted I am still under my one month period)

I just don't get why if I am in a dungeon. There are 3 active Mobs, why do DPS classes not focus on the target I am attacking? Or say they focus on another target...why not switch when the aggro is shifting? Maybe at higher levels (I guess higher gear levels now?) people play smarter, but there was a lot of frustration leveling and learning to tank initially.

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Originally Posted by NKLanis

Or say they focus on another target...why not switch when the aggro is shifting?

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You just asked the million dollar question... answer, these DPS have a symptom called tunnel visioning. The cause is known as "Can't Learn to Play".

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Originally Posted by NKLanis

Maybe at higher levels (I guess higher gear levels now?) people play smarter, but there was a lot of frustration leveling and learning to tank initially.

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Lol... you give the dps at higher levels a lot of credibility. The game may have changed, but they for the most part don't.

P.S... I play all the classes and jobs too, so this isn't just tank bias talking.

Don't worry though, there are good dps too, and many of them you'll find as you rise through the muck. Try to teach those who are willing to learn, ignore those that refuse, and always be willing to be a student yourself.

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Originally Posted by NKLanis

Area threat seemed to be an issue the entire time I was leveling PLD. (Granted I am still under my one month period)

I just don't get why if I am in a dungeon. There are 3 active Mobs, why do DPS classes not focus on the target I am attacking? Or say they focus on another target...why not switch when the aggro is shifting? Maybe at higher levels (I guess higher gear levels now?) people play smarter, but there was a lot of frustration leveling and learning to tank initially.

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people not paying attention
if you mark and they still dont follow, then they just dont care

have you started your relic quest?
if not, go do that
youll get curtana and holy sheild, both of which are level 80 when you first get them and can be upgraded
the upgrade to level 90 is pretty quick and easy too
http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/A_Relic_Reborn

Well, I am trying out Ninja now too. (Lvl 38ish? Something like that) It is fun to play and there is a lot of cool stuff I can do with it whenever I feel like. Also, there is basically no pressure. Just mash the buttons until something falls over.

I have almost unlocked WHM too. (Cnj 28ish) Just so I can see what it was like to heal. (By far the easiest job I've played so far.)

In the experience that I have had playing the different classes tanking is definitely the most difficult and a lot of the things that make it hard are caused by other classes being lazy.

Well, either way, I would still like to see a shadow flareesque skill added to PLD and Shield lob should definitely ricochet. (CAPTAIN AMERICA style)

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Originally Posted by aisustrong

people not paying attention
if you mark and they still dont follow, then they just dont care

have you started your relic quest?
if not, go do that
youll get curtana and holy sheild, both of which are level 80 when you first get them and can be upgraded
the upgrade to level 90 is pretty quick and easy too
http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/A_Relic_Reborn

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Yes. I started it. I am on Titan HM now. Tried last night, but didn't beat it. Everyone said DPS was too weak? Not burning the heart fast enough.

I don't know, if anything I thought the enmity boost to flash and scorn kinda overdid it a bit. But yeah, even your flash enmity scales with weapon dmg so, it's not good to play tank undergeared.

AoE emnity..nah, that's no issue.

But how about AoE damage..I'd love to have some of that.

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Originally Posted by Slappah

AoE emnity..nah, that's no issue.

But how about AoE damage..I'd love to have some of that.

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(Warrior)(Yes, Please)

We had the multi target shield lob in WoW and it was sooo much fun to use.

are you using circle of scorn

AOE hate for pally lvl 50 is a nonissue flash/circle of scorn/flash flash opener and just switch your targets to keep hate up (and flash inbetween ^^)
Your suggestions seem ODD as like formerly mentioned at times you only want to aggro a single target out of a group with Lob (you see if they are aggro linked with those lines) and y should you give it an advantage in such a skill war doesnt have (ik theres Overpower but srsly if u play aoe hate war with spamming that then you dont understand anything bout hate build/TP management).
I play war and pally equally and cant say pld is in any way behind at lvl 50 if you learn your skills and rotations. Simple Flash and switching targets is the way to go

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Originally Posted by NKLanis

Well, I am trying out Ninja now too. (Lvl 38ish? Something like that) It is fun to play and there is a lot of cool stuff I can do with it whenever I feel like. Also, there is basically no pressure. Just mash the buttons until something falls over.

I have almost unlocked WHM too. (Cnj 28ish) Just so I can see what it was like to heal. (By far the easiest job I've played so far.)

In the experience that I have had playing the different classes tanking is definitely the most difficult and a lot of the things that make it hard are caused by other classes being lazy.

Well, either way, I would still like to see a shadow flareesque skill added to PLD and Shield lob should definitely ricochet. (CAPTAIN AMERICA style)

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low level healing is easy
level 50, no, especially not extreme primals and that fucking first boss on sastasha hm

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Originally Posted by aisustrong

low level healing is easy
level 50, no, especially not extreme primals and that fucking first boss on sastasha hm

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Agree on sasti boss (If thats not a healer/dps check i dunno), disagree on primals if people understand and do meachnics and dodge that is though (so almost 0,01% of the time :P) XD

Pld has zero aoe threat issues since the flash and cos buff. Your problem is your gear. Fresh 50s in it ilvl 60 gear aren't going to keep threat from dps aoe that's generally ilvl 115 minimum and that's just capping tomes since 2.4. If you run into raiding dps they are 120+. Your problem will work itself out as you gear up.

It's definitly a gear problem. You'll see a great improvement if you reach ilvl 100 and more ( which could be fast if you unlock Crystal Tower and Syrcus Tower).

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Originally Posted by NKLanis

Area threat seemed to be an issue the entire time I was leveling PLD.

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Here is something I see ALOT in DF with new tanks (PLD specifically). Before they even get to the mob or mobs surround them, they flash, hitting nothing but air. then they run to the nearest target and begin combos, failing to realize they will lose hate to the other remaining mobs in two casts from the healer.

If PLD's would pay attention to the effects and range of their skills, they would not have this issue. I've taught alot of tanks that I come across that do the above about this and the most common response I get is: "Wow! Thanks" or "No one has ever told me that" and there are some who just don't get it but i let them faceplant and then come to me after they realize they were wrong. And even rarer there are some that won't admit it, but would rather risk getting kick by the team when they find out how terrible they're doing and while someone gave them valid tips they elected to ignore.

My tanks are not very high ilvl (100 & 102). I've held hate with many on in party at ilvl 110-120 in some of the coils as well as dungeons/trials.

PLD's can generate ALOT of hate even when undergeared. Try beginning with shield lob to primary target, wait til mobs surround you then open with Circle of Scorn, Flash x2 or 3 BEFORE spamming FB, SB, RoH combo. Then flash every other combo, unless you realize you still have issue then you should flash, in-between each combo. While using Circle of scorn when it is up.

The above is not your FULL answer to holding hate as you need to be aware of what your team is doing at all times, specifically some DPS that have issues with counting numbered adds (If you or your party use this method) They end up DPSing #2 or 3, instead of the enemy marked #1 and you as tank will need to grab that DPS' hate. Also it would help you to occasionally swap targets to check enmity on each mob (make sure you have the "A" and full white bar under your Job icon) and hit any target that appears that you may lose hate on with a combo, while adding flash to keep hate from the other enemies.

There's alot more to tanking but the above is a pretty solid rotation and good advice for many new tanks to take in. It would also benefit you to get a high ilvl weapon as that also helps with holding hate.

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Originally Posted by aisustrong

low level healing is easy
level 50, no, especially not extreme primals and that fucking first boss on sastasha hm

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All the healer needs to do on this boss: If WHM regen all players or medica II before the boss spits the goo and use esuna to remove DoT from all players, let the regen heal the dps while you heal the tank and yourself.

As sch: Let EOS do the healing while you focus on tank and remove the DoT from DPS and yourself while casting whispering dawn at opportune times.

Also spread out. If you're all stacked and he only applies a DoT to one player it will hit anyone near that player.

I have no trouble with AOE threat as a PLD. Obviously, it's not as easy as spamming Overpower or using Steel Cy lone. But, it poses no real challenge if you're geared properly.

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Originally Posted by NKLanis

Could be. I am iLvl 60ish so you know.

REGARDLESS. Those are cool ideas. You know it is true.

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This quote from page 1 was the total reason for his emnity issues. At this point in time, you cannot hope to hold threat against ilvl 100+ geared players with you ilvl60 gear. It just will not happen. You need to get a minimum of an i90 weapon to even have a chance, but even that is not enough sometimes.

The first thing you should do is try to get your i90 relic weapon. from there, get your total ilvl up so you can run syrcus tower. Here you will get items that make acquiring an ilvl110 weapon very, VERY easy. Once you get that weapon, you should not have any more threat issues for a good while.

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Originally Posted by Able

I have no trouble with AOE threat as a PLD. Obviously, it's not as easy as spamming Overpower or using Steel Cy lone. But, it poses no real challenge if you're geared properly.

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since the buff, flash has felt much easier to hold hate with than op

I see your point ... but I feel it falls on deaf ears here. People here seem to be A-OK with the way the 2 tanks work for the most part. Just like the idea of a "ranged Tank" gets brushed off here even though other games have shown how it works.

As it stands PLD is the most boring tank job to ME partly because it lacks the AOE threat moves that War has. As it stands I'm having far more fun leveling up my War than doing dng stuff with my PLD (and I hate leveling, so that says a lot ..)

Well, personally I hope they don't add anything for AOE hate or damage in the expansion because that's mostly just useful in trash pulls. Most of our cool stuff (flash blind, shield swipe, shield bash) already works on that, and our AOE hate is fine. I'd like paladin to have more buttons to press during bosses, since most of our cool stuff that works on trash doesn't work on them for balance reasons. If they're going to give every class like four new abilities, I hope they don't waste one of ours on "paladin overpower."

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Originally Posted by aisustrong

since the buff, flash has felt much easier to hold hate with than op

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I don't know if I'd go that far in saying the above, but I agree that Flash is worlds better than it used to be...

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

Well, personally I hope they don't add anything for AOE hate or damage in the expansion because that's mostly just useful in trash pulls. Most of our cool stuff (flash blind, shield swipe, shield bash) already works on that, and our AOE hate is fine. I'd like paladin to have more buttons to press during bosses, since most of our cool stuff that works on trash doesn't work on them for balance reasons. If they're going to give every class like four new abilities, I hope they don't waste one of ours on "paladin overpower."

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While I get your post. I wouldn't care whether or not if they did add more AoE or conal attacks for PLD. I believe we have enough to press against bosses: 2 combo strings, CoS & SfW. Personally, I'd like to see more defensive toggles/CD's and perhaps some type resistance debuff skill

I don't think pld needs an aoe attack really, but it would be nice for big pulls to help dps,

i'd like to see a cd buff that increases our speed like haste, doesn't have to be for long but would help us gen hate quicker when dps is riding us hard. or if we died and theres a lot of enemies to try and pick up again.

I wasn't saying that PLD needs any AoE/Cone attacks. I was just saying I would not mind if they did add more of them. I'd rather a single conal attack vs them adding another series of combo strings for PLD.

I also like your idea as well.

Adding a cone attack would homogenize the class even more compared to Warrior in my opinion. I'd rather see something like a targeted AoE effect you can place somewhere for a duration of time, like what Bard gets with Flaming Arrow - the multiplier effects could be lowered to not make it imbalanced obviously. Reminds me of Consecration (original form) from WoW Paladin class.

Here's my rotation: [Shield Lob] first mob, move forward while monsters compress, go back, [Circle of Scorn] > [Flash] > [Fast Blade(Any Mob)] > [Flash] > [ Riot Blade ] > [Flash] > [Fast Blade(Any other mob aside for hit mob)] > [Flash] > [Riot Blade] continue rotation till' mobs dead.

Even I was iLVL 10 behind, I can still hold aggro to monster with this rotation.

Good luck!

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Originally Posted by keroo

Here's my rotation: [Shield Lob] first mob, move forward while monsters compress, go back, [Circle of Scorn] > [Flash] > [Fast Blade(Any Mob)] > [Flash] > [ Riot Blade ] > [Flash] > [Fast Blade(Any other mob aside for hit mob)] > [Flash] > [Riot Blade] continue rotation till' mobs dead.

Even I was iLVL 10 behind, I can still hold aggro to monster with this rotation.

Good luck!

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being 10 under isn't that much of a difference
problems start at like 90- weapon against 125+ weapon

Most, if not all of you, from page 3 on missed the conversation I think.

It was about lower level tanking, (prior to circle) and how boring/annoying it is to have to constantly use Flash.

There is no reason why a PLD shouldn't get an AoE damage move that they can drop on the ground around them. Most players don't even remember what it is like to tank at lower levels. It would help tremendously and after 50, if for no other reason than to make the job less boring.

So, with that in mind continue.

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Originally Posted by NKLanis

Most, if not all of you, from page 3 on missed the conversation I think.

It was about lower level tanking, (prior to circle) and how boring/annoying it is to have to constantly use Flash.

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actually op says he is lvl 50 and that cos is a nice addition but still feels the role is missing something.. pretty sure that means post 50 tanking not low level.

I think all plds remember what low level tanking is like, and is now grateful they don't have to worry about it unless in a low level roulette

I am the OP and the conversation evolved to low level tanking as the OP said not much tanking post 50 has been done. If you read the thread.

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Originally Posted by NKLanis

I am the OP and the conversation evolved to low level tanking as the OP said not much tanking post 50 has been done. If you read the thread.

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haha sry didn't look at the pictures just went from memory a few days back when I read it.. my bad.

Agreed on most of the people... ilvl issue. I just turned ilvl100 and everything seems way easier now lol... But then again, look at your rotation. Remember, you're not entirely DPS, so, if you miss some hits because you need to spam Flash or Circle of Scorns, do it. But be sure to have gathered all the mobs before spamming Flash and Circle of Scorns. And, you can always Provoke... Since it doesn't affect the Cooldown to other skills, use it in combination with Shield Lob ;)

PS: Now, with the expansion coming out and they'll increase the max lvl from 50 to 60, it's possible that it might come with some AoE enmity skill...