Action Trees for Customization

Part of what makes this game function so well is it's adherence to the holy trinity, separating players into DPSs, tanks, and healers, but at a certain point that gets really boring. It sacrifices horizontal progression for consistent and well defined combat roles. I'm perfectly fine with keeping people to one of these three roles, but I think that a lot can be gained from giving people secondary roles, including but not necessarily limited to these three.
First off, this can lead to people neglecting their main roles, even in times of need, so I think that these roles should be dependent on performance in your main one. For example, if a healer can excel at healing their party, a stacking buff might be accumulated via healing to be used for their secondary role's actions, and if they want to run solo, they might be able to summon an aggroing dummy for them to heal to accumulate said buff and to use as a weak, pseudo tank.

Secondly, this provides an opportunity to enable versatility at lower levels. Rather than having to trudge through low levels with only a few core actions, the horizontal progression this provides would make combat more interesting without simply being a boost to your main role performance.
Thirdly, customization of your character's play style would improve the game in many ways. Characters would feel more personal beyond their appearance and invested time, especially if the actions stand out visually or affect the flow of combat. There would be more to team dynamics than classes and levels. While you could still expect the healer to keep your hp up and the tank to aggro, there would be more to optimizing the battle than having everyone perform their duties well; for example, two secondary supporters might collaborate to buff and debuff just in time for the dps's limit break.

Lastly, a great way to implement this would be in a branching line of quests. Just like with class specific quests in their respective guilds, these quests would provide an action, and possibly also a trait, upon completion and unlock the following quests while locking alternative quests. These quests wouldn't need to have a particularly detailed storyline, especially since it would branch apart, but I would expect a decent level of difficulty and exploration, although it should involve a decent amount of lower level quests for previously mentioned reasons.

Does anybody have any thoughts or opinions on this?

*claps*

my suggestion(s) have yet to be sent to drawing board for correctness, your idea... is mostly sound, but why do quests for new actions when there can be a new exp bar specific to this, like a mastery or proficiency system.

masteries: attack, defense, support, healing

edit:just realized that in 14 it would be called an action log, like hunt and challenge but with repeated use of skills, crit counts(global), damage with your buffs, damage taken with your buffs as well as parry/block/evade, run distance, etc

I don't really like this idea. I'm not a huge fan of supposed "customization" in MMOs because of the plain fact that everyone expects everyone to be the "best", so as to optimize the customization in some way. What I mean is that everyone would end up being the same as everyone else who is the same job as them because there is always some combination of the "custom" attributes that max out your character's effectiveness.

An example is like in Rift. Yes you have three separate skill trees, that you can choose which you would even like to have, and then you can choose how you would like to spend your points in said trees. Sounds wonderful, and full of personal customization. But the fact of the matter is is that this isn't true. You may want to make your character spend points equally in all three skill trees, but this is seen as useless and incredibly weak. The community has decided that to be the "best" you must really only build your skill trees in very rigid, and specific, ways. So though it may appear to allow customization at first, the community will end up pretty much trying to force people to build a specific way. if you don't build yourself up to be the strongest you can you can't possibly hope to be fully accepted in the hardest of content.

I pesonally love customizing my own character, but not in MMOs.

then have the new skills open world only, with a autoswap to the linear set upon entering the dungeon

rift is a terrible analogy, they designed the whole tri soul system wrong, because of the snake 8bit thing with skills, instead of straight lines(the bottom half), *points to gw2* traits overthere work, you can customize without being ostracized(yes yes its a different system but still applies in 90% of the situations for 14)

the idea is for the possibilities to change something in both the devs and players, and see something new come out of it...

edit:you/they can also add a check mark for dungeons/roulettes to allow/block the players using custom builds with these new skills so things can stay as cookie cutter as they have been

I think something that's very important to note is that it's not just the trinity system that allows them to do the very careful tuning they've been doing for coils and onwards and present the very carefully designed challenges they have been. It's also because having purely static classes (or very close to purely static) gives them fewer variables to be attributing for in balance. XIV's class balance is actually very solid, and adjustments throughout the game's lifespan have generally been very minor so far, precisely because they aren't having to balance "haste ninjas vs shuriken ninjas vs katana ninjas vs tank ninjas" etc.

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Originally Posted by roninoftagrm

then have the new skills open world only, with a autoswap to the linear set upon entering the dungeon

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Two things:
1. Like it or not, players do get practice with their skills out in the open world; having it suddenly swap your moves in party content is somewhat jarring and confusing for a lot (see adjusting to PvP actions)
2. You can already do that kind of. You can just run around in your Class in the overworld and have a lot more customizability, you know. (Hell, I'm regularly in Trial Roulette as a Marauder...)

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Originally Posted by Garlyle

"haste ninjas vs shuriken ninjas vs katana ninjas vs tank ninjas" etc.

Two things:
1. Like it or not, players do get practice with their skills out in the open world; having it suddenly swap your moves in party content is somewhat jarring and confusing for a lot (see adjusting to PvP actions)
2. You can already do that kind of. You can just run around in your Class in the overworld and have a lot more customizability, you know. (Hell, I'm regularly in Trial Roulette as a Marauder...)

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i meant auto swap the way i use it, on my gld, i use riot combo exclusively, but have another bar with halone combo at the ready, something similar can be done, primary with gear set(it worked that way when i last did a GS/crystal swap)

the ninjas part:this would only happen if they added multiple roles to a class, and it was only possible in 11 through subbing a warrior, samurai, black mage/dark knight, etc

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Originally Posted by roninoftagrm

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Given that the cross class skills for each class are more or less illusion of choice, I think it's safe to say they'd do no better here than Rift did.

Also in GW2 most of the traits had little impact and were there mostly for flavor, at least when I played. Some of the skills there were outright garbage. GW2 also didn't have real end game.

I really liked Rifts class system and the skill trees, but the "customization was basically in the last 15 points after you'd capped a tree.

Wen I roll a character in wow, they get 3 options for customization and swapping between, the skill tree.

FFXIV on the other hand gives 10+ options for customization and swapping between, the armoury system.

Quite frankly I don't see the issue.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Wen I roll a character in wow, they get 3 options for customization and swapping between, the skill tree.

FFXIV on the other hand gives 10+ options for customization and swapping between, the armoury system.

Quite frankly I don't see the issue.

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this is about adding more to the game without stepping on toes, the armoury system can have an added tag on it for those who want real customization, roles, with a desire for freedom inside a class and not using a class because thats the freedom is shallow, i want to use swords, maybe spears, but mostly swords

enabling playstyles(class is not a playstyle)/skill options would add more, both to the individual player and to the companies pockets

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Originally Posted by roninoftagrm

class is not a playstyle

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Quote of the day. thanks for the laugh.

Seriously though, what is wrong with the way they are adding more classes? What you are asking is a huuuge undertaking with little to no gain.

Were you around in 1.0 when anyone could borrow abilities from any class? No uniqueness to class, everyone effectively a blue mage.

If you want this to be a compelling suggestion, you need to provide a risk-value argument that shows the costs of these changes don't outweigh the benefits. Right now I just see one idea in a sea of amateur ideas. How can you make your's stand out?

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Originally Posted by roninoftagrm

...why do quests for new actions when there can be a new exp bar specific to this, like a mastery or proficiency system...

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There are a number of reasons for doing this system as a nonlinear series of quests. First, it would create a tree of options while using all of the mechanics already present in the game, which is really easy for devs to implement and test. Second, it would keep it down to simple choices of which quest and subsequent reward you want at the moment, and even if you check online as most do, new skills and quests can be added at any part of the tree so devs can adjust it as time goes on.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

Given that the cross class skills for each class are more or less illusion of choice...

...I really liked Rifts class system and the skill trees, but the "customization was basically in the last 15 points after you'd capped a tree.

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This is exactly what I want to avoid, the illusion of choice. Rather than a mastery system, which would just be another exp bar for you to fill up, just like using points in a skill tree, having a skill tree that you are free to explore with only specific branching points determined only by your choices would be more like those last 15 points. Also, by making these actions related to your main role only by being dependent on your performance in said role, it would remove the idea of optimization.

For example, a dps that subs evade tanking would not have more damage output than one who subs mp support, but they each would have situations they're more suited for. The evader would have a bit of flexibility by being less dependent on the tank's aggro, but the mp support would be well suited for magic focused parties. Also, because their sub's performance depends on their main's, they wouldn't be focused on using their sub to improve their main but instead on maximizing their main's performance so their sub is most effective.

since i only like to focus on a few jobs, not the lv them all to 50 kinda person, i would totally like to see this. Would just have to ensure the benefits at the mastery level are all as equally awesome, and if one isn't don't nerf everything else... come up with a better benefit for the particular one that sucks.

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Originally Posted by Orenji-kun

There are a number of reasons for doing this system as a nonlinear series of quests. First, it would create a tree of options while using all of the mechanics already present in the game, which is really easy for devs to implement and test. Second, it would keep it down to simple choices of which quest and subsequent reward you want at the moment, and even if you check online as most do, new skills and quests can be added at any part of the tree so devs can adjust it as time goes on.

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i included the idea of the action log as well, which would act much like achievement log but add new skills to a new tab, which would take less effort, and is better for the devs than my desirable mastery/prof system, the part of adding quests requires some form of story behind it, while a log merely adds things to do thats more or less already there

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

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i wish i could play 1.0 right now... but its not possible

the skills are already there, limiting how many you can put in your CC subbar(5 for job 10 for class) is already there, adding a button here or there, a new log for unlockable alternate skills:say youd/id prefer a drg combo on paladin, using the logical animation system(assuming thats what it is) already there, you can use dps while soloing without coding new skills as a whole(impulse drive looks good on pld), balancing issues are only necessary on the source class not the CC'd class, and heres where the playstyle is in the hands of the players, use the limited CC to prevent OP function and done

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Quote of the day. thanks for the laugh.

Seriously though, what is wrong with the way they are adding more classes? What you are asking is a huuuge undertaking with little to no gain.

Were you around in 1.0 when anyone could borrow abilities from any class? No uniqueness to class, everyone effectively a blue mage.

If you want this to be a compelling suggestion, you need to provide a risk-value argument that shows the costs of these changes don't outweigh the benefits. Right now I just see one idea in a sea of amateur ideas. How can you make your's stand out?

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I mean this is how crafting is. No uniqueness between crafting classes. Every DoH is essentially the same with the exact same rotation and cross class skills. A lot of the DoW/DoM have more Cross class choices than viable options.

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Originally Posted by roninoftagrm

i wish i could play 1.0 right now... but its not possible

the skills are already there, limiting how many you can put in your CC subbar(5 for job 10 for class) is already there, adding a button here or there, a new log for unlockable alternate skills:say youd/id prefer a drg combo on paladin, using the logical animation system(assuming thats what it is) already there, you can use dps while soloing without coding new skills as a whole(impulse drive looks good on pld), balancing issues are only necessary on the source class not the CC'd class, and heres where the playstyle is in the hands of the players, use the limited CC to prevent OP function and done

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If Combat classes were like this I guarantee you every DPS would take Raging Strikes, Blood for Blood, Internal Release and Invigorate. So much variety.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

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you named already accessible skills, this topic has the idea of broadening that to useful abilities that cant be used by others, example:rog/nin has stealth and trick/back attack as well as mug, everything else is non exclusive(class not job), while cc is intended for nonexclusives like goad and the combos

my real support for the idea could be enabling combo skills for brd, and helping any class get something actually useful, like a CoS -enmity for a smn, to lower their weakpoint in groups

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

what is wrong with the way they are adding more classes?

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After reading a bit, this is prob. what i want to see: more classes with the same weapon-types (aka playstyles as roninoftagrm said).
As an example, we have Gladiators as Tanks; <NewSwordClassWithoutShield> as a DPS and a whole new set of skills; <DuelistWannabe> Dual wielding 1-handed swords with another set of skills; <SpellSword> with a mix of Mage/Melee Abilities (lets think about elemental melee moves with bonus effects like ice/slow, fire DoT, lightning with paralysis).

Y'all know what I mean... I'm currently struggling trying not to get kicked from Duty as a PLD with STR items (and sometimes not having the shield equipped because I don't like shields... and you can't hide them)

I know the game wants me to play LIKE THIS, but i just don't LIKE this, I love the game but... gimme some variety or ppl will hate me forever! D':

Yoshi was correct when he mentioned how, ultimately, action trees of that nature are ultimately just a grand illusion of choice, and to really balance anything well around it, there will have to be optimal paths and unoptimal ones. Paraphrasing a bit, but that's generally the idea. I think a better choice would be to encourage cross-class skills a bit more, or add some sort of combo/trait synergy between them that makes them clearly useful outside their original classes.

In other words, if Maurader were to equip Savage Blade, it would do something completely different than a 100 potency skill with enmity generation and a Fast Blade combo...I.E., something completely useless to any tank other than one with Fast Blade (Gladiator), and 150% useless to any DPS (who strictly avoids taking enmity, and would never waste GCD on a glorfied autoattack.). Likewise, a Thurmaturge's Ruin would be specifically different than an Arcanist's Ruin.

What I would love, is for cross classes to be the answer to providing some holy trinity breakage. Like, adding traits to enhance cross class abilities for Lancer, that enhance the skills you can use that Dragoon cant. Not in a way that would make Lancer a better DPS than Dragoon, but would allow a team of Cross-Class players to successfully do something that 2Tank+2Heal+4DPS would not be able to accomplish, like perhaps real 1Tank+1Heals+6 DPS, or even 8-DPS parties, where all 8 players actively assume tank,heal and DPS simultaneously.

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Originally Posted by roninoftagrm

you named already accessible skills.....

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But the thing is, Raging Strikes are only CC able by BLM and SMN currently, unless we go into a scenario wherein people would only classes (But still, it's proven that drg > lancer because of stat boost anD oGCD jumps provide more dps than being able to get Raging Strikes, and monk would lose Dragon Kick which is a full uptime indirect damage boost, (Blunt resistance down 10%))

So the only viable way currently for SE to implement such a free choises would with doing yet another restart of the game, unless you want to struggle with a long time with bad balance in PvE and PvP (Read monk being able to get traited BfB, Raging Strikes, Goad, Berserk, and HT (+15% dmg from drg skill) personal opinion: No