Discussion: Redefinition and Redistribution of Actions, Abilities, and Weapon Skills

One announcement in Yoshi-P's latest letter piqued my curiosity, and I haven't seen a discussion about it just yet - amid all the Chocobo threads - and this is the topic of overhaul to class actions, abilities, and weapon skills that they have planned:

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Revisions to the battle algorithm has led to the need to redefine and redistribute actions, abilities, and weapon skills for all battle classes. As these changes can't take place concurrently with work on the algorithm, we have decided to release the list of changes planned for all classes around the time 1.19 goes live. The feedback we receive from players at this time will help to shape our work, which is scheduled for completion in patch 1.20.

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I look forward to seeing what changes they will release for us to discuss, but I figured why not get the ball rolling.

Personally I would like Second Wind to recover some MP as well - perhaps have it renamed to Chakra. With the MP costs on the basic attacks as they are now for PGL this may very well be coming anyway.

I'd also like it so they change the guild-bought skills for PGL into Auto-Attack modifiers by changing the stance of the Pugilist to offensive or defensive - going back to what FFXIV originally had planned for PGL:

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

In my opinion, what they should have done is change the function of Light Strike and Pummel. Go back to the roots of Pugilist class design, as it was depicted on the FFXIV website before the game's release.

Have Light Strike and Pummel act as Auto-Attack modifiers in the form of stances.

Light Strike - 10 MP, 60s Cooldown
Adopt a defensive stance, increasing defense and evasion while reducing damage done and TP generated by Auto-Attack. Enable counter-attack chains*. Effect lasts 300s.

Pummel - 20 MP, 60s Cooldown
Adopt an offensive stance, increasing Auto-Attack speed. Disable counter-attacks. Effect lasts 300s

*The ability to use Haymaker, Jarring Strike and/or Simian Thrash in succession.


Now if they went with something like this, not only would it make PGL a much more unique class, but it would justify the MP costs.

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What are some changes you would like to see to the current game classes in regards to their skills?

I like the changes for PGL you brought up!! Chakra is classic FF.

I'm most curious about the THM/CON changes I'm sure they have in store. How will they resolve the conflict between the changes they want to make and the lore of these two classes? hmm

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Originally Posted by KalaKenshu

I'm most curious about the THM/CON changes I'm sure they have in store. How will they resolve the conflict between the changes they want to make and the lore of these two classes? hmm

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This has been a huge question in many players minds with debates raging on the forums since the letter. I too wonder how they will do changes/directions for these 2 jobs. Like so many, I had completely different expectations for these jobs based off the discriptions on the selection screen.

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Originally Posted by KalaKenshu

I like the changes for PGL you brought up!! Chakra is classic FF.

I'm most curious about the THM/CON changes I'm sure they have in store. How will they resolve the conflict between the changes they want to make and the lore of these two classes? hmm

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Yea, Yoshi did mention that most of the battle classes were done but some of them, namely the mages, were not yet complete so they're waiting before they release any info.

I would think the mages will go through the most significant changes - I wouldn't be surprised if the THM gained access to all the elemental spells since they clearly are pushing CON to be a base for WHM, thus leaving THM to have the BLM job.

At this point though, anything can happen!

- Sneak Attack and Trick Attack, Blindside and Collusion need to be buff'd.
- Ferocity, Raging Strike and other buffs should last 10-20 secs, not for 1 hit only.
- Keen Flurry and Cadence should be able to activate while in Battle Regimen Mode.
- Make unique WSs for each classes which only can participate in Battle Regimen, instead of any random weapon skills, this way a weaponskill chain can be made/introduced.

As I pointed out with the PGL examples I gave, I'm really curious as to what they will do with guild-bought basic attack skills. As they are now most of them serve no real purpose than some extra hit you can do every 30 or 60 seconds.

In general I feel like making them Auto-Attack modifiers/buffs would be a good place to start.

I've noticed that to play any particular job well (GLA in particular) I need to have nearly every class ranked up. And yeah, yeah, before I get hit with the "go level everything to 50, noob" reply, even though I play several hours a day I shouldn't HAVE to rank every class to 50 to be good. Probably personal grievance but time =/= skill in every case. I shouldn't be penalized for not wanting to master every single class just to be good at what I do. (Although I understand it helping, it shouldn't be a fundamental aspect).

Some of the enmity related Skills (such as Warmonger) and other enmity generation actions (Defender) should be moved to GLA while some awkward kinda DD skills from GLA (Still Precision) could be moved over to MRD in place of them. I noticed that on the current skill list MRD seems terribly bogged down in skills that are situation and meh and insist on the MRD tanking while LNC (almost said DRG) has nearly every single skill catered to dealing damage with some random THF-like abilities thrown in there.

Ideally I think they need to tailor each job to a more specific role than spread out all the useful skills amongst all the different classes. The beauty of this game is that we -can- level up multiple classes if we want to make some strange hybrid class, it shouldn't be mandatory.

Also this would be a great time to diversify the kind of damage each class does because currently for every DD class its "Smack smack smack, WS, smack smack smack, WS" and that really shouldn't be the case.

MRD I recall was originally designed to be an AoE master with those "huge hit" skills.
LNC was originally designed to be a distance hitter who used strategy to place hits in specific spots
PUG was supposed to be your typical fighter but with some rogue aspects to it as well.
ARC is an archer and does what it does very well.

Why not go back to the original model and start from the ground up making the classes do what they were conceptualized to do? (ie: possibly make MRD standard axe swing an AoE instead of giving Broad Swing the shaft, give LNC more weapon skills that are dependent on where they are in relation to the enemy (left, right, front, back) and more strategic abilities, give PUG kick attacks and counter attacks and more skills that let them dodge and counter or go in and give the mob hell leaving themselves exposed.)

Speaking of PUG, where is the ability to change from offensive to defensive stances like we were told was going to be able to be done? And where is LNC's Overrun ability that got me very intrigued.

@Synapse: I really like that idea, I suggested something similiar in a long-forgotten BR thread that each class needs special TP attacks based on some kind of meter separate from regular weapon skills that can be used for chaining as not to interrupt the flow of combat.

EDIT: Kind of went on a tl;dr there ^^; Thanks to anyone who reads the whole thing.

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Originally Posted by Razor

I've noticed that to play any particular job well (GLA in particular) I need to have nearly every class ranked up. And yeah, yeah, before I get hit with the "go level everything to 50, noob" reply, even though I play several hours a day I shouldn't HAVE to rank every class to 50 to be good. Probably personal grievance but time =/= skill in every case. I shouldn't be penalized for not wanting to master every single class just to be good at what I do. (Although I understand it helping, it shouldn't be a fundamental aspect).

Some of the enmity related Skills (such as Warmonger) and other enmity generation actions (Defender) should be moved to GLA while some awkward kinda DD skills from GLA (Still Precision) could be moved over to MRD in place of them. I noticed that on the current skill list MRD seems terribly bogged down in skills that are situation and meh and insist on the MRD tanking while LNC (almost said DRG) has nearly every single skill catered to dealing damage with some random THF-like abilities thrown in there.

Ideally I think they need to tailor each job to a more specific role than spread out all the useful skills amongst all the different classes. The beauty of this game is that we -can- level up multiple classes if we want to make some strange hybrid class, it shouldn't be mandatory.

Also this would be a great time to diversify the kind of damage each class does because currently for every DD class its "Smack smack smack, WS, smack smack smack, WS" and that really shouldn't be the case.

MRD I recall was originally designed to be an AoE master with those "huge hit" skills.
LNC was originally designed to be a distance hitter who used strategy to place hits in specific spots
PUG was supposed to be your typical fighter but with some rogue aspects to it as well.
ARC is an archer and does what it does very well.

Why not go back to the original model and start from the ground up making the classes do what they were conceptualized to do? (ie: possibly make MRD standard axe swing an AoE instead of giving Broad Swing the shaft, give LNC more weapon skills that are dependent on where they are in relation to the enemy (left, right, front, back) and more strategic abilities, give PUG kick attacks and counter attacks and more skills that let them dodge and counter or go in and give the mob hell leaving themselves exposed.)

Speaking of PUG, where is the ability to change from offensive to defensive stances like we were told was going to be able to be done? And where is LNC's Overrun ability that got me very intrigued.

@Synapse: I really like that idea, I suggested something similiar in a long-forgotten BR thread that each class needs special TP attacks based on some kind of meter separate from regular weapon skills that can be used for chaining as not to interrupt the flow of combat.

EDIT: Kind of went on a tl;dr there ^^; Thanks to anyone who reads the whole thing.

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The whole 'make classes fulfill specific roles' argument has been made countless times. That's essentially what they are introducing Jobs for.

When you play on any class they all have the potential to solo effectively, but when it comes to party play and filling certain roles - while come classes are naturally more adept at them than others, it becomes necessary to rank multiple classes for sub skills.

When Jobs hit however, this will no longer be necessary. The Job will fill that purpose by itself.

A popular example would be the tank. Currently players can tank on GLA, PGL, or MRD. However to tank effectively one requires to have all 3 of them ranked sufficiently, as well as other classes.
However, when GLA gains access to the PLD Job, and equips it, they will have access to PLD only skills that will make tanking/self-healing natively possible w.o the need to rank other classes - especially since most cross-class abilities will not be equip-able.

A lot of initial ideas for classes in this game were scrapped - and classes clearly ended up being way too solo-oriented by themselves. However, I believe the dev team found a solid way to promote both party play and solo play with the Job system.

Soloing on a WHM may be incredibly difficult, but on a CON not so much. I'm sure a PLD wouldn't be able to deal much damage over time but a GLA is much more capable.

Certain things you want when solo, and certain things when in a party. The Classes and Jobs being separate yet in cooperation I feel will satisfy both sides of the spectrum.

I'd also like to see MRD deal some more damage. While I'm only level 30, I can't help but feel like LNC and PUG both far out-do me in damage. Especially when they get their 2k TP abilities so much earlier than MRD does.

Also, I think the accuracy of ALL Weapon Skills needs to be raised. It's extremely annoying to save up 3k TP and whiff even with 2 acc+5 rings and a decent amount of DEX. WS should be at least a 75% hit rate or something. It makes no sense that they have just as much of a chance to miss as regular attacks do.

*Updated OP with an earlier quote of mine to demonstrate my idea on how guild-bought basic attacks should work.*

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

What are some changes you would like to see to the current game classes in regards to their skills?

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Rearrange almost all of the mage skills to be either a healer or dps.

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Originally Posted by Tibian

Rearrange almost all of the mage skills to be either a healer or dps.

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I'm actually quite confused as to how they are going to full off WHM and BLM. THM just doesn't fit..unless they have something else planned for THM, job-wise. But that would mean 2 jobs for CON, and we all know everyone would freak if that happened even if it is obvious that CON is technically two classes.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

The whole 'make classes fulfill specific roles' argument has been made countless times. That's essentially what they are introducing Jobs for.

When you play on any class they all have the potential to solo effectively, but when it comes to party play and filling certain roles - while come classes are naturally more adept at them than others, it becomes necessary to rank multiple classes for sub skills.

When Jobs hit however, this will no longer be necessary. The Job will fill that purpose by itself.

A popular example would be the tank. Currently players can tank on GLA, PGL, or MRD. However to tank effectively one requires to have all 3 of them ranked sufficiently, as well as other classes.
However, when GLA gains access to the PLD Job, and equips it, they will have access to PLD only skills that will make tanking/self-healing natively possible w.o the need to rank other classes - especially since most cross-class abilities will not be equip-able.

A lot of initial ideas for classes in this game were scrapped - and classes clearly ended up being way too solo-oriented by themselves. However, I believe the dev team found a solid way to promote both party play and solo play with the Job system.

Soloing on a WHM may be incredibly difficult, but on a CON not so much. I'm sure a PLD wouldn't be able to deal much damage over time but a GLA is much more capable.

Certain things you want when solo, and certain things when in a party. The Classes and Jobs being separate yet in cooperation I feel will satisfy both sides of the spectrum.

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I was aware of the job system but the job system won't be around until 1.20 which is the same time they will be finalizing skill changes so I opted to exclude it from my analysis of the current classes. I've also learned to wait until the patch is actually released/detailed to make much of an assumption on how its going to work but I hope it is the way it seems.

As much as I don't like to bash the soloers because I've done the majority of my leveling solo/in small groups; as long as the dev team starts pumping out plenty of group orriented content (preferably the kind that forces various players together somehow, ie: behest) I don't think there will be much of an issue with each class having a more defined role. As long as they do the revisions carefully, they can maintain the solo-friendly aspect of each class while bringing back the initial flavor of each class. Then with jobs they can build on top of that by letting classes further specialize.

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Originally Posted by Kailok

I'm actually quite confused as to how they are going to full off WHM and BLM. THM just doesn't fit..unless they have something else planned for THM, job-wise. But that would mean 2 jobs for CON, and we all know everyone would freak if that happened even if it is obvious that CON is technically two classes.

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I honestly just figured (and am hoping) that they just aren't releasing both BLM and WHM at the start, since they just said what jobs whose names they had finalized, not specifically which ones were coming out first. Giving CON both BLM and WHM would be able to keep the lore around both of the jobs just the way it is and be a lot nicer to those that leveled CON as a nuker or as a healer, or hell even people like me that like doing both functions at once.

Also consider that if either THM or CON become designated healers it defeats the purpose of having WHM come out in the first place and makes it extremely difficult for that class to solo.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

I honestly just figured (and am hoping) that they just aren't releasing both BLM and WHM at the start, since they just said what jobs whose names they had finalized, not specifically which ones were coming out first. Giving CON both BLM and WHM would be able to keep the lore around both of the jobs just the way it is and be a lot nicer to those that leveled CON as a nuker or as a healer, or hell even people like me that like doing both functions at once.

Also consider that if either THM or CON become designated healers it defeats the purpose of having WHM come out in the first place and makes it extremely difficult for that class to solo.

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Nope they said the ones they revealed are the first batch of jobs being released - 1 job per class. So CON and THM are indeed going to get WHM and BLM. It isn't entirely clear which should get which at this point - which is why I expect the changes they mentioned being especially drastic for the mages.

A lot of debate as gone into the Con/Thm theory of who gets Whm/Blm and even Smn has been brought up. The issue with giving one job over the other is this; currently Con is an "elemental" job that for some reason has Whm spells. But, those elemental attributes use to belong to Smn and Blm. Then you have Thm. While it has a ton of other Whm spells, it comes off as this dark DPS type class. So how the hell do you figure out who gets Whm or Blm? LOL

Btw, if that came of jerkish I wasn't meaning to and the question there at the end is directed to no one it's just a general WTH type response. :p

Geesus there's 2 THM guilds, but the dark one is the one that you go to for quests. There is a light/life one as well. THM's theme is more akin to Dark Knight's, sacrificing yourself to benefit others, or in the case of the drain spells, sacrificing others to benefit you =P

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Originally Posted by Geesus

A lot of debate as gone into the Con/Thm theory of who gets Whm/Blm and even Smn has been brought up. The issue with giving one job over the other is this; currently Con is an "elemental" job that for some reason has Whm spells. But, those elemental attributes use to belong to Smn and Blm. Then you have Thm. While it has a ton of other Whm spells, it comes off as this dark DPS type class. So how the hell do you figure out who gets Whm or Blm? LOL

Btw, if that came of jerkish I wasn't meaning to and the question there at the end is directed to no one it's just a general WTH type response. :p

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Exactly.

This is why I think the answer to that question will only become clear after they release their proposed changes to the CON and THM classes alongside 1.19.

So on a more progressive note;

What sort of skill swaps and changes to the two mage classes do you guys expect? How do you think THM and CON skillsets will look, or even should look, to accommodate the BLM and WHM jobs?

No hype on this topic? :/

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

No hype on this topic? :/

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People are still really focused on talking endlessly about crafting/hq/materia atm, you know how knee jerky some posters are. I think people who are able to see past the hot button issue of the week, wonder where the pieces are going to fall after the game of musical chairs with the skill pools.

Us lore buffs are also wondering how any massive deviations from canon are going to be handled. Aside from that there is not really a worth while discussion to be had at the moment that dose not revolve around hyperbole and speculation and thus degenerate into a lot of circle talking and metaphorical table flipping.