The Worlds of Final Fantasy, Conected or not and if so, how?

I'm fairly certin the main theorys of Final fantasy's universe are fairly well known by now, those being the "There's only one Gilgimesh Paradox" and "The Great Multiverse Theory".

Lets start with the 1st.
The "there's only one Gilgimesh Paradox" is the theory that, via the Great Rift, Gilgimesh (and by extention Omega and Seiryu) that apears in multiple final fantasy games are in fact only one being, in other words the one that was 1st debued in the series is the only one there is. These three beings (Along with a few others) are capable of crossing the demensional veils in the worlds via the Great Rift (Gilgimesh being sent there by Exdeath, Omega banished by it's creators, and Seiryu it's self seemingly living there).

Now, the oposing theory, "The Great Multiverse Theory":
Acording to it, all the worlds are compleatly seperate parallel dimensions with no connection and that recurring names such as Cid are simply a person in the alternate dimension with the same name and simmiler traits.
Thus how we have Cid of the Lufain (ff1) who was a Sage/Wisard/Scientist, Cid Highwind (FF7) who is an Airship Pilot, Cid Garlond (Our own FF14) who is an Inventor and Enginear, and Soon to be Cid Aulstain of FF Type-0 who is a FF verion of Adolf Hitler and Cidney from the upcoming FF15 who is the Only Female Cid thus far.

Now, as for me, I say there is no reason both theorys can not co-exist.
My theory is that the void is an outer dimension that seperates all of the worlds of FF where as The Rift is actually a dimensional path way that connects worlds to each other (Think like a bridge between the two) that can only be opened under extreemly rare conditions.

So are there any thoughts or theorys that support any of the three ideas or even thnigs that could disprove any of or all three of them?

(And Plz no flame war over this)

Well, Lightning and Shantotto are evidence for it, seeing as they crossed from their worlds to Eorzea.

Gilgamesh seems pretty consistently the same across all incarnations, but is often accompanied by his companion Enkidu. Enkidu's form varies from time to time, implying that if this is the same Gilgamesh, he's relatively safe to assume he's going to come out on the other end of it as the same person with roughly the same amount of parts.

However, Enkidu being different in nearly every variation could be an indication of two different things: either Enkidu is a flux entity which suffers distortion during travel, or these are in fact entirely different people called Gilgamesh, which were all cast into the void from parallel worlds, by parallel villains and circumstances.

This stands up to a bit of scrutiny, as well. It's far more likely that an unknown/possibly infinite amount of Gilgamesh dopplegangers would be stumbling upon so many different worlds that we've seen, than it is for one specific Gilgamesh to have survived for so long against potentially abysmal or outright deadly odds across myriad worlds and monsters.

Gilgamesh is also frequently shown to have vastly different collections in each incarnation. In XII, he even had a terrible knock-off of the famed Buster Sword from VII, along with Tidus's Brotherhood.

One of the unusual exemptions to this is that there is a man known only as Gilgamesh in Vana'diel, but he looks nothing like the others, and hasn't been cast from his world. This very well could be one of the few (or possibly many) who did not meet such a fate at the hands of one enemy or another.

Having done some casual reading online, it appears that Type-0's story lays claim to the first chronological appearance of Gilgamesh, with him apparently originating from that world.

Crazy stuff, if they have it as canon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Davy_M_Jones

Snip.

---

I like where this is going. Since for the most part Endiku seems to be diffrent animals (In FF14 for example, Endiku is a Green Chicken of all things) it's possible he simply names any animal he trains "Endiku" after something (Maybe even an old pet) from his origenal home world. And it's likly that "Gilgimesh" as in the boss is a single entity while on the other hand there could be people, like the one in Vana'diel, that are simply called Gilgimesh but are not actually the same Dimension Hopping guy we all know and love. I'm thinking that merging the two is a good way to cover the holes in both but to be honest, with as litte concret information that there already is, it's hard to find enough limits to make a solid theory.

After all, the Devs have provided only vauge refrences as evidence but have like wise made no effort to discredit the idea like when Yoshida's team just flat out said "Midgaurdsormir is NOT a Primal".

I'm confused, why did you start another topic on this when you're already participating in another thread with the exact same topic for discussion? :x

I had the same question, but figured I'd just roll with it.

Best guess is because now it's his thread, instead of anyone else's?

Uh actually, the other topic was slightly diffrent. I'm wanting to look into the theorys them selves no "Who is or isn't what".

I've found no shortage of vauge refrences but I have found nothing that can prove or even challenge the theorys. Was hoping to attract some one with a counter theory.

This isn't about "Are they connected" cause every one agrees they are.... some how. I started this thread to see if we could figure out if/how and why/why not using the colective knowlage of this Lore Forum and any other source of information.

I havn't ruled out the Possibilty that Lore Guru Anonymose might weigh in (As I'm a fan of his lore theorys my self), and have the vain hope that one day if the topic is discused enough that the devs will give us a solid answer.

But any way, I was ORIGENALLY making a diffrent topic than the onw I was involved in with you two. You just kinda followed me here. ... >_> stalkers. Lol jk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Since for the most part Endiku seems to be diffrent animals (In FF14 for example, Endiku is a Green Chicken of all things)...

---

Chicken-Enkidu in XIV is definitely not any other Enkidu. Gilgamesh himself says he lost his friend so started calling the Chicken Enkidu.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Torquil

Chicken-Enkidu in XIV is definitely not any other Enkidu. Gilgamesh himself says he lost his friend so started calling the Chicken Enkidu.

---

It's also possible that he named all his pets Enkidu, considering we don't even know in which order he appears in the games ( except that Type-0 is where he comes from ) it's hard to tell which Enkidu he is referring to when he speaks of chicken Enkidu.

My theory on this:

I am confident that Final Fantasy is a multidimensional, single-universe world. This was evident in both FFV and FFIX and FF Dimensions when the absence of Crystal destroys the fabric of existence. In the beginning there was Void, and the Crystal shined light on the land to give life.

It's theorized that each side of The Crystal (for intents and purposes here we shall call it The True Crystal) is a completely different world operating on similar timelines. Time travel has existed but it's never destroyed the world, only modified it. That coincides with the crystal being the center of all existence and each Crystal found in the games is a reflection of its own. The villains in each game can be summarized into two categories: those who wish to control existence, and those who wish to destroy it. This frequently coincides with how they utilize the Crystal or whatever catalyst exists in the world aiming to do just that.

The Void is the only thing that ties all these worlds together, which is the absence of The Crystal (or The True Crystal). Without the blessing of the Crystal's light, the world is a terrifying hellish place filled with demons worse even than the Seven Hells.

Now Gilgamesh is a good example with Enkidu, but let's review this: Gilgamesh could easily have the same number of arms in each game but only reveal the others if he chooses to. It's also possible that the Void's power transforms and deforms him like all of the demons that exist in the Void. Enkidu was brought up, but how many times has Enkidu really appeared in the Final Fantasy games? Not that many, and as Torquil said, Gilgamesh states very specifically that he lost his friend Enkidu and named the chicken after him. In most of the games he's searching for his long lost companion.

The end of Lightning Returns was quite interesting, in how it SPOILER showed what happens when a universe/world dies (< Drag mouse over to see)

That's a really good point, Chewy. Aside from being surprised at just how much I really enjoyed Lightning Returns, it also helped open up the franchise's fiction to allow for this sort of thing.

I wouldn't be surprised if we saw some of these characters in, say... XV?

Honestly... I wish Lightning could have stayed ;^; that quest lines ending was so sweet.. i always imagine the atomos portals going between worlds now like they did in final fantasy xi.. or something like the paths between in kingdom hearts.. XD mostly otherworldly characters winding up in xiv seems either accidental or caused by divine intervention so far though..

Shantotto pretty much ripped a hole in vana'diel and ended up on Eorzea, Light was sent there to get inspired.. I wonder if anyone will come through intentionally in the future..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aryalandi

I wonder if anyone will come through intentionally in the future..

---

Well if it's the same Cloud of Darkness it's good for you ^^.

A few years ago, a friend and I came up with a FF-unifying theory. Here's how it goes:

Final Fantasy is full of repeating themes, roles and events.

Advanced fallen civilizations:
Lunarians ~= Lufenians = Cetra = Zilart = Ancients = Allag, Belah'dia, Nym, etc. = Magi ~= Bevelle

Which sometimes separate themselves from the rest of the world:
Moon ~= Sky Fortress = Tu'lia = Floating Continent = Nym

Powerful conquering empires:
Baron = Palamecia = Gestahl = Shinra = Garlemald = Galbadia = Archadia = Bevelle


And other broad categories that I'm not quite awake enough to remember right now. But this repetition of arch concepts calls to mind the story of the first Final Fantasy, where the world was trapped in a 2000-year time loop. The same events are happening over and over again...but not exactly the same. It's only a closed loop if you view it in two dimensions; the cycle is constantly traveling along another axis, making the universe a time spiral. A coil, repeating but never intersecting. This puts FF1 at the end, chronologically, since the cycle is broken at the end. It also implies that, since the themes had decayed into basic archetypes by so much repetition, more uniqueness means it's closer to the point of origin, and more cleaving to archetypes means it's closer to the end, allowing for a rough timeline to be created. So 1, 3 and 9 would all be relatively close to the end. 2 and 7 would occur at similar points on the curve, but with many coils between them. And, for the following reasons, 5 and 6 would be very near each other:

Kefka (FF6) = Enuo (FF5)

A powerful wizard wielding the power of unmaking (Void), brought low by 12 heroes, and whose defeat severed ties between worlds. This description applies equally to Kefka and Enuo. This isn't to say they are one and the same; merely that their roles are nearly identical, placing them at the same point on the curve, with bare few turns between to change them. Additionally, this could mean that, whatever else Gogo is, he doesn't have to be a slider, just really old.

Of course, this looping construct could, theoretically, make hopping between "worlds" even easier -- the traveler isn't so much breaking a barrier between universes, but simply moving sideways through time. (And what exists outside the coil? Void! Ahaha, that just came to me.)

Another strong tie I like:

AVALANCHE (FFVII) = Warriors of Darkness (FFIII)

As the Ancients spoke of in FF3, there was once a time where the the world swung too far toward Light. In that time of need, the Warriors of Darkness were called upon to restore balance. Shinra threatened to destroy the world wielding the power of life itself; AVALANCHE arose to restore the natural cycle of the Lifestream. Seems a pretty direct comparison to me.

That's about all I can remember right now. I'd love to hear if anybody has thoughts on or further contributions to this.

There are also Huge references to FF6 in this game. We can start with the Obvious ones:

The Existence of Magitek and an empire built upon it.
The Recurrence of FF6 Bosses. Ultros was the most recent one, but an incarnation of Gilgamesh also exists in the Game Boy Advance Version of FF 6 as well.
The existence of Doma in a very similar variation of the one that exists in game. (If Cyan/Cyenne is an indication).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmzRigh

Kefka (FF6) = Enuo (FF5)

A powerful wizard wielding the power of unmaking (Void), brought low by 12 heroes, and whose defeat severed ties between worlds. This description applies equally to Kefka and Enuo. This isn't to say they are one and the same; merely that their roles are nearly identical, placing them at the same point on the curve, with bare few turns between to change them. Additionally, this could mean that, whatever else Gogo is, he doesn't have to be a slider, just really old.

Of course, this looping construct could, theoretically, make hopping between "worlds" even easier -- the traveler isn't so much breaking a barrier between universes, but simply moving sideways through time. (And what exists outside the coil? Void! Ahaha, that just came to me.)

---

This as well is filled by both the Ascians as well as Emperor Xande in Sycus tower.

Less obvious but no less relevant.

The Mysidian Rabbit only appears in 3 Final Fantasy games. FF V, FF VI, and FF XIV and indicates Failure of some sort: In V it is when the animal ability has no effect, in VI when you mess up Setzer's Slots, and in XIV when you mess up your Ninja Mudra.
The switching of Stones to learn new abilities is very similar to how you would switch Magicite to learn new abilities. Reaching I know but I thought I would put that out there.
Both worlds have faced numerous cataclysms for very similar reasons. Initially the misuse of Magic and then later the awakening of ancient sleeping entities.

People really need to give all these connected worlds threads a break or at very least stop making new ones...........

In the most objective sense, any idea of such a connection does even exist in any form at Square Enix they have shown multiple times that it won't have and real effect or impact on each worlds lore and storylines. As such never having any real impact they for all intents and purposes do not exist to them. Besides beyond cross promotion and tongue in cheek references to the past a writer is not going to want to be held back by numerous connections to past stories.

Not here to start a flame war, I just think theres better topics to discuss then a vague issue that SE will ever offically confirm yet never deny.

These kinds of threads are popping way too often.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nama

People really need to give all these connected worlds threads a break or at very least stop making new ones...........

In the most objective sense, any idea of such a connection does even exist in any form at Square Enix they have shown multiple times that it won't have and real effect or impact on each worlds lore and storylines. As such never having any real impact they for all intents and purposes do not exist to them. Besides beyond cross promotion and tongue in cheek references to the past a writer is not going to want to be held back by numerous connections to past stories.

---

Half of what makes it fun to speculate is the fact that there is no answer half the time. That give us room to come up with crazy off the wall crap and still not be wrong XD

I at least agree that there doesn't need to be more than one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nama

People really need to give all these connected worlds threads a break or at very least stop making new ones...........

In the most objective sense, any idea of such a connection does even exist in any form at Square Enix they have shown multiple times that it won't have and real effect or impact on each worlds lore and storylines. As such never having any real impact they for all intents and purposes do not exist to them. Besides beyond cross promotion and tongue in cheek references to the past a writer is not going to want to be held back by numerous connections to past stories.

Not here to start a flame war, I just think theres better topics to discuss then a vague issue that SE will ever offically confirm yet never deny.

These kinds of threads are popping way too often

---

^Listen to this man, he gets it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmzRigh

A few years ago, a friend and I came up with a FF-unifying theory. Here's how it goes:

Final Fantasy is full of repeating themes, roles and events.

Advanced fallen civilizations:
Lunarians ~= Lufenians = Cetra = Zilart = Ancients = Allag, Belah'dia, Nym, etc. = Magi ~= Bevelle

Which sometimes separate themselves from the rest of the world:
Moon ~= Sky Fortress = Tu'lia = Floating Continent = Nym

Powerful conquering empires:
Baron = Palamecia = Gestahl = Shinra = Garlemald = Galbadia = Archadia = Bevelle


And other broad categories that I'm not quite awake enough to remember right now. But this repetition of arch concepts calls to mind the story of the first Final Fantasy, where the world was trapped in a 2000-year time loop. The same events are happening over and over again...but not exactly the same. It's only a closed loop if you view it in two dimensions; the cycle is constantly traveling along another axis, making the universe a time spiral. A coil, repeating but never intersecting. This puts FF1 at the end, chronologically, since the cycle is broken at the end. It also implies that, since the themes had decayed into basic archetypes by so much repetition, more uniqueness means it's closer to the point of origin, and more cleaving to archetypes means it's closer to the end, allowing for a rough timeline to be created. So 1, 3 and 9 would all be relatively close to the end. 2 and 7 would occur at similar points on the curve, but with many coils between them. And, for the following reasons, 5 and 6 would be very near each other:

Kefka (FF6) = Enuo (FF5)

A powerful wizard wielding the power of unmaking (Void), brought low by 12 heroes, and whose defeat severed ties between worlds. This description applies equally to Kefka and Enuo. This isn't to say they are one and the same; merely that their roles are nearly identical, placing them at the same point on the curve, with bare few turns between to change them. Additionally, this could mean that, whatever else Gogo is, he doesn't have to be a slider, just really old.

Of course, this looping construct could, theoretically, make hopping between "worlds" even easier -- the traveler isn't so much breaking a barrier between universes, but simply moving sideways through time. (And what exists outside the coil? Void! Ahaha, that just came to me.)

Another strong tie I like:

AVALANCHE (FFVII) = Warriors of Darkness (FFIII)

As the Ancients spoke of in FF3, there was once a time where the the world swung too far toward Light. In that time of need, the Warriors of Darkness were called upon to restore balance. Shinra threatened to destroy the world wielding the power of life itself; AVALANCHE arose to restore the natural cycle of the Lifestream. Seems a pretty direct comparison to me.

That's about all I can remember right now. I'd love to hear if anybody has thoughts on or further contributions to this.

---

All speculation, and, as source materials such as the Ultimania guides and interviews with SE's past and present FF development team members such as Hironobu Sakaguchi have proven beyond all doubt, each FF world is independent of the other - they each take place in their own seperate universe (or, in FFV's case, three universes!).

Accordingly, again as FFXIV's development team have officially stated in the past, FFXIV's world is not directly connected to any other FF world - it's not FFXI's Vana'diel, FFXII's Ivalice, FFXIII's world, FFVII's Planet or any other FF world in a different time period. Yes there is a vague thread linking each FF world via shared themes and elements, which is what the series has always been about, but the idea each FF game takes place in the one universe at different times periods is, well, utterly ridiculous. Yes it's fun to speculate, but these sorts of things tend to generate into flamewars when inevitably they are officially debunked by the development team by fans who refuse to accept the 'official' information, so really, as Nama said, having multiple threads on this subject really aren't needed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enkidoh

All speculation, and, as source materials such as the Ultimania guides and interviews with SE's past and present FF development team members such as Hironobu Sakaguchi have proven beyond all doubt, each FF world is independent of the other - they each take place in their own separate universe (or, in FFV's case, three universes!).

---

Except that FFVII and FFX share a universe; the Al Bhed named Shinra's descendents eventually leave Spira and use the technology he was developing for use on the Farplanes to create the Mako Reactors and harness the Lifestream. This is stated in Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega and Final Fantasy X-2 Ultimania.

The Depths of the True Moon in Final Fantasy IV: The After Years, which unlike the optional dungeon in Final Fantasy IV's re-releases cannot be considered non-canon, is also a veritable boss rush of enemies from Final Fantasy I to Final Fantasy VI summoned by the Creator.

To be clear, I don't agree with the above speculation, but the Final Fantasy Universes are connected to an extent.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RomildaRayne

Except that FFVII and FFX share a universe; the Al Bhed named Shinra's descendents eventually leave Spira and use the technology he was developing for use on the Farplanes to create the Mako Reactors and harness the Lifestream. This is stated in Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega and Final Fantasy X-2 Ultimania.

---

Kazushige Nojima said this in that Ultimania:

Quote:

---

After quitting the Gullwings, Shinra received enormous financial support from Rin, and began trying to use Vegnagun to siphon Mako Energy from the Farplane. But, he is unable to complete the system for utilizing this energy in his generation, and in the future, when traveling to distant planets becomes possible, the Shin-Ra Company is founded on another world, or something like that....... That would happen about 1000 years after this story, I think.

---

The words "or something like that" and "I think" suggest to me that these are just his musings, nothing set in stone. Its very likely these ideas were what produced the character of Shinra in FFX-2, but they aren't included in the game. If every musing from the developers were canon, Tidus would be a construction worker and Cloud would have slicked back black hair.

FFVII's Ultimania just asks a question:

Quote:

---

The results of this cannot be seen in FFX-2, but maybe one day his descendants will establish a "company that supplies the energy of the planet"?

---

Again, it flirts with the idea, but never confirms it and none of this was ever stated in either of the two games.

Quote:

---

To be clear, I don't agree with the above speculation, but the Final Fantasy Universes are connected to an extent.

---

They're all connected in the fact that in the real world they are all part of the same game series :p so naturally there will be reoccurring things that can't be explained in lore, but sometimes it doesn't need to be. Bosses from other Final Fantasy games show up in bonus dungeons because it's a video game, it isnt explained in the canon of the game's universes because they don't need a reason beyond that.

So IS the Ultimania the official sorce? Cause I've not herd it stated as being concreat fact either. It always looked to me like a compilation of interviews where (Some) on the fan questions were either answered or joked about. I read some of it and I never saw any thing but the clasic "We can neither conferm nor deny" cliches that devs give to questions they'd rather not answer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WellFooled

They're all connected in the fact that in the real world they are all part of the same game series :p so naturally there will be reoccurring things that can't be explained in lore, but sometimes it doesn't need to be. Bosses from other Final Fantasy games show up in bonus dungeons because it's a video game, it isnt explained in the canon of the game's universes because they don't need a reason beyond that.

---

I agree with what you've said until this point because the (True Moon's) Depths are not an optional dungeon; I specifically made the distinction between the bonus dungeons in re-releases of Final Fantasy and Final Fantasy IV for that reason. There is a purpose, in the lore, for those bosses to be there as they were summoned by the Creator, even if it is mostly fanservice. Gilgamesh actually calls out Bartz's name, making it almost certain that he is the same Gilgamesh of Final Fantasy V.

The way the Void in this game is set up is a mix of both the Interdimensional Rift of FF5 and the World of Darkenss of FF3. In 1.0 mobs that were literally called voidsent would come out of portals where the aether energies were imbalanced. In the later part of 1.0 Atomos would appear over certain Aetherytes at camps and drain them of their energies returning that back to the void. So it's akin to how crystals are used to summon primals into this world and then when defeated they go back into the aetherflow. However the void has the ability to drain that aetherflow into it's own world. And now we have CT with Cloud of Darkness verifying the void for the world of darkness exists. Also we don't know how big that world actually is. Shantotto was saying she ripped open a vortex with her magics and wound up in Eorzea it seems that anyone who posses knowledge of black magic can open a portal. THM's and BLM's in FFXIV via NPC's and lore history have been known to open up portals to the void. Hence why they aren't so keen on letting just everyone join up. And now with Gilgamesh and Enkidu (the real one not the chicken) both in our world and knowing how Gilgamesh was lost in the Void after being Banished there must have found a way to be able to freely access and enter and leave when he deems fit to do so. So the void theory is the only one that can make sense of being able to have interdimensional travel since the void was the beginning of all things and the crystals were born from the void. When the crystals were born they created their own worlds. This is one of those worlds.

The only real connections in FF tho that have a lot of lore and connection to it is the Ivalice theory.