Ranged Tank

Which only leaves being an archer I suppose. Viable in this game? I've only stuck to Summoner and Gladiator so far when it comes to duking it out long term. But my favorite two things to play are tanks--mage tanks and range tanks in particular. So I'm bored and need ideas to make the range tank viable, until the dark knight comes out to satisfy the tanky mage in me.
Any suggestions?

How would you even go about that? How could you possibly make one of the ranged classes a tank? Or is that not what you are asking? o3o

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

How would you even go about that? How could you possibly make one of the ranged classes a tank? Or is that not what you are asking? o3o

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I think he is not used to ffxiv roles.

Anyway...

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Originally Posted by Askio

Which only leaves being an archer I suppose. Viable in this game? I've only stuck to Summoner and Gladiator so far when it comes to duking it out long term. But my favorite two things to play are tanks--mage tanks and range tanks in particular. So I'm bored and need ideas to make the range tank viable, until the dark knight comes out to satisfy the tanky mage in me.
Any suggestions?

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You cant be a ranged tank. If you want to tank, you can just be Gladiator or Marauder. Simple like that.
Archers, monks, dragoons, etc can't be Tanks.

This thread is cute, but to just appease my curious side, I'm gonna try to play along. I'm assuming this guy would use Bard if he wants to make a range tank. So, let's take a look at the gear available at the end of the game. To optimize vitality, I'd suggest using ilvl 130 Augmented Ironworks gear, and Iolite trinkets stacked with Vitality first, and Determination second. The reason I suggest Iolite is because of the other aspect of tanking, agro generation. Since as a Bard, you have no additional enmity generating skills, you're out of luck if you can't dish out some serious damage. So you will have to balance Dexterity with Vitality on the Trinkets. So... what do we end up with? A Bard with about 7, 7.5k hp, lower damage than any other dps who went all out damage, no enmity generating skills, no real good mitigation cooldowns, and pitiful armor rating... need I say more? Leave the tanking to the heavy armor classes that mitigate physical and magical damage in spades.

I think trying to theorize how a ranged tank would work would be interesting, but it'd be difficult to make work out. Best I can think of would be some sort of barrier specialist or the like.

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Originally Posted by Mirron

I think trying to theorize how a ranged tank would work would be interesting, but it'd be difficult to make work out. Best I can think of would be some sort of barrier specialist or the like.

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That's right? How IS it going to work? Let's break down the keyword here, Range and Tank. Range means, well, range and not melee. Tank mean you soak up damage for other people. So how is it going to work? Not all enemy you encounter are range enemy, which mean they will have to close in to you anyway, rendering the range part pointless. Also kiting is not tanking by any means.

Mage Tank I can understand. Range tank, not so much.

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Originally Posted by Askio

Which only leaves being an archer I suppose. Viable in this game? I've only stuck to Summoner and Gladiator so far when it comes to duking it out long term. But my favorite two things to play are tanks--mage tanks and range tanks in particular. So I'm bored and need ideas to make the range tank viable, until the dark knight comes out to satisfy the tanky mage in me.
Any suggestions?

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Well, let's define a "ranged" tank, first.
I assume you mean a tank who focuses on kiting, yes?
Keeping their distance and dodging hits while keeping aggro and moving it around the arena.
There's a couple of reasons why that would be very difficult to make work:
Even when running, you still get hit with unavoidable damage, which, for any non-GLA/PLD/MRD/WAR, can easily slaughter you. Even if you avoid all the AOEs, that large amount of damage can still hurt you a whole lot.
The melee DPS are the biggest reason this probably won't happen. Even if you designed a tank class that kites in this game, the melee would be very unhappy with you. Most melee DPS have some form of a directional requirement that makes them want to attack from the rear or the flank, which would be made near impossible with a tank that's moving everything around all the time.

A mage tank is definitely more viable, but in of itself wouldn't really make it a ranged tank. There's always the puppet tank, where it uses a summon of some sort to keep aggro and take damage, but with the current AI of companions in this game and the large delays in between keys and your pet casting their skill, I wouldn't really see it happening. I mean, I know we have summoner and Titan Egi, yes, but Titan Egi is a very poor tank and loses aggro very fast, with no way of taking aggro back if it dies. It also has a pretty big lack of enmity generation in general and isn't designed to really tank very well. A proper puppet tank would have to be an entirely different class, with a much bigger emphasis on their pet taking damage and generating hate, and likely a rework of the way you command your pets to use skills.

Yes, for those that wondered, I am familiar with the class system. This is purely theoretical. I like it, and the cross class skills they've made available. I admit, I'm still just pushing into end game on one character on my legacy account. But I thought it'd be interesting to pose the question.
I've considered the mage tanks in this game, and actually off tanked with Mini Titty on the side. But that isn't the mage tanking, so much as it is the pet. God forbid Titan doesn't aggro, and you get eaten alive.
No, the way I see it, since damage can easily aggro enemies and there are some cross class skills to draw attention, it is possible. Practical is another matter. Until you get a job, you have healing, protect, stoneskin for spells, and access to cross class skills to increase defense, parry, evasion, and healing with the marauder's bloodbath ability for physical damage.

I've played ranged tanks in other MMO's and there are some perks. I'll list them out. I'm also assuming I wouldn't go bard for this case. That limits too many cross class skills. It wouldn't be the first time I've gone end game without an "advanced class" and made it work.

Pros
Draw enemies in locally to you from a distance. Sometimes, someone will go rush in as a DPS and suddenly it's that much harder to aggro because I have to chase the damn things down. With range, you can aggro from afar, meaning less chasing and more meatshielding. This is probably my biggest pet peeve right now as a tank. Let me aggro first dammit, and stop rushing in.
Ranged dps over time. Usually the best way to go, so you can save MP or whatever system a game has for healing and abilities. It just means simpler management of the field.
Annoying people in pvp. Nothing amuses me more than to hit someone from afar, or to be a tank healer and not be squished.

Con
Right now, no access to heavy armor. This is probably the saddest thing for me for mages :( *tear. Imagine a Thuamaturge in heavy iron armor. *forlorn sigh* And the greatest limitation.
Jobs limit cross class skills.
So,I think ^^TheodoreMcIntyre^^ probably has the best point on why it wouldn't happen, setting aside current equipment limitations pointed out by ^^Ceodore^^(curiosity is good). My counter to Theodore would be that a good tank could compensate for this, regardless if it's melee or ranged. In fact, a ranged tank could lead enemies into better position by running away and exposing the flank. A good tanker is good, a bad one is bad. How far they hit enemies is irrelevant. Though since it was mentioned, there are few, true ranged enemies, now that I think on it. Even magic wielding enemies seem to charge at your face as if to say "kill me, please." Odd.

Though, this may all be moot depending on what they do with Dark Knight. I was kind of hoping machinist would fulfill ranged tank hopes. Looking like the Eng from guild wars 2, and that's not all bad.

Screw it, I'm going to hop on the most populated server I can find and try it out. See how much I take. Keep the ideas coming if you'd like, or rage against it and call me a fool. I will always dream.

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Originally Posted by Askio

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Well, as it stands, all enemies already have their flanks exposed in some form or another without having to kite. Now, if you did have a kiting tank, another problem arises, again, with melee DPS. See, you have to be in a pretty close range to use any melee attack in the game, aside from jumps and a few other select skills, and the way the game processes melee attacks is a little weird, so if you try and run and use a melee attack on an enemy but they run out of range before the animation finishes, it will cancel a skill.

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Originally Posted by Askio

Though, this may all be moot depending on what they do with Dark Knight. I was kind of hoping machinist would fulfill ranged tank hopes. Looking like the Eng from guild wars 2, and that's not all bad.

Screw it, I'm going to hop on the most populated server I can find and try it out. See how much I take. Keep the ideas coming if you'd like, or rage against it and call me a fool. I will always dream.

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I don't think anybody's particularly mad at you for it.
I mean, I know it's definitely possible.
To say it isn't would be silly.
It would just require alot of reworking of some of the fundamental ways the game processes combat.

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Originally Posted by Askio

Which only leaves being an archer I suppose. Viable in this game? I've only stuck to Summoner and Gladiator so far when it comes to duking it out long term. But my favorite two things to play are tanks--mage tanks and range tanks in particular. So I'm bored and need ideas to make the range tank viable, until the dark knight comes out to satisfy the tanky mage in me.
Any suggestions?

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To my knowledge the only MMOs that have ranged tanks are SWTOR and Planetside, but the ones in Planetside are actual tanks.

To put it simply : you can't have a ranged tank.

Mage tank ? sure. Easy enough with simply the cleric as an example. Heavy armor, mace, magic. Done.

But ranged tank ? How do you tank at range distance ? All mobs are closing up the distance except a handful of them (mostly the kedtraps and monkeys). So a ranged tank is a false concept. It'll be a melee tank with ranged weapon, but this ranged weapon will have no use. You can attack mobs from afar already if you lose them (provoke, tomahawk, shield lob)

The only way you can have a ranged tank is a kiting tank, and it's just THAT bad of an idea.

A ranged tank?

Why would you bring a gun to a sword fight? :P

Since most enemies in this game are attacking from close range, even a ranged tank would spend most of his time in melee range. The closest thing for the concept of a ranged tank is probably a gunblade wielder, that way you would use your sword most of the time but would have an excuse for having better options for pulling and aggroing from distance.

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Originally Posted by Vorpal_Spork

To my knowledge the only MMOs that have ranged tanks are SWTOR and Planetside, but the ones in Planetside are actual tanks.

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Even the SWTOR tanks weren't truly ranged. Sure, they had ranged attacks for pulling, and a ranged pull and leap, but their main combo was built around Stock-strike/Rocketpunch and Ion Blast/Flame Sweep, both of which were close range, under 4m.

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Originally Posted by TheodoreMcIntyre

I mean, I know we have summoner and Titan Egi, yes, but Titan Egi is a very poor tank and loses aggro very fast, with no way of taking aggro back if it dies. It also has a pretty big lack of enmity generation in general and isn't designed to really tank very well. A proper puppet tank would have to be an entirely different class, with a much bigger emphasis on their pet taking damage and generating hate, and likely a rework of the way you command your pets to use skills.

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can confirm, titan is sadly not that great
went into coperbell normal as smn and tried to main tank with it
he just doesnt have enough moves and the enmity he was putting out was roughly comparable to halone-less gladiator (ie, terrible and just enough to scrape by depending upon level of content)

I know it was stated previously but if you want a range Tank your only option is being a summoner with Titan. And really the only effective way to do that is summoner burn dungeons. It's not the norm, but it is pretty fun!

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Originally Posted by mdha02

I know it was stated previously but if you want a range Tank your only option is being a summoner with Titan. And really the only effective way to do that is summoner burn dungeons. It's not the norm, but it is pretty fun!

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as in 3 smn 1 sch?

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Originally Posted by Grayve

Even the SWTOR tanks weren't truly ranged. Sure, they had ranged attacks for pulling, and a ranged pull and leap, but their main combo was built around Stock-strike/Rocketpunch and Ion Blast/Flame Sweep, both of which were close range, under 4m.

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They had a lot more ranged attacks than they did melee attacks though. Or at least bounty hunter did. My only trooper was a healer.

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Originally Posted by Vorpal_Spork

They had a lot more ranged attacks than they did melee attacks though. Or at least bounty hunter did. My only trooper was a healer.

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As someone that played a vanguard, most trooper abilities are ranged. But many of the abilities relied on being close, like gaining Ion Pulse and Shoulder Cannons.
Hmmm, I suppose I'm wanting to set aside the idea of tanking in dungeons to just solo tanking.

I actually got my wish. A galdiator in the first Duty wasn't pulling, so I did it so our healer wouldn't get eaten alive. Our "tank" got annoyed I was doing their job, and said "I want to watch you die," and the 3 others in my party proceeded to stop as I was pulling 6 enemies. I then made them eat those words by killing all the enemies with nary a scratch.

Setting aside my smug satisfaction of rubbing it into the faces of jerks that just abandon their teammates, kiting isn't what I had in mind. When I tank in other games, it's from a range. I have an elementalist mage tank in GW2 that works fantastic, but I use a scepter, not the daggers.
My focus on tanking as an archer would be purely from a survival standpoint. Since there's no melee penalty for ranged classes, I guess my preference of being able to hit any enemy from anywhere and selectively pick them off or draw them in just lends itself more to my style. I don't mind if they get close, just that I can dictate when. It really just comes down to the enemies in each different game though.

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Originally Posted by aisustrong

as in 3 smn 1 sch?

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We've been doing 4 summoners. The group I do this with are still on pre-30 dungeons so we might have to switch it up later. We normally have 2 people summon tank pets and the other two summon dps carby/garuda. So far we've not had any wipes or problems in the dungeons. Like I said, it's a lot of fun to at least try. Simply because it's a whole new way of playing the dungeons.

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Originally Posted by mdha02

We've been doing 4 summoners. The group I do this with are still on pre-30 dungeons so we might have to switch it up later. We normally have 2 people summon tank pets and the other two summon dps carby/garuda. So far we've not had any wipes or problems in the dungeons. Like I said, it's a lot of fun to at least try. Simply because it's a whole new way of playing the dungeons.

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youll definitely need a real healer for vigil and garuda
might be able to get away with it in brayflox, but the last boss might give you trouble

haukke: probably, last boss might be a bit tough
qarn: no way
cutters: maybe
dd: maybe
aurum: no

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Originally Posted by aisustrong

youll definitely need a real healer for vigil and garuda
might be able to get away with it in brayflox, but the last boss might give you trouble

haukke: probably, last boss might be a bit tough
qarn: no way
cutters: maybe
dd: maybe
aurum: no

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haukke : doable although you'll have 3 people healing for adds most probably
qarn : doable (surprisingly) but pretty tough. You'll need mind accessories on every SMN focusing on healing to survive the few hard hitting moves from the last boss. On second boss, you can kill it without breaking it's soul stone but I don't know if it triggers the random target or not.
cutters : 2nd boss is the hardest. You can kite the last boss to death
DD : last boss is the only hard part, not a problem with titan though

last boss of dd is like the easiest part of the whole dungeon

Hehe the best incarnation of a ranged tank I have seen yet was the engineer from Wildstar. It was a true ranged tank since every ability it had in its arsenal could hit to 20m or longer. It also had heavy armor and regenerating shields to help mitigate attack damage. Its large aoe patterns also made it a threat generating machine, and one of the most reliable tanks in the game!

The drawback to it was that the engineer had the worst mobility of any class in the game. That was how they balanced the ranged aggro generation. To be fair Wildstar and FFXIV have WILDLY different combat systems, so many aspects of the ranged tank do not cross over well. But a heavy armor guy with a massive shotgun style weapon is sweet indeed.