Help with speed runs as a WHM

So lately I have been really trying to improve my ability to speed run as a WHM and I think learning from you Tanks is my next step. As a usual rule big pulls start on my end with a Divine Seal, Cure II, swiftcast Med II and then a Regen...

Basically what I am wondering is what to look for with your buffs and strategy tanks use to improve my healing efficieny as well as ability to DPS (dat Holy spam) during big pulls. What level of buffs do I need to be on my heals pronto or when can I hold off a bit and assist with mob burning. At what point should I expect Tanks to pop their cooldowns or when should I expect to just heal through the damage?

So... Tanks, please help me help you. Teach me if you would. =)

Biggest CDs are used at the start of the pull, usually they last long enough for everything to be dead. If the mobs can't be stunned then you have to pay a lot more attention to the tank's health, but if they can be stun locked then you can concentrate more on Holy spamming. Most tanks capable of speedrunning have a set rotation of big CDs to cycle through for each pull, but on the off chance they have nothing it's still safe to throw out 1 Holy or 2 (especially if the mobs can be stunned) but things may get dicey after that. Basically, Holy spam at the start with Regen + Med 2 ticks = safe in most situations.

Mega pulls (e.g. first two rooms of Snowcloak, the entire first area of Halatali HM, everything up until the first boss in Copperbell HM, etc) I tend to DS -> Regen as tank is positioning mobs after I see CoS -> Cure II -> Cleric Stance -> Swiftcast Holy -> PoM -> Holy -> Stoneskin tank -> Holy -> Holy -> Holy -> Cleric Stance off and cure spam. Shroud as needed in case a mob comes off the tank.

Also helps if you keep an eye on what CDs the tanks are using. Always bugs me when my healer stands around doing nothing while HG is slowly ticking down.

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Originally Posted by Numenor1379

As a usual rule big pulls start on my end with a Divine Seal, Cure II, swiftcast Med II and then a Regen...

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This opener is a bad idea. M2 is almost never needed in pulls, and it makes it harder to transition into DPS if you don't have Swiftcast. The opener by Deculture is similar to what I do:

DS > C2 > (adjust if he needs another C2) > Regen > Cleric Stance > Swiftcast > Holy > PoM late > Holy > Holy > Holy > Holy > play it by ear. Keep your Benediction ready, which generally isn't needed - however, there are times where you can just use Benediction to squeeze in more Holy spam to finish the enemies off.

For bosses, Regen pre-pull (there's nothing wrong with it if there are no other enemies) > CS and just DPS until the tank's below 50% HP, DS C2 > Regen > back to DPS.

You have to adjust if DPS is terrible or if the tank is badly geared/can't do big pulls.

Don't be afraid to use Benediction. If your tank is running low on HP and you are worried you won't be able to save them, then pop that Benediction to get the up to 100% instantly. It's a good tool to use when you are speed running and things get out of hand. Also Holy can help reduce damage because of the stun.

Based on all of this extra exposure to the DF for the zodiac quest, I can say with confidence that more WHM's need to be using Holy and Benediction.

As a Warrior, I can generate a ton of HPs with Berserk/Bloodbathed Overpowers during the stun duration of Holy (with ToB and 2nd Wind on backup).

Once the massive pull is all in position, floor AoEs are down, and I turn on the blender, the sound of Holy is a like a symphony.

Oh. And Eye for an Eye is also a useful tool in speed runs. It may not seem that great but it is a powerful tool and should be underestimated (though it shouldn't be over estimated either...)

The 10% damage reduction is very helpful when the tank is getting pummeled.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

Oh. And Eye for an Eye is also a useful tool in speed runs. It may not seem that great but it is a powerful tool and should be underestimated (though it shouldn't be over estimated either...)

The 10% damage reduction is very helpful when the tank is getting pummeled.

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I think a lot of people need to also realize that with Eye for and Eye, it has a high chance of applying itself to the entire mob pull, meaning the more mobs pulled, the stronger it is because of the more targets it effects.

As for what I see as both a tank and a healer, we (tanks) work for you (healers), and proper CD usages is vital. We pop longer CDs first, to try to give them enough time to refresh for the next pull as well as deal with the massive number of mobs we just pulled. This generally gives DPS 20-30 seconds of time to bring down one or two mobs so that our weaker CDs on shorter timers can handle the lower damage with relative ease. Try to do the same thing as a healer. Cast time reduction on Presence of Mind shouldn't be underestimated, and remember Divine Seal. Also, big heals like Cure 2 should be used at the beginning to benefit more from these CDs, and deal with the heavy incoming damage. After a few mobs die, pop Shroud of Saints to prepare for the next pull (if there is another to go) or the boss coming up, and be sure to keep up Regen and Medica 2, and portion out your healing near the end to preserve MP to keep the dungeon going smoothly. Holy generally gets used right after your CDs end, to try to stun mobs and lengthen the time for DPS to bring them down and as a form of mitigation. When your holy stops stunning, stop using holy and just coast to the end, believe me, you've done plenty of damage for a healer if you use Cleric Stance.

I tank and heal, so this is what i do in experience:

Eye for an Eye just as tank starts running -> Sprint until holding spot -> Divine Seal -> Regen -> ( Medica 2 if there's a melee in party ) -> Cleric -> Swiftcast -> Holy -> Blizz 2 -> Holy -> Blizz 2 -> Holy -> Holy. In between Holy make sure you have a finger on Benediction if needed.

For Blizzard 2, I use it as a filler because it maximises the stun lock AND Bind can prevent a few attacks on tank if the tank keeps circling around the mobs. Most ppl don't realize Bind also prevents mobs from turning and usually right after the stun finishes, mobs will use their queued up auto-attacks. Using a Bind usually stops that, even if it gets removed right away.

For Medica II, I will only use it if there is a melee in the party or its those jumping goblins in Brayflox, since I'm lazy to switch stances for the 10s i'm doing the Holy spam.

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Originally Posted by kurogane_shiroikaze

I tank and heal, so this is what i do in experience:

Eye for an Eye just as tank starts running -> Sprint until holding spot -> Divine Seal -> Regen -> ( Medica 2 if there's a melee in party ) -> Cleric -> Swiftcast -> Holy -> Blizz 2 -> Holy -> Blizz 2 -> Holy -> Holy. In between Holy make sure you have a finger on Benediction if needed.

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I agree with the part about the holy/blizzard 2, but a quick question about how soon you switch to Cleric Stance. Wouldn't you still have a few seconds left on Divine Seal? Wouldn't instantly switching to DPSing clip off a bit of Divine Seal and lessen the use you get out of it? I'm sure you could throw in a few Cure 2s before it ended and then pop into your Holy/Blizzy combo. I also am wondering why not throw out Cure 2s, because during the pull, won't the tank take a decent amount of damage? I probably don't have enough experience to know for sure how this would work, but I'd imagine my cycle would look something like this:

Eye for an Eye before tank begins pull => Sprint to where the tank stops => Divine Seal + Medica 2 (since Medica 2 does a little burst healing, and the HOT lasts longer than Regen, meaning they should fall off about the same time) => Cure2 (Because if the tank is getting pummeled, going two GCD to put the Regen AND the Medica 2 on him back to back will mean a lack of burst healing) => Regen => Cure 2 (By this time, Divine Seal will probably be dropping soon) => Cleric Stance + Switftcast + Holy => Blizzard 2 => Holy => Blizzard 2 => Holy => Holy => Drop Cleric Stance + Medica 2 => Cure 2 => Regen => Cure 2/1 spam depending on the strength I need to heal for still. When 2 mobs are left, just keep Regen up and spot heal, throw up Shroud of Saints, and prepare for the next pull. 1 Mob up at 20% hp, Stoneskin tank, should finish mob off before any damage gets applied to stoneskin, and now you're ready for the next pull.

Most of the time you don't need any Cure 2 at all at begining (maybe at the end potentially) because by the time the tank lost HP (let's say he's around 50% HP) you have Regen ticking while mobs are stunned by Holy, meaning Regen is getting on its own the tank HP full life for the few seconds of stuns.

For the DS lost seconds, you can drop cleric stance and refresh your regen before DS ends up and then go back to cleric stance. Regen on DS is enough most of the time, so yeah in the efficient view you loose few seconds of the DS CD, but if you don't need more heals, don't cast them. On the other hand if you don't use DS you will need more than the Regen, meaning you need more heals and loose time for dps.

And even if holy doesn't stun anymore (stun resistance), more damages on mobs = less damages on tank, don't be afraid to finish the pack fight by spamming holy and letting your tank dropping to 20% HP if the last mobs are about to die !

Know that not all tanks that pull big are really capable of the pulls they are making. If you find that your tank would be dead in 3 seconds were you not casting a constant stream of heals, the tank is probably under geared.

Throw a regen on the tank, hit med II, pop divine seal if you really need to (I usually do not) and then go to town with holy spam... Keep watch on the tanks health and slip out of cleric stance at 50% so you can resume heals, rinse repeat. Throw a SS if you need to during battle, keep your regen and med II up.

In almost any pull that I know the tank's cooldowns will cover their asses on for a moment, I typically do...
Divine Seal -> Regen -> Eye for an Eye during the cooldown -> Cure II -> Stoneskin -> Cleric Stance on, Holy -> Stoneskin the tank -> Holy -> Holy -> Judgement call, swiftcast Stoneskin or Holy depending on the tank's HP and leftover mobs -> Cleric Stance off during the cooldown, restore HP
...or a very similar alternative depending on how many hard hitting mobs (ice sprites) need to be healed through. A full Stoneskin can be cast during the first stun provided by Holy, and you'll already be about 33% done with your next Holy cast by the time the stun comes off. This is a figure I LOVE to use when helping with Holy.

On the big pulls, e.g. snowcloak first area up till dogs, first packs in qarn till the door, pack in qarn around the pillar, or last room prior to kraken, I personally prefer if the healer does as little as possible to be fair. As it allows me to run through without worrying about the healer snagging off one or two mobs whilst I'm running. I'll position, drop some HP and hallowed ground as opener. Followed by sentinel + convalescence. At this point the healer can slowly get into healing. And with decent DPS aimed at making this a speedrun (e.g. 2x BLM) most trash is close to dead by then already anyway.

Most help of the healer in speedruns comes in form of DPS, not so much healing anyway.

Thanks for the outstanding info all. Guess I do need to get more comfortable with popping Holy during these. I've been using E4E a lot more lately and have certainly noticed the effect.

One thing I've been noticing though lately, is the lack of the Tank even using a cooldown. I'm sitting there on the first pull of Snowcloak having to spam Cure II to keep the guy at barely 50% and not a single Rampart/Sentinel/Convalescence/Foresight/ect... being used. Other than just letting the group wipe and berating them, do you all have suggestions for dealing with Tanks that seem to not know what their abilities do yet are prancing around at i110+?

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Originally Posted by Numenor1379

Thanks for the outstanding info all. Guess I do need to get more comfortable with popping Holy during these. I've been using E4E a lot more lately and have certainly noticed the effect.

One thing I've been noticing though lately, is the lack of the Tank even using a cooldown. I'm sitting there on the first pull of Snowcloak having to spam Cure II to keep the guy at barely 50% and not a single Rampart/Sentinel/Convalescence/Foresight/ect... being used. Other than just letting the group wipe and berating them, do you all have suggestions for dealing with Tanks that seem to not know what their abilities do yet are prancing around at i110+?

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I'm a tank, and I even say let them wipe and then inform them they are too squishy without some cooldown usage... I sympathize with healers, the job isn't easy, and y'all deserver better. Don't be afraid of some tough love. Your motto should be as thus.

"They ignored my explanations, I ignored their screams" Or better yet...

These players are afraid of me. I have seen their true faces. The dungeons are extended gutters and the gutters are full of blood and when the drains finally scab over, all the vermin will drown. The accumulated filth of all their sloth and stupidity will foam up about their waists and all the tanks and damage dealers will look up and shout "Save us!"... and I'll whisper "no."

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Originally Posted by Numenor1379

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Just let those tanks die, especially if you're a WHM (SCH has a lot more leeway with Lustrate + fairy). If you have to spam Cure II because a tank refuses to use cool downs you are either going to A) rip hate, or B) run dry of MP... both of which will end badly for the party.

To reference a well known video, you have complete control over life and death. If people are being stupid, as the party's god, feel free to select them for extinction. Always remember the healer's motto, "there's a time to take damage, there's a time to deal it. There's a time to ignore all else and do your best to heal it. Then there's a time to laugh as they all burn."

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Originally Posted by Velox

"there's a time to take damage, there's a time to deal it. There's a time to ignore all else and do your best to heal it. Then there's a time to laugh as they all burn."

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OMG That's in my signature! It's good advice!

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

Don't be afraid to use Benediction.

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This. I love this. I like to DS+Regen>E4E the tank as he/she positions, then HOLY SPAMZ!!!! till the tank has about 20% HP, then pop that BENE! It's epic fun and requires a change of pants sometimes.

As a tank and a heals. Look for convalescence, helps dem cures.
Also, on WAR's look for berserk. The Pacification that comes at the end of it and it can be esuna'd, leeches'd(? lol) I have a macro to let heals know that pacification is coming. Having it removed is super quick and allows for me to continue dishing out the hurt to make things die faster.

Just my 2g.