Sword Oath is obviously a huge DPS boost over Shield Oath, and given how this content is tuned more for i110 than i130 + i135 weapons (as groups are approaching rapidly), I think it's safe to say going Sword Oath during low damage sections is pretty viable (inb4 PLD is a tank, not DPS), especially because unlike WAR, PLD retains all forms of mitigation while in this stance. However, my group has yet to experiment much with it, both in identifying the best times to do so and in practicing it.
Given that it's easily 100-150 more DPS during the time you're in Sword Oath (not counting going in and out), I think it's logical that if your WHM can handle it, it's more damage to Sword than it is to throw in WHM DPS (especially because of WHM ACC) by utilizing the excess mitigation as healer downtime.
Likely places for Sword that I know of:
T10, after Critical Rip until the next one or adds
T11, other than when it's a burn on the final add, I'm not sure
T12, I've seen the entire P1 done in Sword Oath so it's possible almost all of it can be done
T13, final phase after Megaflare is a very low damage section, probably worthwhile to switch until Earthshakers
Thoughts? Experiences with this? I've always had an interest in this but I've never seen it discussed here.
Sword Oath in T10-13 while tanking
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12-21-2014, 05:36 AMSleighSword Oath in T10-13 while tanking
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12-21-2014, 06:44 AMDonjo
Let's see... being out of Shield Oath is in increase of 20% to incoming damage and being in Sword Oath is(from what little testing I've done on the subject) an increase of about 30% to damage dealt over Shield Oath. This is not 100-150 DPS unless you're already pulling 200 DPS while in Shield Oath. If we consider that the Warrior is probably doing more, being in that situation would mean that the Tanks are probably providing enough DPS already anyway.
Warriors have Unchained to remove their Defiance penalty for 20 seconds. Paladins have Rampart to reduce their damage taken by 20% for 20 seconds. Rampart + Sword Oath does the same thing as Defiance + Unchained, so try experimenting with that combo as you're trying to find safe places to actually let go of the mitigation.
However, another way to increase the overall DPS of tanks is to let the Paladin off-tank whenever appropriate. Sword Oath + Storms Eye ekes out slightly more damage than a Warrior out of Defiance in most situations, so that's another way to maximize damage.
But, here's the classic arguments: Even if you manage to find places to stance dance, it usually won't be for very long. Thus, the amount of DPS you gain has to be balanced against the GCDs you sacrifice to enter and exit stances. Overall, the amount of DPS you add won't be very much and you might even lose some if you screw up. It is more probably more efficient to add a bit of Strength to the Paladin and just keep tanking as usual if you're already experiencing Healer downtime you don't wish to spend DPSing. Alternately, you can definitely do the healer DPS thing by melding either Crafted i90 or Crafted i110 with Accuracy, and all the numbers I've found show that a Healer can provide a lot more DPS by abusing crafted gear than a Tank can while sacrificing less of their performance as a Healer.
Just keep in mind that the use of Crafted Accessories to make Tanks and Healers go beyond their explicitly stated roles does not indicate that the content is tuned for the lower item levels you just cleared it with. The content is tuned for 4 DPS, 2 VIT Tanks, and 2 Healers who like to heal more than DPS. Clever players just got around that and employed measured risks to make the content possible to clear with high skill and low gear ^.^ -
12-21-2014, 06:54 AMEye_Gore
Am I understanding Sword Oath all wrong? Its says its an increase in auto-attack by 50. So even with a iLvl 135 Dreadwyrm which has 58, wouldn't total DPS only be 108 on an auto-attack? I do get an auto-attack off between combos but is it really even dealing enough DPS to matter?
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12-21-2014, 07:11 AMSpookyGhost
Sword Oath + Rampart = Shield Oath + DPS. Just something to consider.
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12-21-2014, 07:53 AMSirTaint
T10 - I only Sword oath during while burning the second set of adds and after mine are dead.
T11 - I sword oath up until adds except for when handling Head, so 4 CDs in Shield oath. I sword oath the egg and then shield oath the rest of the fight.
T12 - I sword oath whenever I'm OT which is around 90 seconds before adds phase and half the final phase.
T13 - still learning and always in shield oath atm
I run with Topaz accessories (cheap) for T10-12 30/30 str.
Sword oath is around a 110 DPS increase for me. 201 was my parse on T10 this week and I run over 310 when in sword oath. (Nexus numbers i107) -
12-21-2014, 07:54 AMSirTaintQuote:
Originally Posted by Eye_Gore
You also lose the DPS penalty from Shield oath. -
12-21-2014, 11:58 AMJudge_XeroThat DPS Value on the weapon just give you a basis of what % of 100 Potency you will be doing given the Weapon Delay. That's no the actual DPS of the weapon AA Damage. Also, Sword Oath increases your AA damage by 50 Potency, as well as it doesn't carry the damage penalty that Shield Oath has. But to counter that, you also don't get the Enmity buff that Shield Oath gives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eye_Gore
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As long as you are just running OT it's fine. But doing MT in Sword Oath would be fun to hold enmity off your DPS unless you are wearing melded i90 and/or STR accessories.
T10 - Could definitely see it used for MT outside of Crit Rip, although Crackle Hiss hits pretty hard too. I could see it used on the adds that the group burns down second, as the DPS hit them pretty hard off the line to not have that Stance Enmity Buff. Just have a bard bait those tail swipes to reduce the healing, since double Prey's will be going off then too that the healers have to deal with.
T11 - Could see it working well on the first phase, since there's not a lot of huge damage going out.
The tank on the Sphere could do it if you have enough people soaking the Cannons. I don't see it working on the Cube without a mage ripping hate off it because it's already taking reduced Physical (Stance Enmity buffs helps). If not a Mage DPS, then for sure a healer would tear it off the tank.
Kind of a catch-22 since it's usually the War on the Sphere since SP helps with Cannons. So PLD on the Cube in Sword Oath....
T12 - In my group the SCH is doing over 300 DPS for the phases where that DPS push really matters (1-2). I think if the tank was trying to push damage outside of the tanking stance it would cause the SCH to actually have to heal a bit. So while it would be a DPS increase for the tank, it would be a loss for the SCH and probably equal out to the same thing.
Tank swapping when not eating damage is always welcomed though. -
12-21-2014, 09:55 PMEllatrix
Tank damage from boss is not very high in T10/12, so you can use Sword Oath for the majority of the fight pretty easily outside of adds.
T11 has higher tank damage so stance dancing is needed to still be safe.
T13 MT is shield oath.
This is not recommended for progression; this is for farm when your gear can support going Ruby and still have ~9k HP. You're still a tank first and putting the party at risk is never worth it. -
12-22-2014, 01:11 AMSirTaint
I run t10-13 with 8k HP. My max HP is 9200. We have gotten 2 fending drops in the 6-7 weeks coil has been out. (Wrist x2 qq)
I'm sure once the RNGgods put out there will be many more sword oath opportunities. At least it's my turn for sand this carboncoat this week! -
12-22-2014, 05:01 AMEllatrix
That's fine but you aren't trying to tank Critical Rip etc. in Sword Oath which is why the higher HP is good. 8k to use more STR but play it safe with Shield Oath is working with what you have.
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12-22-2014, 05:04 AMReynhartActually, Sword doesn't "increase" you auto-attack potency by 50.Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge_Xero
It gives you a second hit at 50 potency.
The difference is that if one hit don't crit, the other still can. I suppose if one miss the other can still connect, but since I have enough accuracy for each content I've been into, I can't be sure of that. -
12-22-2014, 06:16 AMJudge_XeroWell if you want to get that technical lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Yes it's a second 50 Potency hit that is effected by its own crit/acc. -
12-22-2014, 07:16 AMDa_Hero
as the ot warrior I do not approve of the mt going to sword oath at all- this means I can no longer throw in any butcher blocks and after a tank swap even critting eye I would probably take hate back- so if they did drop shield oath- I would lose dps- which is considerably more than the pld in my static
(still progging 12 and 13 so I cannot speak for those yet) -
12-22-2014, 07:23 AMEllatrixSomething something you fail to understand improving total raid dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Da_Hero
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12-23-2014, 01:18 AMSirTaintQuote:
Originally Posted by Da_Hero
I never understood WAR's obsession with BB when OTing. Its 10 potency over the other 2 combos.
Your PLD is picking up ~100 dps in exchange for the WAR losing 5? -
12-23-2014, 08:22 AMSleighSlight nitpick: it's 40 total potency lost every 2 rotations if you do SE > SP over SE > BB (Maim 190, SP 250. SS 200, BB 280).Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
That said it's 100% true, BB is truly inefficient as OT unless you're doing such outdated content that healers just don't have to heal. That 10~ DPS you lose converts into a much easier healing situation, or better yet, lets your PLD Sword Oath and/or lets your SCH heal even less than normal. -
12-23-2014, 08:54 AMSirTaintDerp I thought they were both 270 ><Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleigh
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12-23-2014, 03:57 PMReynhartUnless you stay in Defiance even when you OT, I don't see how you can take hate back with one BB, especially since you'll keep rotating between two combos while the PLD will still only do his full enmity one, with increased damage thanks to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Da_Hero
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12-24-2014, 12:29 AMSirTaintQuote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
2000 BB crits pull a ton of hate even with defiance off. I have a DPS happy OT WAR in my raid and I still have to remind him to lay off the BB for the first 30 seconds or so. Same is true after a tank swap. -
12-24-2014, 01:09 AMEhayte2,000 Butcher's Block? Mmmm.... pics or it didn't happen. With 530 str (I know its not the best, but its still a lot more than a VIT war) my highest Inner Beast crit has been 1,460. So believing that even a 600 str war could use an attack that has 20 less potency and crit for 33% more than me is kind of hard for me to believe. Not saying it didn't happen, just that that seems very very unlikely.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
And 30 seconds of laying off DPS? Jesus... Do you not have Savage > Spirits > Rage > CoS queue'd up for a tank swap? -
12-24-2014, 02:32 AMSirTaintQuote:
Originally Posted by Ehayte
I can't post parses here but 2000 might not even be the max. I130-135 weapon, sTr build, trick attack, zerk, maim, SP and a crit.
Even in t13 our OT using 4 ruby and a slaying accessory vs myself is all VIT. A couple BB Crits can be a pain in the ass at the start. -
12-24-2014, 02:55 AMReynhartI'm sorry, but if you Berserk+Internal Release+Butcher's Block just after a tank swap, you clearly want to steal enmity just for the sake of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
The MT also benefits from SP and Trick Attack. And HE should save burst DPS to secure the tank swap. -
12-24-2014, 03:04 AMEhayteYeah I guess I didn't account for weapon damage, I'm use Diamond Axe currently... but still...that seems a little outrageous. Especially since 'zerk and IR should be CD from MTing. And Storm's Eye debuffs slashing resistance. And my high IB is 1,460 with 'zerk, maim, SE up.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
Anywho, sorry to derail. I mainly play WAR but the only constructive thing I can add is that I mainly only drop stance if I have an emergency cool-down on stand-by, or if I have a combo on cool-downs that I can use to replace Defiance. For instance, in T12 I am experimenting with starting a tank swap with Unchained > Berserk. As soon as I come off of Unchained, I usually have 2 GCDs to hit an IB, then I will drop defiance and use Conval + ToB to dps more. It does put a lot on your healers, though. -
12-25-2014, 07:30 PMGildartsmy gear isnt that good however i did 2070/2063ib, and 1810/1772 SP "can show parser pic for those two since i still got it"Quote:
Originally Posted by Ehayte
butchers can do high dmg but i rarely use it, so really dont have any good numbers for it sadly -
12-26-2014, 02:30 AMAbbul_StonecleaverWas that with echo?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gildarts
My high without echo with IB is under 1.6k with HA axe. I'll be using the Diamond Axe in T10 this week though. And l'll probably switch to 30 Str from 30 Vit -
12-26-2014, 03:37 AMGildartsthose numbers from final coilQuote:
Originally Posted by Abbul_Stonecleaver
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12-26-2014, 04:08 AMHuntington
I'd believe it, if the player on the PLD really went the distance with melding, they can easily give amazing enmity in Sword Oath and more DPS than a WAR.
I was doing some Leviathan EX runs, as WAR, and the PLD on the team was penta-melded in Wootz, and Ruby accessories. He had +15 VIT in each accessory, the STR that comes naturally, then Determination, Accuracy, and something else melded but I don't remember. At the start of my big pulls I usually do my highest opening enmity rotation, or a variation thereof:
Infuriate > Tomahawk > Heavy Swing > Unchained > Maim > Berserk > Storm's Eye > Internal Release > Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder > Butcher's Block. By the point of Storm's Eye, my enmity and damage is usually great enough to keep enmity from everyone low until Skull Sunder comes in later, but this PLD since he was so decked out, was in Sword Oath and easily overtaking me for top enmity by the point Storm's Eye was going through. Only after Butcher's Block did I push his lower than mine, and I don't go full VIT in my WAR either. I always have one or two STR accessories with Determination in them to buff my DPS. Then this PLD is here and he could easily have tanked in Sword Oath against all the DPS without issue, besides when he didn't have a cooldown to lower a big hit now and then of course.
I would guess a WAR in similar setup would perform amazingly as well, but likely not rip off the MT since they can do the Storm's without getting too much enmity usually unless their damage is heavily buffed by Berserk and the like at the time.