Fishing RNG... Really!?

The title says it all... The over-reliance on RNG for fisher has to be the worst design ever. Fishing is the only class in the game that 100% relies on RNG. Crafters have been given skills to curb RNG's effect, but what are fishers given? Nada. Fishing needs seriously reworked. I can enjoy fishing to the point of losing a fish I shouldn't when I've already fished for weeks to get a rare mooch.

Rant over.

Also the only gatherer with no off hand that gives some additional stat boost. Useless GP. Have to over meld the over melds just to get gathering stats up to par with a non-melded BTN/MIN.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

Also the only gatherer with no off hand that gives some additional stat boost. Useless GP. Have to over meld the over melds just to get gathering stats up to par with a non-melded BTN/MIN.

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The classes have completely different expectations of players stats, you realise. If fishing actually expected BTN/MIN tier stats it'd be impossible, but it doesn't - the stat cutoffs for catching fish are based off of what a Fisher can actually get.

Also having an off-hand for an additional stat boost literally just means you have to sink more money into the class. I'm actually quite happy Fisher doesn't need to do that.

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Originally Posted by Garlyle

The classes have completely different expectations of players stats, you realise. If fishing actually expected BTN/MIN tier stats it'd be impossible, but it doesn't - the stat cutoffs for catching fish are based off of what a Fisher can actually get.

Also having an off-hand for an additional stat boost literally just means you have to sink more money into the class. I'm actually quite happy Fisher doesn't need to do that.

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Tell that to the Titanic Saw fish. What I have to sink money into is materia. If it had an off-hand I could craft it for free.

titanic saw can be caught with 240 gathering, you dont need any melds in your gear to hit that, you dont even need food or other buffs

btw fisher has an ilvl 80 mainhand to compensate a missing oh tool

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

titanic saw can be caught with 240 gathering, you dont need any melds in your gear to hit that, you dont even need food or other buffs

btw fisher has an ilvl 80 mainhand to compensate a missing oh tool

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295 gathering on mine, 400 lugworms later, still no saw fish. The rod you get at 50 iLvl 55 has the same gathering as BTN and MIN main at 50.

the gathering rate has no influences if you get bites or not, it's all rng
some people might have 400+ gathering and wont catch a titanic, an offhand tool wont change that

needed are only ~240 gathering which neither needs materia nor something else


you cant compare fisher with botanist/miner, they are 100% different classes, all you have to think about when fishing is: which gathering rate is required to do not get the "gathering is too low" message -> once you hit the requirement you can always get the fish

perception is basically useless and you dont need any GP

With 399 gathering I had no problem getting both the Titanic Sawfish and Pirate's Bane in a few minutes.

Git gud with RNG.

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

you cant compare fisher with botanist/miner, they are 100% different classes,

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Then get it out of the DoL class. All classes/roles are comparable to their grouping except FSH. Put it in its own class then. Call it "are you feeling lucky today?" or "bored as hell, ain't got nothing better to do". or maybe "try and catch me with your useless stats that don't mean anything" But I think that was the whole point of the OP's message. My point was to maybe realign the stats so that they actually work for you. That's all.

And if I hear another person say " oh I caught the saw fish in only a few minutes" I'm going to punch a Lalafell, and punt him off Cape Westwind, then maybe I'll catch one. A sacrifice to try and appease the RNG gods.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

Tell that to the Titanic Saw fish. What I have to sink money into is materia. If it had an off-hand I could craft it for free.

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I almost burst out laughing when I read this - off-hands are the farthest thing from free. Crafting and Gathering off-hands may well be the most expensive single piece of equipment to meld in the entire game, since they have only one slot and can fully utilize FIVE Tier IV materia. I am SO glad that I have at least one crafting/gathering class where I don't need to worry about the dizzying amount of gil (or time spiritbonding) I'll need to spend to meld the off-hand.

But yeah, fish stat requirements are lower due to the lack of an off-hand boost. As for the RNG, it was made a part of FSH as a deliberate appeal to folks that LIKE the randomness, people who get a rush out of finally seeing that jackpot catch. Because of this FSH was also deliberately made a very low-impact part of the game; there's very few things that FSH provides that are needed by crafters or anyone else, and of those things almost all of them can be caught by a lvl 50 FSH in basic gear. People are encouraged to fish because they like fishing, not because FSH is an important part of the game.

Worm of Nym (and possibly Emperor Fish) are really the only exceptions to this.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

If it had an off-hand I could craft it for free.

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if you had an off hand all the caps would be increased accordingly and you wouldn't have more chance to it. But nice try

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

if you had an off hand all the caps would be increased accordingly and you wouldn't have more chance to it. But nice try

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But I would have another slot basically to stick some high level matetia on it instead of trying to over meld the over meld.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I almost burst out laughing when I read this - off-hands are the farthest thing from free. Crafting and Gathering off-hands may well be the most expensive single piece of equipment to meld in the entire game.

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At this point that I'm at in game, it won't cost me anything to make an off hand unless it had some primal or high end 4 star material needed. But since no other ilvl 55 off hand has that, I doubt I would need any of that and I could make it.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

At this point that I'm at in game, it won't cost me anything to make an off hand unless it had some primal or high end 4 star material needed. But since no other ilvl 55 off hand has that, I doubt I would need any of that and I could make it.

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The trouble with this is that if there WAS an off-hand, all the fish would have higher stat requirements to cover it, PLUS require painful melds just to get on-par with where you are right now:

SE Dev Chief: Okay, word from above is we need to give FSH an off-hand. Forager's Net, or whatever.

Dev 1: Won't that make fish too easy to catch? Gather off-hands give 72 Gathering stat, and that's just the NQ version! Newbie fishers will be able to catch three star fish without even trying!

SE Dev Chief: Naturally, we can't allow that. We'll need to boost the catch requirement for all fish by an appropriate amount to account for the new gear. For endgame fish, we'll need to pump them up by at least 82. But then, we need to account for Materia...

Dev 2: Well, stat caps for Gatherer off hand can get as much as much as 14 additional Gathering...

SE Dev Chief: Well, we don't want to kill them. Let's set the new gathering requirements at plus 94. They can manage that with just two Tier IV materia melds.

Dev 2: Sounds good! We'll get right on it.

Dev 1: Man, just think... We're adding a new piece of gear to FSH, and not only doesn't it help them in the least, they need to get an expensive piece of gear AND meld it with pricy materia just to get to where they were before! Glad I'm not a forum monitor; this isn't gonna be pretty...

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

But I would have another slot basically to stick some high level matetia on it instead of trying to over meld the over meld.

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You're still forgetting that catch requirements would adjust for that. You'd be paying more just to be at the same point you're at.

Either way, higher Gathering literally has 0 impact on whether a given fish can be attempted to be caught - only which of the three results you get: "Your gathering is insufficient to land this catch", "It got away", or "You caught an x!".

If the fish doesn't want to show you could have 999 Gathering and it would make 0 difference to your ability to actually catch it.

Someone tagged this topic "just like real fishing".

Fish in real life don't cease to exist just because it starts raining or gets a bit cloudy.

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Originally Posted by KEV1N

Someone tagged this topic "just like real fishing".

Fish in real life don't cease to exist just because it starts raining or gets a bit cloudy.

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Some do, some don't.

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The classes have completely different expectations of players stats, you realise. If fishing actually expected BTN/MIN tier stats it'd be impossible, but it doesn't - the stat cutoffs for catching fish are based off of what a Fisher can actually get.

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1) They aren't actually that much different; highest BTN/MIN items requires 420 gathering, highest FSH item needs something like... 407, 408? It's a LOT less than the difference an offhand would make.
2) As such, BTN/MIN can easily get everything while still far below their stat caps

Not so with fishing. Come back when you have BTN/MINs doing things like taking i70 DoW/DoM accessories and melding those instead simply for the extra one point of gathering/perception each, milking every little stat point they possibly can, and STILL struggling to obtain their items.

Highest btn/min actually requires more to get efficiently at good rates and to uncover the actual item out of the unspoiled node in one strike instead of 2.

Once you get it high enough, you're pretty close to 100%, just one skill use (which Fishers lack) and you always get the item

We need more control over fishing ]: not just 100% RNG

yeah 100% RNG is rubbish. Although I'm not sure what changed in the last patch, but I seem to be getting a better rate the higher my skills. I'm capped at the moment with FC buffs and HQ spinach quiche and my rate has been way better. Maybe it's just a very high curve.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

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You seem to think I'm not intimately familiar with the challenges of Fisher.

And I'll just answer one thing: We don't have to factor GP into anything. Our BiS wrists? Done in one overmeld by using two Grade III materia. Botanist/Miner BiS wrists? Four overmelds. The amount of tier IV materia BTN/MIN have to sink into their gear even before considering offhands is massive compared to what Fisher does, and then there's the massive cost of Offhand overmeld failures.

The cost of pushing FSH towards its caps is drastically less than what it would cost to push BTN/MIN towards its caps. Only recently with the Forager's gear has this changed and even now it's more like it's comparable. Offhands being introduced for Fisher would still come with a soaring of Gathering/Perception expectations to match.

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You seem to think I'm not intimately familiar with the challenges of Fisher.

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Your first post in this thread didn't seem to indicate such intimate understanding :<

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Offhands being introduced for Fisher would still come with a soaring of Gathering/Perception expectations to match.

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I don't see why this would necessarily have to be the case when they're already basically as high as BTN/MIN's are, as indicated by the fact how even with BiS everything for FSH you can and will continuously lose big fish, and not even just the most difficult ones. Right now, FSH is behind where BTN/MIN is in terms of their stat potential keeping up with what is available for them to obtain.

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And I'll just answer one thing: We don't have to factor GP into anything.

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You act like this is supposed to help FSH somehow.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

295 gathering on mine, 400 lugworms later, still no saw fish. The rod you get at 50 iLvl 55 has the same gathering as BTN and MIN main at 50.

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i had about 330 gathering on mine, got the titanic sawfish to appear, and lost it because "gathering skill was too low"

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I don't see why this would necessarily have to be the case when they're already basically as high as BTN/MIN's are

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It's not accidental that the difficulties of obtaining the largest fish are set to what they are right now. Yes, it would help with current fish - and all future fish in turn would be based around having it. The devs are fully aware of what the potential stat caps for Fishing are, and they've chosen time and time again to set the 'final test' for "Yeah, you're going to need almost perfect". That trend would likely just continue, because that's the intent they have demonstrated so far.

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as indicated by the fact how even with BiS everything for FSH you can and will continuously lose big fish, and not even just the most difficult ones.

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If fish were intended to be in any way a guaranteed catch, they'd have very different mechanics from what they have now, if not solely in terms of the rate vs minimum-to-catch lenience they would have given us. It's not BTN/MIN.

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You act like this is supposed to help FSH somehow.

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It does. If we're not spending money on GP materia/higher level materia so we have space for GP materia, we can, for the same amount of functional/financial investment as BTN/MIN, come closer to our max potential. That's what's being factored in.

What I wanna stress here though is something I've brought up before on the subject of Fisher off-hands: Those things eat money to meld well. Adding one "for more stats" sounds nice, but frankly, it just makes the investment floor higher. The desired end result - having more reliable catches on the most difficult fish - doesn't require the implementation of an off-hand, but rather a change in the way these catch rates and requirements are being set to begin with.

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i had about 330 gathering on mine, got the titanic sawfish to appear, and lost it because "gathering skill was too low"

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Titanic should not have that message appear at 330 gathering. However, there's a new fish that can appear under certain conditions that has an absolutely massive Gathering requirement, and that would have prompted the message.

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Originally Posted by warren-ragnarok

i had about 330 gathering on mine, got the titanic sawfish to appear, and lost it because "gathering skill was too low"

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If you are referring to the message that appears something like "you sense a larger catch comes to the surface" or something like that. That was added in 2.4 patch, I don't think that is the saw fish, from the patch notes:

Fish that only appear based on your previous catches have been added.
E.g. Breeds of fish that only appear after five of their natural predator have been caught.

I can't imagine the silver shark or wahoo being a predator of the saw fish, since you need the wahoo to catch the saw fish. I think the only way to know that you hooked the saw fish is to watch the pole and how it bends. I've now been through over 500 lugworms and no saw fish.

I will try and overmeld my gear, to get my gathering up over 300 and see if that helps ( I know people here are saying that if you have enough gathering to fish the hole thats enough, but I am still not convinced that this is true, it seems like people are just speculating this). I did increase my gathering some and I have noticed now when I fish for the boar skin maps I now catch them within 5 casts, before it would be 20 or more. Happy fishing.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

I know people here are saying that if you have enough gathering to fish the hole thats enough, but I am still not convinced that this is true, it seems like people are just speculating this). I did increase my gathering some and I have noticed now when I fish for the boar skin maps I now catch them within 5 casts, before it would be 20 or more. Happy fishing.

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I'll argue the opposite - nothing to date has suggested in any way that gathering has any impact on what fish are attempted to be landed, just on whether the catch is successful, and your case is just speculation. Sitting at upwards of 350 gathering for a while now I've had a variety of timings involved in how many casts any given map requires - and there's a great deal of other factors (Availability of other fish in the pool, bait, etc).

Not that raising your gathering's a bad idea, if not solely to ensure that when it does show up you don't miss it. And hey, do it now and you don't have to do it later.

Titanic's just known to have taken quite a while for some people - one FC friend of mine has probably been to the open window about 30 times now and still hasn't had it show up. Everyone's got a different fish that just refuses to show (looking at you ninja betta)

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Originally Posted by Garlyle

I'll argue the opposite

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Yes, I know you will. But its all good.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

....
I will try and overmeld my gear, to get my gathering up over 300 and see if that helps ( I know people here are saying that if you have enough gathering to fish the hole thats enough, but I am still not convinced that this is true, it seems like people are just speculating this). I did increase my gathering some and I have noticed now when I fish for the boar skin maps I now catch them within 5 casts, before it would be 20 or more. Happy fishing.

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My fisher alt, http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/1417349/ is currently at Gathering 366 and Perception 300 without food. Even with food there are some fish she cannot catch due to gathering too low.

Yes raising your gathering and perception WILL help. But the Boarskin map thing is our old friend the RNG. She gets them usually in the first 15 casts, but occasionally fishing fatigue will set in before she can land one.

I have full Foragers gear and max melded in perception and gathering. With food and FC buff, I hit around 410 gathering.

I am still having fish at 310~ gathering get awya due to just RNG.

Gathering only makes it so you can catch the fish, nothing else at all.

This isn't just speculation, this is just through and through how it is. When I have the current maximum gathering you can aquire, you'd think that I should be able to catch 1 stars and 2 stars with no misses, right?

Wrong. They still get away now and then.

EDIT: Though I will test this out when I get the Ironworks rod. Apart from that, I'm maxed.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

And if I hear another person say " oh I caught the saw fish in only a few minutes" I'm going to punch a Lalafell, and punt him off Cape Westwind, then maybe I'll catch one. A sacrifice to try and appease the RNG gods.

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*hides under my tiny blanket and continues fishing for big fish*