A question for the Melee and Bards

I see this a lot, more now as a ninja than I did as a drg since I now have goad.

Bard players (most) argue that they shouldn't have to play paeon, that all melee dps need to learn how to manage their tp. That the dps loss the melee suffer vs the damage loss of the brd and casters dps is not enough to warrant paeon.

Melee dps argue that bottoming out on tp and leaving your melee dps to starve until invigorate comes back up is more of a dps loss for the raid group than playing paeon for a period of time to sustain them until their next invigorate usage.

To be honest I'm more inclined to agree with the latter due to my past experiences in those situations. The brd in my static actually plays paeon to sustain the mnk and I due to the two of us being the highest dps (mnk being the top) in the party. If we aren't fed, raid dps can drop significantly for a period of time.

If you only have one melee in the group, I could see a valid argument, but with two melee (be it mnk, drg or nin) who should be a great deal higher than any of the casters at this point (save for blm if he's getting crazy procs) I just don't see how this is the case.

I, personally, have a problem with the answer "manage your tp better". Performing sub optimally when it comes to at least keeping my "priorities" doesn't sit well with mme.It has gotten to the point that random bards don't get goad from me unless I see them playing paeon for me at some point. Some would call that selfish, but if I'm out performing everyone and the other melee dps is as well and then we get left out to dry and rot until we can fend for ourselves again I don't see why I should.

At that point, I may as well At least feed the other melee my goad so at least they can continue to put up their numbers.

Explain why playing paeon for melees isn't worth it from your point of view, because I'm sure plenty of melee players can prove why it is worth it from theirs.

Call melee players selfish if you want.. but that same phrase can be thrown right back at the bards.

I am now genuinely curious about where the answer lies between these two opposing views.

im trying to find your question. its not there.

I see a group of statements. I thought you had a question.

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

im trying to find your question. its not there.

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I assume the question is: wich one is right? Greedy Bard or TP adicted Melee? If this is the question, I don't have the awnser.

But in my FCoB experience, as a DRG with the lowest Skill Speed as possible, I am not having any TP issues so far. Obviously if I miss the Invigorate timming or die, I'll be in trouble, besides that, our Bard never play TP songs.

Sometimes, in some t10 encounters where I end up not going for any Dash or t12 where no Ice mark targets me, I can starve for TP for some seconds, but it won't happen too often and, due to be free from mechanics for so long, the DPS gain kinda make up the DPS loss.

I edited to get more room in the post.

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Originally Posted by Dunncan

I assume the question is: wich one is right? Greedy Bard or TP adicted Melee?

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OK, if that is the question, the only thing I can suggest, is that BRD's have to make a case by case decision based on the party make up. A BRD has to think about where the best use of their songs lie. If there are lots of melee dps, they need to consider whether it is more beneficial to the group to sacrifice a their own dps to increase the group's overall dps. The same goes for if the group has a lot of magic dps. The loss of a BRD's max dps potential vs a giant increase in the group's DPS potential would seem worth it in my opinion.

I have personally grown tired of seeing BRD's that play their class as glorified Archers. For example, a recent ST run I did had 6 BRD's and 5 BLM's. Not one BRD used Flaming Arrow, or any other AoE attack, nor did any of them use Foe Requiem, which I think would have helped all the BLM's blast the almighty hell out of the mobs. They may have had other songs up, but I swear I never saw any song animations from any of them the entire raid. It all just seems rather selfish in my eyes, tbh.

It's a non-issue imo. As a Monk, I pull 550 DPS on a boss, and the BRD maybe pulls 400. If I'm TP-starved, that DPS goes down to around 200. You take a 20% damage penalty taking you down to 320 dps for a few seconds. If you're a BRD who thinks the raid will benefit more from your extra DPS (which will, in face, end up being less than the 80 mentioned) vs my lost 350 DPS, you're a moron and shouldn't be raiding in the first place.

Theres a breed of bard who think they out dps monks I guess. Or else they want to get higher on agro list, or score better in parse? These bards are scum, and should be avoided like the plague. Basically a waste of a party slot because a bard is there for tp, mp and extra magic damage. I'll be the 1st one to say bards do have great dps considering their support capabilities, but to earn their party slot they need to assist and support.

inb4 pointless arguments from idiot bards trying to state otherwise....

I think the question is 1) do you play foes max out caster dmg or 2) play Paeons to keep up melee dmg and also hinder caster & brd dmg? When asked option 1 or 2, my answer is 'yes.' I see it a combination of both, something like BVed Foes at pull, then Paeon shortly after the melee use their first invigorate and all brds buffs are on CD. You dont have to play paeons until out of MP, but 15-20 secs can make a world of difference helping melee get to that next invigorate. I think this should apply whether 1 or 2 casters in party, but then again Im a melee ;)

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Originally Posted by TheKingSlayer

filth (jk)

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This is honestly more or less the way i feel. I think yes we should play paeon, but only to get you through the hump, no bard should be playing paeon for more than half its mana. I generally run out of tp at the same points as my monk partna if actually touching buttons, so its abit easier to time how much he will actually require it.

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Originally Posted by TheKingSlayer

stuff

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See, I can get behind this. A lot of mdps don't/aren't asking for a brd to play paeon for a minute at a time. Most mdps just want it played long enough to cover the gap between bottoming out and the next invigorate. With proper use of invigorate, this should translate to 30 seconds at most of paeon.

Lol one way SE could fix the problem is to add the damage penalty to foes as well, though I'm pretty sure it would cause a riot lmao.