My own hypothesis on the nature of Primals [SPOILERS]

If all it takes to summon a primal is faith and crystals, and considering the different kinds of beings that Primals are, from elemental gods worshipped by beast tribes such as Ifrit, Titan, Garuda, Leviathan, Ramuh, etc. to figures from folklore and history such as Shiva and Moggle Mog, then what if the truth of the primals is that they're essentially imaginary? In other words, what if the primals don't actually "exist"?

Let me put it this way: if our universe worked in the same way as Hydaelyn does, if aether and crystals were part of our reality, then we could summon primals in the form of gods from all cultures (Zeus, Anubis, Thor), and even as historical, legendary, or folk figures. We could summon Jesus and Santa.

This is because the primals are not "gods" in the traditional sense, but imagination given form through the will of living beings and their aether. God made man in His image, but primals are gods made in Man's (or beastkin's) image.

And I'm just a butterfly dreaming that it's human. ;)

And, oh, the chair you're sitting on doesn't actually exist. You just imagine it does. :p

The deeper epistemological point is that you can only really "know" what you can physically experience.

Shiva the primal may only be a figment of Iceheart's imagination, but she hits hard enough to convince my character she's very, very real. ^^;;;

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Originally Posted by appledoze

Let me put it this way: if our universe worked in the same way as Hydaelyn does, if aether and crystals were part of our reality, then we could summon primals in the form of gods from all cultures (Zeus, Anubis, Thor), and even as historical, legendary, or folk figures. We could summon Jesus and Santa.

This is because the primals are not "gods" in the traditional sense, but imagination given form through the will of living beings and their aether. God made man in His image, but primals are gods made in Man's (or beastkin's) image.

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It seems that their souls comes from the sea of star ( = afterlife ) and take a physical form in the real world, it's unknown if their avatar is what they looked like or not ( I think it can change based on the worshippers, I doubt that Shiva had a icicle crown when she was alive, a little like FFIX summons ), with Shiva it seems that any spirit from the sea of star can be summoned with enough crystals and prayers.

What if....the twelve are the only, and I'm using this term loosely, real entities... These "primals" are just a primitive, or primal, fragment of them?

Let's say Rhalgar is a Black Mage (a stretch, I know /sarcasm) and Ifrit is or was some creature that was imbued with the all aggressive, ever destructive fire traits of him. Lady Iceheart was imbued with some power of Halone, using this St. Shiva as a connection between the two (Perhaps the echo gave Iceheart the power necessary to make this connection). King Mog could have just been a moogle, a highly thought of moogle, but just a regular moogle all-in-all. When the moogles became distressed, they looked to and prayed to their king, effectively granting him some god-like powers from, say, Athlyk maybe.

It's entirely possible that when the Ascians taught summoning to the beast tribes, they showed them only how to call on the negative sides of the twelve in order to further their scheme. To go along with this theory, there would also be purely positive aspects of the them, as well as the god as a whole (which no one yet has been successful in summoning).

Is your mind still intact? If so, what is it thinking?

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

Is your mind still intact? If so, what is it thinking?

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Originally Posted by H.P. Lovecraft

We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.

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;)

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

It's entirely possible that when the Ascians taught summoning to the beast tribes, they showed them only how to call on the negative sides of the twelve in order to further their scheme. To go along with this theory, there would also be purely positive aspects of the them, as well as the god as a whole (which no one yet has been successful in summoning).

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That's an interesting theory, especially given what little we do know about the Twelve. Whatever they are, their essences are apparently too enormous to be summoned by mere individuals.

That being the case, it's may well be as you suggest: The primals themselves may actually be smaller pieces of the Twelve, just like how the egi are also smaller pieces of the primals.

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

The primals themselves may actually be smaller pieces of the Twelve, just like how the egi are also smaller pieces of the primals.

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Exactly. Think of the Twelve as clusters, Primals - crystals and Egis, shards. But for each cluster there is an astral and umbral crystal. We've just yet to see these astral crystals or full clusters in use. :P

Well if all it takes is faith and crystal imagine this.

Our brave Warrior of Light, Guarding of Eorzea, The Icebreaker... dies. Have lost they champion people are thrown into despair. Primals do what they want and wreak havoc, Garleans is coming, Alphinaud gone crazy and some other nasty stuff. And so all land of Eorzea is crying to the skies to bring they champion back to protect them once again... and so new Primal is born.

Considering current Lore 10/10 will happen if Warrior of Light to die.

For all we know, the Twelve aren't "real either". Gaius rightfully points out that the manner in which the Twelve were summoned when Dalamud fell was similar to the manner in which Primals (or eikons as he calls them) are summoned. It was the will and faith of people to protect Eorzea that summoned the giant circle, not the Twelve. It merely appeared in the form of the Twelve because that's what manifested as the representation of peoples' faiths. So if we go by this, the only real deities are Hydaelyn, and possibly Zodiark, though we know very little about him.

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Originally Posted by appledoze

For all we know, the Twelve aren't "real either". Gaius rightfully points out that the manner in which the Twelve were summoned when Dalamud fell was similar to the manner in which Primals (or eikons as he calls them) are summoned. It was the will and faith of people to protect Eorzea that summoned the giant circle, not the Twelve. It merely appeared in the form of the Twelve because that's what manifested as the representation of peoples' faiths. So if we go by this, the only real deities are Hydaelyn, and possibly Zodiark, though we know very little about him.

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[Final Coil of Bahamut Spoilers]

(http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Coil-SPOILERS)

Correct me if im wrong but when the keeper of the lake destroyed the garlean airship didnt he realease primals (ifrit, titan ect)

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Originally Posted by KiritoKhun

Correct me if im wrong but when the keeper of the lake destroyed the garlean airship didnt he realease primals (ifrit, titan ect)

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Dunno. That's sure what it looked like, though, didn't it? All we know for sure is that Mor Dhona is where the aetherial rivers converge, and that Midgardsormr guarded a seal on that aether, and when he died, we saw a whole bunch of primals flying out of it. We've never been told what that was. It looked like primals were sealed there, but then what sealed them? The Allag? Why there? In what? We can speculate, but we have no confirmation. For all we know, it was a visual representation of "Oh, hey, lots of aether, and now primals can be summoned." On the other hand, Odin was sealed in a crystal in a spring. Maybe the other primals were sealed in the most crystalline region of the realm beneath a giant lake. Maybe we'll find out in 2.5!

I agree with anonymoose. It's likely a representation of the releasing of the aether seal under Silvertear. Although as I see it, its possible that even after a primal's physical form is destroyed, their aetheric essence still exists in the flow of aether after they are first summoned. The breaking of the seal in the lake meant that it became feasible to summon primals since large amounts of aether are required to do so.

As for Odin, I feel that his case is that of a person who either became a vessel like Iceheart, or became a primal himself like Louisoix. However he was somehow sealed away by Urth instead of being defeated. Its likely the breaking of the seal in the lake allowed him to gain enough strength to break free.

Pffft, what a stupid theory.

Everyone knows you can't summon Santa, he only shows up on the Eve of Christmas every year.

...WAIT! Mall Santas! They must have come from the Aether! I understand now. Thank you.

Odin was released when the Garleans began digging around, afaik.

I like to picture the Garleans backing up their backhoe, bumping into a giant glamour dispeller wedged a wall, cracking it and releasing his spirit. Odin then roflstops the digging crew and walks away in slow-motion.