Real Money to Get In-Game Currency: Eternal Bond Edition

So literally half the party finder on Balmung is littered with people buying the Eternal Bonding bracelets for real money and selling them for 2.5-3 mil gil.

Isn't this against the ToS? Using real money to gain in-game currency?

Though im not a GM and I can't say how they will respond Tera did this with a lot of items. Mostly vanity but at one point even subscription. It actually worked out really well for those who make good money in game and no so much in RL and helped those who weren't good at farming up gil in game also have gil so im actually kinda cool with this idea :o

Honestly a Lot of games do this sort of thing and it works out quite favorable in the end. I doubt Se would mind if they don't mind people selling wins for ridiculous prices. I would be more opposed if it was something you could only buy from a cash shop. Buying cash shop items and selling them on game is great for some people.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

Also, that seems like an appallingly low return on your 'investment' 2.5-3mil for 20 dollars...I mean, I have no idea what the RMT's charge...but that seems like a lot of real money to spend for a very small gain...

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it works well to cut rmt out too I mean yea its a bit of a jip to spend 20 bucks to sell something for 5 mil when rmt say buy 5 mil for $10 but at the same time there's no illegal transaction going on with a shady person se is already investigating and no chance that banning so in the end it hurts the rmt and keeps people from doing stupid things likely to get themselves banned. This also helps people who make more real money then others and helps those who make gil better then real money. Kinda a win win, unless your a rmt.

(also it's Christmas and im broke so this is kinda great to me as I make a good amount of game money farming)

This is why we can't have nice things.

http://media0.giphy.com/media/oN6ERSh4LKhuU/200_s.gif

In all honesty though, I'm sure they're okay with it and knew of that potential beforehand. The fad will likely die off VERY soon. Sure, some people may continue to try to sell these goods, but at the price it is on the cash shop... it probably isn't worth it for 99% of the population.

No because your selling an in game item the bracelet for in game currency.

Also, that seems like an appallingly low return on your 'investment' 2.5-3mil for 20 dollars...I mean, I have no idea what the RMT's charge...but that seems like a lot of real money to spend for a very small gain...

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Originally Posted by Zumi

No because your selling an in game item the bracelet for in game currency.

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Pretty much this. I am curious as well. Their ToS is not explicit against it.

Odin PF is full of people buying and selling these cash shop items as well...

May as well be playing a F2P game.

Honestly, if they didn't expect people to sell these, even their most faithful fanboy would start to question their competence.

And still, lots of people will continue arguing cash shop is not game breaking

Still, we need an official stance from the GMs or the Devs. We don't know for sure what they will think about this. Just after 5 minutes of PF I got around 10 messages on the line of "Me and my FC will report you for RMT", "You're going to get banned for RMT", Ecc...

Edit: I'm trying to get contact with one of the active GMs on Ragnarok, if I get something out of this topic I will bring it here.

Edit #2: Support confirms that it's NOT a violation of the TOS.

http://i.imgur.com/uhvD11O.jpg

No pay to win! Well unless your idea of winning is to gaining enough gil to buy a mansion on the hill.... ; )

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

No pay to win! Well unless your idea of winning is to gaining enough gil to buy a mansion on the hill.... ; )

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If winning means getting BiS, or being able to beat the hardest content maybe not.
If it means having an advantage over other people for beating or accessing any content, then it is.

One can use gils to buy gear to reach faster the required iLvl for dungeons.
One can buy the most expensive materias for the best relic built, without having to work in game to get the gils, and this gives them an advantage over people that can't afford that.
I personnaly haven't reached the hardest content yet, but i've read about overmelded stuff. To me, it looks a lot like some kind of pay to win.

I have to agree with the OP. A dev's response would be welcome.

Just saw a pf "10 mil obo for plat bracelet"

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Originally Posted by Tsukotaku

Still, we need an official stance from the GMs or the Devs. We don't know for sure what they will think about this. Just after 5 minutes of PF I got around 10 messages on the line of "Me and my FC will report you for RMT", "You're going to get banned for RMT", Ecc...

Edit: I'm trying to get contact with one of the active GMs on Ragnarok, if I get something out of this topic I will bring it here.

Edit #2: Support confirms that it's NOT a violation of the TOS.

http://i.imgur.com/uhvD11O.jpg

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The thing is, their ToS says something different:

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2.2 Real Money Trading, Farming and Power-Leveling.
You may not sell, purchase or exchange for real-world money or value any in-game currency, accounts, characters, in-game services, or in-game virtual items. You may not play the Game for the purpose of acquiring virtual items or advancement in game play on behalf of a third-party or for the purpose of selling any virtual assets to a third party for real-world money, specifically including "gold-farming" and power-leveling services.

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Because you are purchasing an in-game virtual item from the cash shop and selling it for an in-game currency, that alone would violate the "Real Money Trading" rule mentioned within the ToS.

What people need to keep in mind is that the item is classified as Unique and Not sell-able, but not untradeable. The main reason why the item is not untradeable, is that you can get 2 and give one to your significant other / partner. If they really would allow people to sell the item, then the item would be classified as sellable so that people can place it on the marketboards.

The item is not intended for selling to third-person with the intent of receiving an in-game currency for the transaction.

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Originally Posted by Tsukotaku

Still, we need an official stance from the GMs or the Devs. We don't know for sure what they will think about this. Just after 5 minutes of PF I got around 10 messages on the line of "Me and my FC will report you for RMT", "You're going to get banned for RMT", Ecc...

Edit: I'm trying to get contact with one of the active GMs on Ragnarok, if I get something out of this topic I will bring it here.

Edit #2: Support confirms that it's NOT a violation of the TOS.

http://i.imgur.com/uhvD11O.jpg

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GM's are NOT Game Developers. A lot of the time one GM will say it's okay, then the other will say it's not. And then you have times where a GM says it's okay and an actual Game Developer will say it is not. You should always take what a GM says with a grain of salt as half the time they are wrong.

I will continue to wait for an official response on this matter before I take the word of a GM.

If they hadn't accepted the inevitability that players would want to trade these bracelets for gil, they would have designed the system differently.

Also, if they really want to start brandishing the ban hammer for RMT, there are a hell of a lot of moles to whack before they get to players who are selling items in-game that they legitimately purchased straight from the official cash shop.

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Originally Posted by Aezelas

And still, lots of people will continue arguing cash shop is not game breaking

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People have no idea what true gamebreaking is...discuss something is gamebreaking...yeah no.

I for one hope that this is not the stance they take on this, that it is okay.

While they could justify it as being different because the currency being transacted between the players is gil and not real money, in the end someone is being able to use real money to acquire in-game currency.

$ = Bracelet = Gil

therefore

$ = Gil

Odd that they're fine with this but go on and on about how many RMT they've gotten rid of.

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Originally Posted by Kyri

Though im not a GM and I can't say how they will respond Tera did this with a lot of items. Mostly vanity but at one point even subscription. It actually worked out really well for those who make good money in game and no so much in RL and helped those who weren't good at farming up gil in game also have gil so im actually kinda cool with this idea :o

Honestly a Lot of games do this sort of thing and it works out quite favorable in the end. I doubt Se would mind if they don't mind people selling wins for ridiculous prices. I would be more opposed if it was something you could only buy from a cash shop. Buying cash shop items and selling them on game is great for some people.

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When Tera did this, it transitioned to F2P. FF14 is a full subscription based model and buying items from the cash shop to sell for in-game gil is in line with pay to win. Gil can get you higher level equipments, melds, best crafting gears, mansions and other non-vanity benefits.

It's just so weird that they chose to introduce a PLEX/Chronoscroll-ish like kinda sorta but not really because you can't buy sub time system with weddings. Then again it's SE and they're always so backwards, though I guess they could be testing the waters for a real PLEX system, who knows, or it could like be a genuine mishap like the myriad this game and the latest installments in the franchise have.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

$ = Bracelet = Gil

therefore

$ = Gil

Odd that they're fine with this but go on and on about how many RMT they've gotten rid of.

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This.

A lot of people have an idea that "pay to win" is winning something directly such as clearing coil or winning some epic battle instantly. They'd argue that if SE sold high-end gear in the cash shop that you'd still need effort and skill to clear/win on dungeons and raids.

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Originally Posted by Xhominid

People have no idea what true gamebreaking is...discuss something is gamebreaking...yeah no.

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Ikr? Gil doesn't buy you anything that will break the game. Even using it for melds is far from game-breaking, and almost anything else you do with it is fluff that doesn't impact gameplay at all.

If funding pentamelds, having a marginally more optimal Novus, and buying more food off the marketboard = the extent of gil's effect on gameplay, I think we're fairly safe.

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Originally Posted by Zephyranthes

This.

A lot of people have an idea that "pay to win" is winning something directly such as clearing coil or winning some epic battle instantly. They'd argue that if SE sold high-end gear in the cash shop that you'd still need effort and skill to clear/win on dungeons and raids.

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That last part is true, but the backlash would be severe from people who watch others whiz by them in progression while they slog through the gearing process normally.

SE would also never do this since too much instant gratification leads to players not logging in frequently.

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Originally Posted by Grimmel

GM's are NOT Game Developers. A lot of the time one GM will say it's okay, then the other will say it's not. And then you have times where a GM says it's okay and an actual Game Developer will say it is not. You should always take what a GM says with a grain of salt as half the time they are wrong.

I will continue to wait for an official response on this matter before I take the word of a GM.

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The GM team is, most likely, the one that will take or indicate actions against your account in the case you're breaking the TOS. They've to follow strict guidelines provided by the publisher and/or the developers.

If anyone wants a plat bracelet for 100 mil send me a Tell
/end sarcasm

Or nearest offer.

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Originally Posted by Tsukotaku

The GM team is, most likely, the one that will take or indicate actions against your account in the case you're breaking the TOS. They've to follow strict guidelines provided by the publisher and/or the developers.

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And yet there have been several instances in this MMO and others; Where a GM will say something is okay and then a Game Developer will say it is not.

The GM team are enforcers; they are not judges. There is a separate team that hands out verdicts(Bans) based on GM reports; that separate team is the task force for this game. Every game has GM's and a separate set of representatives that hand out the bans based on information from GM's.

It's the same thing with RL; Police enforce the law and can arrest someone for something if they deem the individual is breaking a law, but they cannot issue jail time or other sentencing as it is not their jurisdiction.

SE clearly created a loophole so that they can get more sales. Then see how the community responds before saying its ok or not ok.

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Originally Posted by Grimmel

The GM team are enforcers; they are not judges. There is a separate team that hands out verdicts(Bans) based on GM reports; that separate team is the task force for this game. Every game has GM's and a separate set of representatives that hand out the bans based on information from GM's.

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Um, GMs have the power to ban players in every MMO and carry out said bans. If they didn't have that power, how could they "enforce" anything? Or do you have some knowledge of SE's GM power structure?

Look at the White Knights.

Retainers don`t mean there will be a Cash Shop.
Cash Shop doesn`t mean there will be content put behind it.
Content behind the Cash Shop will never become P2W.

Desperate White Knights, this is pay 2 win, period. Anyone can now buy these, sell them and get runs and gear from coils or other content. Advancing in RAID content thanks to this. Getting ACHIVEMENTS with this. If that isn`t pay 2 win... Well, lol.

I am all for this, and I'll tell you why. 1) In order to get wristlets, you have to pay real money. RMTs, as we know them, will not part with real money. Their goal is the opposite. 2) This gives people who do not want to spend real money a way to have the very best weddings though only in game means. 3) RMTs are targeted because they are not consumers. They generate huge quantities of goods and currency without needing any, and it devalues the efforts of real players who can not compete with automated robots or underpaid china men. When players sell wristlets, money just moves from one consumer to the next who, in turn, plans to buy something from another player.

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Originally Posted by Alexander_Dragonfang

Look at the White Knights.

Retainers don`t mean there will be a Cash Shop.
Cash Shop doesn`t mean there will be content put behind it.
Content behind the Cash Shop will never become P2W.

Desperate White Knights, this is pay 2 win, period. Anyone can now buy these, sell them and get runs and gear from coils or other content. Advancing in RAID content thanks to this. Getting ACHIVEMENTS with this. If that isn`t pay 2 win... Well, lol.

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White Knights White Knights White Knights White Knights White Knights White Knights. All I could hear from you.

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Originally Posted by Vondoomervil

White Knights White Knights White Knights White Knights White Knights White Knights. All I could hear from you.

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That's a damn lot more than I heard. You must have amazing ears to hear text on a forum.

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Originally Posted by Aldora

Because you are purchasing an in-game virtual item from the cash shop and selling it for an in-game currency, that alone would violate the "Real Money Trading" rule mentioned within the ToS.

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It's not against the ToS because you aren't buying in game gil for real world money. You are buying an item from the mog station with real world money (not ToS breaking). You are then selling an in game item for in game money (also not ToS breaking). How people can think you can be banned for trading in game items for in game gil is truly mind boggling.

I don't know why everyone is so worked up about it anyways. There are any number of items that I can make and sell for far more than a platinum bracelet, and it doesn't cost me a single real life cent.

I posted this in another thread but i'll recite it here since I believe it has more relevance.

I re-opened a ticket I had in the past regarding a previous violation I had received for an issue similar to this. I had a friend who had an extra dalamud minion and I purchased it with Gil. Hence small violation.

So I spoke with them today since this new stance (wedding bands/dye) seems to be completely the opposite of what the TOS suggests. Apparently, the Optional Cash shop is an exception to the TOS rules and it is not considered a violation to sell the cash shop items for in game currency. Isn't that a lovely double standard?

I'm fine with receiving the small punishment I got in the past, but why create rules and then pick and choose how to enforce them? Pretty messed up if you ask me.

Basically, any person purchasing those bands did the exact same thing I got cited for but this "exception" makes it not punishable.

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Originally Posted by Grimmel

So literally half the party finder on Balmung is littered with people buying the Eternal Bonding bracelets for real money and selling them for 2.5-3 mil gil.

Isn't this against the ToS? Using real money to gain in-game currency?

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um gil is not real money and bracelets are purchased by cash shop with is legal and on their terms.

You angry because you ain't making gil or something?

I ain't buying bracelets on cash shop and selling them but if people making gil on that good for them doesn't really bug me its not limiting me of my game experience.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

$ = Bracelet = Gil

therefore

$ = Gil

Odd that they're fine with this but go on and on about how many RMT they've gotten rid of.

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This is fundamentally wrong.

RMT, by traditional definition, is a transaction where one sells in-game currency, items, and/or powerleveling services for IRL money to make IRL profit.

IE: Seller has 10 million gil. X character purchases that gil from seller for $5 US currency. Seller profits.

In the case of selling an item purchased off of a web site/game cash shop for in-game currency, there is no IRL profit for any individual involved (aside from the game company).

IE: Seller purchases bracelet from cash shop. Sells it in-game for X amount of gil. Seller makes no IRL profit.

NOW! If someone tried to purchase said cash shop item then turn around and attempt to sell it in-game for IRL money...THEN that would be RMT as traditionally defined.

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Originally Posted by Valarian

I am all for this, and I'll tell you why. 1) In order to get wristlets, you have to pay real money. RMTs, as we know them, will not part with real money. Their goal is the opposite. 2) This gives people who do not want to spend real money a way to have the very best weddings though only in game means. 3) RMTs are targeted because they are not consumers. They generate huge quantities of goods and currency without needing any, and it devalues the efforts of real players who can not compete with automated robots or underpaid china men. When players sell wristlets, money just moves from one consumer to the next who, in turn, plans to buy something from another player.

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Precisely this. Square has no real vested interest in stopping this kind of trade. It does not actually impact the in game economy in any meaningful way, nor does it have the implicit threats of account theft and credit card information being released into the wild.

Not everything a GM says is to be taken as a dogma. I've had one telling me it wasn't a violation of the ToS to kick a player for being offline while they weren't offline.

No one is buying my bracelets ;_;