DPS wonders: Raiton VS Shuriken

Hi,
As a fellow Ninja, I can tell on first glace that Raiton is way stronger than Shuriken.
Actually a normal Raiton is as strong as a critical hit Shuriken.

However, given the lag sensitive system the Mudras are, is always better to throw a Raiton instead of a Shuriken?

There are situations in which I will not discuss when a Ninjutsu has undisputable priority over the other, for example:

A) A target is 16~25y away? > Shuriken
B) A target is 4~15y away? > Raiton
C) You just used Kassatsu for the sake of attacking one target with a certain critical hit? > Raiton

Nonetheless, the question here is, what if your target is within 3y, Aka the melee range?

As we all know, using the Mudras means a complete halt of your GCD/oGCD rotation, and unlike Katon, Doton, Huton, Suiton and Hyuton (lol what?), Raiton and Shuriken have the same purpose of attacking a single target, one for more than the other... but Raiton is by far MUCH slower than Shuriken, and this becomes even more aparent the higher Skill Speed the Ninja possess, hence Raiton easily slows down the GCD/oGCD rotation while Shuriken still barely feels like a oGCD and barely gets in the way of the weaponskills on the melee range.

I have no way to know which one is better and am curious on it for the sake of optimizing my own DPS as well as the other Ninjas out there.

Is there someone who can try out their DPS on a dummy at least using the rotation Huton > Suiton > Shuriken at 3y from target instead of Huton > Suiton > Raiton?

Thanks in advance

If you are halting your gcd skills to use mudra than your doing it wrong. You hit mudra and ninjitsu in between the gcd that way you are not losing time.

Use a macro

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Originally Posted by Destinova

If you are halting your gcd skills to use mudra than your doing it wrong. You hit mudra and ninjitsu in between the gcd that way you are not losing time.

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You cant use GCD while mudraing, unless you wanna bunny, question here is, is it better to use the slow Raiton, or the quick Shuriken if you are beside the target?

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Originally Posted by NarcoticNinja

Use a macro

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That doesnt answer my question either.

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Originally Posted by NarcoticNinja

Use a macro

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That's an absolutely atrocious idea.

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

You cant use GCD while mudraing, unless you wanna bunny, question here is, is it better to use the slow Raiton, or the quick Shuriken if you are beside the target?

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But you can mudra while your GCD is on CD. You should have no issues getting Raiton out as an entirely oGCD ability, even with a 2.0 sec GCD. With lag, you might clip into the GCD with Huton, but Raiton should be no issue. This is speaking as someone whose data has to cross the Pacific, so it's not like I have a small ping, either.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

But you can mudra while your GCD is on CD. You should have no issues getting Raiton out as an entirely oGCD ability, even with a 2.0 sec GCD. With lag, you might clip into the GCD with Huton, but Raiton should be no issue. This is speaking as someone whose data has to cross the Pacific, so it's not like I have a small ping, either.

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yea, its what I think, that throwing Raiton should still fall within the 2 seconds window of the GCD, however I often feel thats not the case unlike with Shuriken, specially when lag spikes, making the 2nd more reliable and so its what brings me to this question :/

I have no way to check, so here you find me :\

And I thought this was going to be about the change to NIN's "kiss" being limited to physical damage.

Well, I highly doubt that Shuriken will be considered physicial... altho it would make sense :|

Definitely go for Raiton, believe it or not it's not a bad thing that it sometimes goes over the GCD allotted time. If you ever tested out Shadow Fang on a striking dummy, you will notice that the very last tic happens at the very last moment of Shadow Fang being active, or rather at the 0 second. This means that re-applying Shadow Fang when it still has 1 second left is actually gimping it for 40 potency, but skipping Shadow Fang and doing Aoelian Edge or Dancing Edge and then coming back to it isn't as efficient or ideal. With Huton being 70s and Ninjutsu being 20s cd, you have 10 seconds of leighway before recasting Ninjutsu twice. I am able to always manage to time this so that when I get to a point where I would recast Shadow Fang with 1s left in the duration, I use Raiton there instead, so I still get significant burst damage from Raiton and I don't lose that extra 40 potency tic from the very end of Shadow Fang since casting Raiton will cause you to use Shadow Fang about 1s later. Also, using Kassatsu -> GCD skill -> Raiton during Trick Attack makes for a godlike 1.5k+ crit. Raiton wins hands down imo.

Why would you attack a target from so far away? Unless it was just for the sake of pulling it and getting that initial hit in, either way I would go Raiton. There are situations where I prefer shuriken...that's in PvP. Hitting people at large distances while they are mounted so I can heavy them, catch them, kill them.

potency difference post 2.45 for fuma vs raiton should be 48 with slash debuff

might be better if your mudras are lagging i guess

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Originally Posted by SenBosa

Definitely go for Raiton, believe it or not it's not a bad thing that it sometimes goes over the GCD allotted time. If you ever tested out Shadow Fang on a striking dummy, you will notice that the very last tic happens at the very last moment of Shadow Fang being active, or rather at the 0 second. This means that re-applying Shadow Fang when it still has 1 second left is actually gimping it for 40 potency, but skipping Shadow Fang and doing Aoelian Edge or Dancing Edge and then coming back to it isn't as efficient or ideal. With Huton being 70s and Ninjutsu being 20s cd, you have 10 seconds of leighway before recasting Ninjutsu twice. I am able to always manage to time this so that when I get to a point where I would recast Shadow Fang with 1s left in the duration, I use Raiton there instead, so I still get significant burst damage from Raiton and I don't lose that extra 40 potency tic from the very end of Shadow Fang since casting Raiton will cause you to use Shadow Fang about 1s later. Also, using Kassatsu -> GCD skill -> Raiton during Trick Attack makes for a godlike 1.5k+ crit. Raiton wins hands down imo.

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Well, I know Raiton does a big number, and definitely wouldnt use Kassatsu for Shuriken instead of Raiton, the problem here is that if on the long run that little GCD time that Raiton steals every now and then does indeed gimpers DPS or not.

Im still curious of wether Shuriken has more to it than what meets the eye...

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Originally Posted by Barboron

Why would you attack a target from so far away? Unless it was just for the sake of pulling it and getting that initial hit in, either way I would go Raiton. There are situations where I prefer shuriken...that's in PvP. Hitting people at large distances while they are mounted so I can heavy them, catch them, kill them.

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well, you kinda answered your own question there :/

In the worst-case scenario, you can probably roughly think of a .1 second of Raiton lag costing you .05% of a GCD meaning you're doing .05% less damage over time with your next attack. So you'd need to lose .3 of a second in the worst case scenario (delaying an unclipped Shadow Fang) to make using Fuma worth it. I can't imagine anyone losing more than .5 of a second so it'd be a pretty niche case.

Yea, I suppose that only during laggy times Fuma will win out, huh?

Well, I was just curious so I went to test this out and...

Shuriken is definitely considered physical and therefore still affected by Venoms, in other words its actual potency is 240 + 20% bonus damage, while Raiton is plain and simple 360 potency without venom bonus.
A normal Shuriken is about as strong as 5/6 normal Raiton and still much faster.

So I will stick to Shuriken if in Melee while no Kassatsu, Raiton if Ranged, specially given my latency problems.