Hi there, thought I'd get a few peoples insight on this and see if I'm right about this or not.
So after messing around with it on Ariyala a bit, I ended up putting together a full crafted set up + materia (and using the Relic Nexus) and a T13 (Using Dreadwyrm Daggers) end game set. The numbers ended up surprising.
So the full crafted ended up with the Stats of:
Dex: 594, Acc: 548, Crit: 512, Det: 394, Skill: 522
The "Endgame" ended up with:
Dex: 654, Acc: 519, Crit: 471, Det: 386, Skill: 393
Now for that wonderful numbers game.....
First thing to keep in mind the Acc for T13, based on what I found it's about 545. So no matter what your gonna need to either use food with the endgame build, or lose out on a good bit of dps.
Also I'm taking into account the Ariyala numbers for determining dps, so Dex = 1, Det = 0.332, Crit/Skill = 0.187
Nin BiS?
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12-04-2014, 01:40 AMAlchemiiNin BiS?
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12-04-2014, 01:41 AMAlchemii
So since the Endgame is going to have to use food I'm going to apply food buffs to both sets Crafted is going to use Black Truffles Risotto HQ (2% Crit Max: 11 and 5% Det Max 17) and Endgame is going to use Steamed Catfish HQ (5% Acc Max: 30 and 2% Crit Max 12).
Ok numbers after applying food buff
Crafted: Dex: 594, Acc: 548, Crit 522, Det 411, Skill 522
Endgame: Dex 654, Acc: 544, Crit 480, Det 386, Skill 393
Ok so now for the final calculations with all the math done
Crafted: Dex: 594, Acc 548, Crit 97.614, Det 173.304, Skill 97.614
Endgame: Dex 654, Acc 544, Crit 89.76, Det 128.152, Skill 73.491
Last thing the damage on the weapon
Relix Nexus: Physical Damage 53 Magic Damage 39 DPS 17.67
Dreadwyrm Dagger: Physical Damage 58 Magic Damage 41 DPS 19.33
Ok so here's my question, with the weapon damage taken into account does the Endgame gear actually beat out the Crafted, or do the off stats actually Overpower the extra damage of the Dreadwyrm daggers. -
12-04-2014, 01:54 AMTaliss
Looks like you're losing 60 dex and 5 weapon damage, I don't think secondaries are going to make up that damage loss. Also... don't you need like 600 acc / crit to get max bonus out of steamed catfish?
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12-04-2014, 02:58 AMwhiskeybravo
I would look again at your crafted items.. Avoiding skill speed I came up with 618 dex, 547 acc, 545 crit, 407 det, 378 sksp.. You can see if this works I've never linked anything from there: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OQSB
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12-04-2014, 08:23 AMAlchemiiThe lose of the 60 dex is actually made up for, it's the 5 weapon damage I'm worried about. If you look at the second post, you'll see where I did the math for the percentages and notice that it's more than made up for with about 20 extra points to spare, my concern is based entirely on the loss of the 5 weapon damage. As for the catfish this is true, but the other foods will not give you the 545 acc for T13 cap. Even with the catfish it leaves the "Endgame" set at 544, 1 point off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taliss
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12-04-2014, 08:27 AMAlchemiiSo 2 things about this approach first why'd you sacrifice det? That's the best secondary stat. I'm just not seeing where you lose it at is all. Second Crit and Sksp on a nin are both an even stat, unlike other jobs, this is most caused by how low their TP cost is. Anyway I did it the way I did because I kinda looked at it and said "1 point of crit is not worse the loss of 9 points of sksp." or "1 point of Det is not worth the loss of 9 points of sksp." since crit = sksp and 1 det = 3 sksp.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OQXJ
That's the one I came up with, I'll look it over again just to make sure I didn't accidentally put sksp where I should have put det or crit.
Edit: Correction there was 1 materia where I should have put crit over sksp and didn't here's the new one:
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OQXO
Unless your referring to the Relic in which case the answer is simple, Huton. Huton is a 15% attack speed bonus, well last I checked that actually effected both how fast your auto attack goes and your sksp. so it's a 15% bonus on sksp and your auto attack is 15% faster. -
12-04-2014, 08:38 AMwhiskeybravo
I didn't sacrifice any det that was available unless there was something that had skill speed on it, but it's kind of mixed up, a few of the crafted pieces have sksp so I didn't use them.
Also note that the stat weights for NIN on that site are pulled from MNK stats, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are correct. Most likely crit has a higher value then present because for MNK they have traited Internal Release and crit Bootshines so Crit isn't weighted as heavy as the other classes. Secondly, if you play around with the site long enough you'll notice that little changes to the stat weights don't always result in new gear being determined as BiS. However - little changes to the stat weights when calculating totals such as you have DO make a big difference. It's just something to keep in mind, stat weights aren't permanent fixtures like measuring an inch or foot or mile. Most important is the concept of Det > Crit > SkSp when comparing gears. -
12-04-2014, 09:25 AMAlchemii
Regardless even after changing everything around to focus more on crit than sksp. I'm still not seeing how you got the numbers you did. You ended up with less crit than me, and way less sksp. I even went and changes the relic to be crit and det. http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OQYG
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12-04-2014, 12:30 PMDonjo
Okay, it's go time.
First thing: The Ariyala stat weights are wrong for Ninja. They're a direct copy of the Monk's weights, and it doesn't follow the same rules as Ninja. Namely, Crit matters less to Monk than to other classes because of Bootshine auto-crits and the traited Internal Release. Their average Crit Rate is good enough without stacking the stat. So, I'd propose these stat weights as a provisional measure for use in theorycrafting until solid data is acquired.
Crit: 0.250
Det: 0.332
Speed: 0.187
I just increased Crit here because it makes more sense for any non-Monk class to stack it. No biggie.
So, let's explain a thing. I use the numbers that the weights all add up to to create a number that I like to call Damage Potential(DP). Primary stat is 1 DP. Weapon Damage is 8.73 DP. The secondaries are the numbers above. With that in mind... let's add up the total DP of your builds.
Considerations: As far as we know, none of the points up to the "base" for secondary stats actually do anything. This means that 341 Crit/Speed and 202 Determination don't count. I'm not sure if the base DEX number falls under the same jurisdiction. I'll assume for now that it doesn't, and every point matters. It will not change the raw result of which set is better either way.
Crafted Set
DEX = 594
WD = 462.796
Crit = 45.25
Det = 69.388
Speed = 33.847
Total = 1205.281 DP
Endgame Set
DEX = 654
WD = 506.456
Crit = 34.75
Det = 61.088
Speed = 9.724
Total = 1266.018 DP
Conclusion: The endgame set beats the crafted set. Weapon Damage trumps :) -
12-04-2014, 12:35 PMMythToken
Weapon damage will always trump, everything ever. Always.
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12-05-2014, 12:51 AMwhiskeybravoIt's helpful to break it down per progression:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alchemii
545 acc crafted gear w/o FCoB drops - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OR7U
(575 dex, 621 crit, 392 det, 414 sksp)
549 acc w/ FCoB drops/augmented magitek pre-t13 - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OR7Y
(644 dex, 534 crit, 389 crit, 360 sksp) *can gain 11 det with t12 ring but also drops 20 acc so meh, better to eat det food*
544 acc w/ t13 weapon - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OR83
(649 dex, 470 crit, 401 det, 417 sksp) *not impressed with this set really, could probably sub some crafted stuff for better stats at the loss of a little dex*
Yes, that's what I was using pretty much as well. I think crit is very good for Ninja, maybe as good as det. One thing I noticed is the NIN auto-attack is really weak.. The weakest of the melee/brd auto-attacks. Depending on how det affects the auto-attacks, those crit AA are really nice (crit is nice on all attacks, but especially the auto-attacks, trick attack and raitons). Just my thoughts on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donjo
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12-05-2014, 02:41 AMZeviand
No recorded misses with 538 acc. Granted I'm only on p3 of t13. I haven't encountered a time in that fight where I have to attack from the front. Anything beyond that is a dps loss and could be subbed for another stat for a dps increase.
I'd go with something like this:
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OBEN -
12-05-2014, 07:27 AMAlchemiiRight now, I'm still somewhat inclined to believe that crit is equal to sksp, but that is probably going to change on monday with the patch. That increase to TP cost would make it not as impressive, depending on how much they increase it by, at which point I'll probably agree that it would be up almost up to det. As for the AA, I think that's because of the there 70sec buff that increases auto attack speed. The ability to hit more often often makes up for the not hitting as hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
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12-05-2014, 07:53 AMwhiskeybravoIt's fine if you think that, but we're just pointing out that those aren't the weights that have been determined for NIN, they are for MNK. From a conceptual standpoint, it's not logical to assume they would be the same given the different traits each job possesses. I don't know why the auto-attack is as weak as it is, monk AA is not weak despite the same skill speed boost, it's actually the majority of their damage. Another thing to consider is that skill speed does not affect auto-attack speed (one of the reasons no one likes it), so the boost provided by Huton does not stack with skill speed to increase AA frequency, only your normal GCD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alchemii
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12-05-2014, 05:30 PMMrCookTMThis.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
You can look at it this way. You have 4 sources of dps: gcd skills, off gcd skills, dot damage, auto attacks. Both det and crit affect the damage of all four of them. Skill speed on the other hand only affects one: gcd skills. It doesn't make your off gdc's faster since cooldown timers are fixed, it doesn't make your auto attack speed faster, it doesn't make dot's tick faster or more often. Thus, sks just scales really bad compared to crit and det and this is true for basically every physical dps job except for monk, which was explained several times in this thread why mnk is an exception (aka mnk will get a shit ton of crits anyway because of traited IR and bootshine autocrit, so stacking crit too high would be a waste compared to stacking these points into det).
That being said, sks is already the worst secondary stat for nin and I see it getting even worse post patch because of TP issues... -
12-06-2014, 01:17 AMwhiskeybravo
Minor corrections as I try to figure this out.. NIN auto-attack is not as weak as BRD (most likely due to BRDs low weapon damage), and a MNK with no buffs actually seems the weakest. I have MNK DRG and NIN equally geared for the most part, all have 570 attack power (solo), an with regular buffs/damage debuffs AA damage highest->lowest was DRG (250-270, HT and Dis) MNK (230-250, GL3 and DK) NIN (200-230 DE). I didn't get to check BRD w/ disembowel but AA was 170-200 at 564 attack power without it.
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12-06-2014, 09:47 AMViridianaThe actual damage they're hitting for doesn't matter as much as the DPS they do for auto attack. You have to remember that all auto attacks are normalized at 100 potency per 3 seconds. So your DRG and BRD will be doing attacks close to or higher than 100 potency (depending on weapon delay) every 2.8 to 3.2 seconds (maybe longer depending on the bow), whereas your NIN and MNK are doing something around 80 potency every 2 seconds or so. So if I take your NIN and DRG numbers and figure out AA DPS, DRG gets about 87.84 (assuming High Allagan) and the NIN gets approximately 95.56 (again, High Allagan and assuming Huton buff). The MNK wins hands down at 106.67 AA DPS. BRD's only hope of really catching up is Barrage, which gives an extra 6 or 8 attacks per 90 seconds. Due to the high delay on the High Allagan Bow, the math I use will only show 6 extra shots, which is a bit disadvantageous for the BRD, but whatever. If we add in a ~10% buff to the numbers you give, it becomes 190-220 (rounding for ease of use), which is 61.01 DPS without Barrage, approximately 74.68 with Barrage (nevermind that Barrage and Hawk Eye are used together).Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
Of course, all that math I did assumes that you had the High Allagan weapon for each class, but that's because if I just switched weapons around all willy-nilly the numbers would be useless.