Nin vs. Brd

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12-03-2014, 12:46 AM
Hippo

Nin vs. Brd

The nerfing of nin has me thinking - what if SE\\'s intention is for NIN to share the same spot as BRD in a party as the \\\\'utility\\\\' dps?

DPS - Nin has much higher dps than Brd, even in mechanics heavy fight

Boosting others DPS - Nin has TA vs Brd\\\\'s foe requiem. 10% dmg increase for 4 dps + 2 tanks for 1/6th of the fight vs 10% magic damage resistance for 1 to 2 caste

TP boost - Ninja can goad 1 player every 180s while Bard can increase TP of entire party with Army Paeon

MP boost - Nin has no MP restoration ability while Bard has Ballad

Silence/Stun : Both Nin and Brd can silence. Nin can stun but not Brd

AoE dmg: Brd porbably edges out Nin on this one

LB - Nin LB is much more useful than Brd

TLDR: If the party can manage a fight without MP issues for healers and has only 1 melee dps, I think it is feasible to swap the brd for a ninja and arrive at say, a MNK NIN SMN BLM composition

What are your thoughts?
12-03-2014, 01:09 AM
Mardel

Not possible yet, most FCOB requires ballad at some point. Until SE puts in a red mage in with the MP version of Goad... we are stuck with bards. An alternative would be to give Dragoons an invigorate trait that gives an AoE 100 TP like someone suggested in another thread of mine.

But due to that one battle dev, Yoshi-P mentioned at the start of 2.0 that has a hard-on for monk, seems to be getting his way. Monk is the baby and they seem to be dead set on having fights in which they reign supreme. Thus heaven forbid other melee dps be as useful or as strong as Monk.
12-03-2014, 03:26 AM
Felessan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hippo

TP boost - Ninja can goad 1 player every 180s while Bard can increase TP of entire party with Army Paeon

Ninja can't goat himself while Bard can. Ninja already have problems with TP and it'll most probably become even worse after 2.45 fix.
So no, nin is not self-sufficient, unlike bard in TP restoration
12-03-2014, 03:28 AM
Riepah

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felessan

Ninja can't goat himself

Would be a funny alternative to occur for messing up Mudras.
12-03-2014, 03:36 AM
Hippo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felessan

Ninja can't goat himself while Bard can. Ninja already have problems with TP and it'll most probably become even worse after 2.45 fix.
So no, nin is not self-sufficient, unlike bard in TP restoration

How about a Ninx2 Blmx2 setup?

Nin goad each other
10% dmg increase for 33% of the fight
Blm unleaseh hell when TA is up
12-03-2014, 03:38 AM
SpookyGhost

6 NIN, infinite Trick Attack, Goad for everyone.

:D
12-03-2014, 03:49 AM
kyuven

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

6 NIN, infinite Trick Attack, Goad for everyone.

:D

And then the healers cry.
12-03-2014, 03:55 AM
Ronove

If you're going to have two casters, why not just have a bard and a ninja? Foe's + trick attack is very nice. In addition, unless I'm mistaken, Foe's affects some of the ninja attacks.
12-03-2014, 04:03 AM
JayCommon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hippo

What are your thoughts?

My thoughts are: Unless you want NIN to replace BRD in handling all of the movement-heavy mechanics then you won't see this come to fruition. I'm not too far into FCoB yet and I won't watch a video until I have at least attempted a turn. That being said, before nerfs, would you have wanted a NIN to kite the T7 renauds? Would you have wanted a NIN to get the T8 tethers away from the group, or break away from the boss every time you were needed to proc a tower?

A large part of BRD "utility" I think is always left out of what people perceive as helpful to the whole group. In many fights, BRD is the DPS that allows the other 3-4 DPS to (for the most part) mindlessly focus on doing damage, outside of the mandatory telegraph dodging. We allow the rest of the DPS to attain their maximum potentials for fights because we normally carry the weight of everyone's lives on our shoulders. In some fights, BRD's role is even tougher than Healer/Tank. Maybe not tougher, but high awareness is absolutely needed. In turn 8, pre-nerfs I would handle tethers, brainjack, proc'ing towers, proc'ing bombs, low priority on ballistic missiles, and help with allagan field callouts. I'm not saying NIN couldn't do all of this, however NIN will lose DPS uptime. A good BRD will not.

Like I said, I don't know how many mechanics there are like this in FCoB, only that there really isn't any like this in turn 10. But unless SE stops making mechanics that statics will lean on BRD's to handle so the rest of the team can breathe a bit easier and focus more on their primary roles in the fight, I don't think you will ever see a NIN outright "replace" a BRD in a static situation.

Now if they create another DPS who can DPS with free range of motion, may bring less utility but higher DPS than you might start seeing the duo of MNK/BRD replaced with NIN/??? in the future if the DPS ceiling is higher, but if SE does their job balancing correctly than this shouldn't be as much of a replacement, as it would be a viable alternative.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronove

If you're going to have two casters, why not just have a bard and a ninja? Foe's + trick attack is very nice. In addition, unless I'm mistaken, Foe's affects some of the ninja attacks.

That's correct. I haven't played NIN, so I might be wrong with the name of the skill (Raiton?) but we were farming T6 the other night and NIN told me his Raiton crit for like 3-400 more damage when I had Foe up. I don't know how many of its other mudras are affected, only the real high potency one. I think he said he hit for 1900 with that move when affected by Foe.
12-03-2014, 04:08 AM
Hippo

Okies seems from the response to this thread that Brd is THE only irreplaceable dps in a raid party
12-03-2014, 04:21 AM
free_lancer_

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hippo

LB - Nin LB is much more useful than Brd

This will not be true for much longer. This was mentioned in the Letter from the Producer. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2609821
12-03-2014, 04:30 AM
HaelseMikiro

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hippo

Okies seems from the response to this thread that Brd is THE only irreplaceable dps in a raid party

this Turn 13 group disagreed 2 weeks ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8Oqq0npY1M
12-03-2014, 05:19 AM
RinchanNau

No DPS job is 100% necessary in coil. Especially when content is on farm. But I do think BRD is still a very useful job to have for progression and don't really see my group going without a BRD even during our FCoB farm. Perhaps we will try out some different configs to keep from getting bored. I find adapting to new encounters usually isn't too too difficult on my BRD. Freedom of movement while not dropping DPS. Ballad can help lengthen a pull during progression. Can help the healers keep the tanks up a bit longer when dealing with a new phase in a fight, for example.

All that said, looking at damage output in FCoB I think DPS jobs damage output could be better balanced. Even a very good BRD can fall pretty far behind an equally skilled melee or BLM in FCoB. Other DPS jobs seem to be scaling a lot better. On top of that BRDs get 1 less WD than every other job when going from i115 to i135 weapon.
12-03-2014, 05:23 AM
kyuven

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayCommon

That's correct. I haven't played NIN, so I might be wrong with the name of the skill (Raiton?) but we were farming T6 the other night and NIN told me his Raiton crit for like 3-400 more damage when I had Foe up. I don't know how many of its other mudras are affected, only the real high potency one. I think he said he hit for 1900 with that move when affected by Foe.

All ninjutsu (not mudra, btw, the mudra refer to the individual symbols that compose a ninjutsu) except Fuma Shuriken are magic. To verify this, you can go against levi EX and see which ones that tail reflects.
Raiton, Katon, Hyoton, and Suiton are all magic, and thus affected by Foe's and anything that limits magic. This makes DPSing fights like Levi very, very tricky.
12-03-2014, 05:34 AM
free_lancer_

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyuven

All ninjutsu (not mudra, btw, the mudra refer to the individual symbols that compose a ninjutsu) except Fuma Shuriken are magic. To verify this, you can go against levi EX and see which ones that tail reflects.
Raiton, Katon, Hyoton, and Suiton are all magic, and thus affected by Foe's and anything that limits magic. This makes DPSing fights like Levi very, very tricky.

It also makes other fights such as T11 annoying too. Because the Sphere takes 50% dmg on Magic and the Cube takes 50% less dmg on Physical. So NIN DPS gets a slight loss when they're fighting the Sphere.
12-03-2014, 05:48 AM
Sessurea

Brd is just useful. Can help recover when healers die ( ballad + BV ), is good for when you learn content. Foe + casters = sex

Also bards damage is underated.

Ofc paeon is there too.

I think mp regeneration will stay limited to bard, but who can tell. SE keep saying they do not like the idea of red mage....
12-03-2014, 05:50 AM
Mardel

Quote:

Originally Posted by free_lancer_

It also makes other fights such as T11 annoying too. Because the Sphere takes 50% dmg on Magic and the Cube takes 50% less dmg on Physical. So NIN DPS gets a slight loss when they're fighting the Sphere.

Not if you throw fuma shuriken instead.... if you crit the damage is like 1K on sphere.
12-03-2014, 05:58 AM
kyuven

Quote:

Originally Posted by free_lancer_

It also makes other fights such as T11 annoying too. Because the Sphere takes 50% dmg on Magic and the Cube takes 50% less dmg on Physical. So NIN DPS gets a slight loss when they're fighting the Sphere.

Which makes you wonder why they made it mitigate damage instead of outright immune to it like Levi or other, earlier fights. Almost like they knew ninjas would have this problem lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mardel

Not if you throw fuma shuriken instead.... if you crit the damage is like 1K on sphere.

It's still a DPS loss since you can regularly crit 1300+ on Raiton, and the damage will ALWAYS be halved when you use Suiton.
I haven't done t11, but how I handled Levi was to ping pong between the head and the tail. It's pretty much needed because of suiton :(
12-03-2014, 06:01 AM
JayCommon

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyuven

All ninjutsu (not mudra, btw, the mudra refer to the individual symbols that compose a ninjutsu) except Fuma Shuriken are magic. To verify this, you can go against levi EX and see which ones that tail reflects.
Raiton, Katon, Hyoton, and Suiton are all magic, and thus affected by Foe's and anything that limits magic. This makes DPSing fights like Levi very, very tricky.

Thank you for the clarification :)