Ninja in Dungeon, Goad, Vent.

So I'm playing HL Roulette, doing Tam Tara, and there's a Ninja in party. I let the group know I'm pulling in groups of 2, everyone's good with that, Bout halfway through my TP with Berserked/Internal Released/Unchained Overpower spam on 7 mobs ,I ask for Goad. I think my words were "Goad me Bro" which is usually what I say with my Ninja pal I do coil with.... and nothing.

Later, similar stuff, I'm asking "Goad please :)"... "Can I have Goad?" and intermittantly, and reluctantly I'd get it on the rare occassion, but inconsitently.

Finally the ninja states "Can you please Stop doing that". And I ask, "What, asking for Goad" and he replies yes.

Mind you, I've been keeping slashing debuffs up for single target bossed, and Str Speced, Ruby donned zerg mode, supertanking mobs in 2 to 3 groupings at a time

I try to explain that I can use goad to help increase over all damage, and that since he wasn't giving it to anyone else, It simply made sense to give it to me so we could zerg through the dungeon.

Anyhow, he got pouty, got into name calling, etc. We finished... i got my two recommendations from the other two, and now just this bitter taste.

Let me just say, I love Ninjas. I love that we can decide who's doing slashing debuff, that they can goad me, that they can stun adn silence etc. But at the same time, It just drives me nuts that someone would want to leave damage on the table during a speed run. I mean, what's the point of having an ability if your not going to use it? And if your not going to anticipate the need to use it, then asking is the only way it's gonna get used. And if you can't handle that... maybe support abilities are a little outside your skill level.

That's crappy. Goad is instant, and super easy to use in between rotations. Ususally I just use it on the tank after a bit, even if he/she doesn't ask for it.

Ya, I always goad the tanks @ or around 50% for bosses and If we do huge pulls Ill goad the tank shortly before everything dies so the tank is ready for the next one. I have never come across someone who is unwilling to apply it lol.... Also as the post above states it very simple to use in between a rotation.

I love being helpful as DPS, if I have any support abilities, I'm more than happy to use them.

Problem is I play Dragoon, as I prefer it over Monk and Ninja for some reason, I just find it more appealing. :V

Anyhoo, that ninja was being a bad, don't let it get to you. Keep your axe arm strong!

Just a very bad Ninja, i always use Goad in either big pulls or Boss fights on the tank.
I did however have a PLD in ST once basically say i was not a very good Nin because the very first room i did not goad. So the flipside can also be do tanks just rely on Goad now and not bother to learn their abilities? People have been tanking just fine before Ninja came along. But yes goad should still be used

Like most have said, good ninjas (like good bards) actually use the support abilities they have when they are needed. I goad like most while doing big pulls and at bosses. I usually do it before the tank asks for it, and none have ever complained -- most seem pleasantly surprised (which is a little sad...it kinda should be expected). However, like I'shtola said, there are some tanks who may now be getting lazy in TP conservation just because they see a ninja in party, much the same way sometimes MP users can get a little carried away because they see a bard in the party and expect ballad. In the end, it all come down to knowing your job and abilities, and using them to the best for the party and run.

If there's no Ninja, then I reserve TP a bit more, and if I run out, well I got Flash, or I just switch to single target, or pop an Infuriate/Steel Cyclone. In some cases a War with Overpower/Steel Cyclone and appropriate buffs can serve as a 3rd DPS in the party, while still mitigating damage. Considering dungeons consist largely of gaps between pulls where most DPS shouldn't require any additional TP beyond their own Invigorate, it just makes good sense to give it to a War. I could always conserve more TP... but that also means generating less damage.

This discussion makes me think of a healer I had who wanted big pulls, and wanted to DPS and when his cleric stance allowed me to fall, his reply was "Why didn't you Holmgang". but alas... that's a different folder for that topic :p.

That really was bad luck, I mean, its not even a hard skill to use.

If anything the hard part from it is targeting the companion you desire to Goad by using the crosspad. This from someone who doesnt like to play healer for a reason :v

Other than that, meh, keep up the info, if the Nin doesnt comply he is just one more jerk in the game.

As a ninja, I don't mind giving it. It's on my hot bar. Unlike when I play bard, I don't know when TP is low, I'm not going to be able to guess if I'm a little early, so I don't use it preemptively. That said, what did tanks do before goad?

Whenever I roll with a ninja when I am tanking, I don't expect them to use the goad. If the Ninja is good at its class then he will place it on you when times are needed otherwise he will just focus on damage instead. Just don't expect it but you can ask for it but I wouldn't ask for it constantly.

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Originally Posted by EricCartmenez

As a ninja, I don't mind giving it. It's on my hot bar. Unlike when I play bard, I don't know when TP is low, I'm not going to be able to guess if I'm a little early, so I don't use it preemptively.

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There isnt a too early with goad though. For example on T8 when you need to feed multiple tp users the trick is to give it to one of them like 10 seconds into the fight and the other one as soon as its available again.

Sounds like just bad ninja'ing to me. I usually will just throw it out there if I see our WAR in a dungeon doing big pulls or if the other DPS is physical and doing a lot of AOEs.

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Originally Posted by EricCartmenez

That said, what did tanks do before goad?

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Played more conservatively. However, with Goad, we can continue doing AOE DPS without worry. Of course this is specifically for WARs, as PLD uses MP and doesn't do damage outside of CoS which costs nothing. Goading a WAR/MNK/DRG can help a lot in a quick dungeon run.

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Originally Posted by EricCartmenez

As a ninja, I don't mind giving it. It's on my hot bar. Unlike when I play bard, I don't know when TP is low, I'm not going to be able to guess if I'm a little early, so I don't use it preemptively. That said, what did tanks do before goad?

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We sucked it up. And when there's not a ninja, I don't got a problem. But again.. it's DPS on the table. If i'm Berserked/Unchained/Internal Released then I'm a Tank that is a DPS for the duration of those abilities. And the most damaging thing I can do with 8 enemies, is Spam Overpower.

Personally i think War/Ninja should have an unspoken agreement. War "I'll keep slashing debuff up" Ninja, "I'll goad ya when it's up".

If your not using it, it's a wasted space on your hotbar.

Tank, pull already.
Pull?
Go!

~same idea.

PUG Ninjas are the worst. I think I only get Goad from a Ninja bout 10% of them I ask. The other 90% are very unsurprising though, as they never use Huton either.

In your case, OP, vote kicking is probably the best thing to do as he was being aggressive towards you.

I play WAR as well, so don't think I'm one of those, "what the heck do you need more TP for?" types. I understand the rotation, and I certainly get that TP is how we can use more Overpower and other such TP munchers. With a 180s CD, throwing it up there preemptively means I might not have it available when you need it. To the OP's point, you say, "Goad me, bro", it's done. It helps to add a little sound effect to bring attention to the chat. Yeah, single tanking turn 8, grabbing up the dreadnoughts, I hear ya. I know you'll need it. Palladin's been shield lobbing constantly, of course. I'm not stupid. But let's say we start that same fight and I throw Goad. 2 minutes later, you're hit with the need to flood the room with overpower and goad is long gone and a minute away. 60 seconds is approximately 18 moves away. Plenty of time for things to go awry. I'm not saying that I don't hand it out if I think a tank might need it, but I'm not throwing it up just because it's there.

Let's say we're in Sastasha HM, tank runs towards the first mob, do I throw it up right away? Boom, I hit him. Then he collects the mobs to make a large pull. Doesn't really use a lot of TP doing that, just a couple overpowers/tomahawk and we get to the last trash pull. Goad is gone or just about gone. Sorry, thought you wanted it 15 seconds ago. Now you only have it for 15s, not 30. A little communication, maybe? Now we get to the drowned wench and her helpers. Same idea, which one is when you need it? First? Second? Going to have to manage TP in there. And we're on to Capt Madison. Going to need plenty for the end of that fight. How about when we get to the final trash pull before the boss? We all know that the boss isn't tanked anyway, so when is TP most important?

I'm only guessing, but I would think that a WAR would want to manage TP when possible and ask for goad when necessary. Are there times when you can just use it and there are no worries? Sure. But how about the tank makes that call or the next thread is, "The lolNIN is always goading right away, so I never get TP when I need it. Sorry, goad's on CD."

Seen this with SMN who don't use their Eye for an Eye (at all - or intelligently).

Granted, nowhere near as useful as Goad. Regardless, I have seen tanks and healers alike that will spank a SMN for not popping it at least on the bosses.

I've not run into that issue yet, but I use it as often as I can. Especially on big packs of trash pulls or on boss fights. If I were a NIN, I'd expect I would use it no less intelligently. At a minimum, communicate a little.

Never had a problem w/Ninjas using Goad on me, I'll usually ask nicely, and it is received. I really like it, but there are very few times I've actually felt as if I needed it. Namely in Satasha right before the last boss where all those adds come out of no where, that can be troublesome depending. I think that's the only time I regularly request Goad, it simply makes riding "I have TP v I have hate" line easier to ride.

I managed to get into T10 with a DRG that had never partied with a ninja before me and I popped goad on him as the first add phase was starting and over TS we all hear, "What the hell is goad?" We ended up laughing so hard we wiped.

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Originally Posted by Taliss

I managed to get into T10 with a DRG that had never partied with a ninja before me and I popped goad on him as the first add phase was starting and over TS we all hear, "What the hell is goad?" We ended up laughing so hard we wiped.

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Quote:

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/macroicon Goad
/ac Goad <mo>
/ac Goad <t>
/ac Goad <me>
/p Oh My Goad !! >>> <mo>

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This is my macro and the tank react is priceless in pick up, most of them panicking thinking they did something wrong...

I convinced my Ninja pal to use the macro /ac "goad" <tt>

Needles to say he's my favorite ninja when main tanking :P.

I'm 41 on NIN and still inconsistent with my Goads. I'll apply them to tanks when asked for. I'm more proactive about it on WARs than PLDs since one of my mains is WAR, and know the pain of low tp on a more personal level.

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Originally Posted by Steady

I convinced my Ninja pal to use the macro /ac "goad" <tt>

Needles to say he's my favorite ninja when main tanking :P.

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That is soo priceless. If anyone who isn't currently using this comes in here, THIS IS ALL YOU NEED.

<tt> goad is FTW!

I also has a <tp> in my berserk macro, as well as a few others just to keep the NIN updated.

Personally, if I'm doing a roulette I don't goad unless it's asked for. I do have it set to my crossbars and ready for when someone needs it, and honestly if it's a big pull the tank is getting it, usually within 30 to 45 seconds of the fight starting, but other than that it's a by request thing do to the fact that I don't know what your sksp is, or your preferred rotation for a roulette is.
Now a raids of any kind on the other hand, well if I'm going with people I know, they are getting it when they need it, and if I'm going with a pug, well on the second or third wipe I'm pretty much going to know who needs it when with a priority of brd first then mnk followed by drg, though the mnk and drg usually depend on the players and can sometimes interchange, and tank if it's a big pull.
As for the nin the OP was with, that's just a bad nin.

As a bard if we are doing large pulls and the tank isn't a war then I LOVE a nin that goads me when we need to aoe. But yeah had nins goad a pld on a big pull and the pld just goes... erm... I don't need it give it to bard next time.

Been doing a bit of t4 lately and only once did a nin goad me at the start for the initial aoe burn. That felt soooooo good.

That's silly, and a bad NIN. If your tank is not a WAR, then you as a NIN need to look at the next highest TP consumption job, MNK, BRD, DRG, fellow NIN. I have been in two NIN runs where I could have used a Goad on the boss. Besides with the new nerf coming out, might as well practice goading each other now just in case the nerf is that huge and increases our TP consumption by a lot. Hopefully not.

A great way to deal with Goading specific party members is to mess about with your key bindings, making cycling through party members as fast/easy as possible.

For example, I have a mouse with up/down buttons just below the wheel - perfect for target cycling. I bind CTRL + Up/Down to cycle through Party list quickly so I can get those Goads (and PLD Covers) off seamlessly between GCDs.

Use whatever keybind works best for you.