Brand New Gladiator here, tips....go!

Greetings Squeenix forums!

So......I just tanked my first party two nights ago, and the first run was horrible. I expected it to be, I told my party this was D-day, and they were very gracious and patient. Subsequent runs I always inform that this is my first run as tank in dungeons where I have not tanked before. I have done every dungeon as healer and dps, so I know mechanics, but....as a tank it is much different ^^.

Being nice and accommodating is something I take pride in when I play, as I do enjoy the randomness of the parties. I believe it makes me a stronger player as a whole when I can right the mistakes that occur in random duties. Now, I can pretty much hold hate, I'm getting the hang of my rotations and I am one level away from Rage of Halone. Thick skin, check. Combos X2 Flash after opening with shield lob? Check.

How do you guys as tanks deal with the players that pull hate from you intentionally? Should I just ignore and keep on trucking? I had a bard last night that kept fighting me for hate.......he would even initiate the pulls and I'm running all over the place while the WHM is using fluid aura on EVERYTHING. I asked the WHM to stop using FA please, he did. I asked the Bard to stop pulling everything, he did not. I asked him if he wanted to tank, he said fine by me. It was a low level dungeon, Halitali, so my toolkit is still quite sparse, mind you. Is it my fault that I can't pull everything back to me instantly, I can't help but feel a bit offended haha. Tips for dealing with these types of people please?

I open up with Shield lob then Flash X2. After that I do emitey combo and another Flash. After I establish enough ago on my main target I cycle through the mob and see which enemy has the most threat and I do another emitey combo on that target, then another flash and so on till the mob is dead.

It gets a lot easier once you get Shield Oath.

So first off, there are three tiers where enmity will get more comfortable; first is Rage of Halone; I was helping an FCmate who was getting frustrated with the aggro struggle in toto rok then got RoH and never lost another mob. Around Cutters Cry you'll start to have aggro issues again, but then you unlock Shield Oath and life gets so much easier! Lastly at 50 you'll be able to pull off a big burst of AoE AND single target aggro at start, which is very helpful (though keep in mind, gear is vital for tanks, esp. PLD, you'll likely have issues with an i90 sword when your DPS is ilvl 115.)

So now about that ARC; they're the GLA's nemesis at low levels because they have a few off the GCD skills and admittedly it's tempting as an ARC to use them all right off the bat. If the bard is an ass, I'd just let him die/vote kick. Keep in mind the party does not want to lose his tank, though on the otherhand he may be hoping for a vote kick...

If you want to fight him for enmity though, here's a trick I learned in Titan EX; I was in there with my Zenith Sword and reached the phase with the two adds. I'd grab add 1, then switch to add 2, but couldn't get aggro off the BRD who went crazy on it and heavily out geared me, and when I did manage to get it, I'd lose the other add to WHM spam healing through the damage. Wipe. Obviously the BRD should be smart enough to use Quelling strikes before DPSing a freshly spawned mob, but he wasn't. So next try, what I did was mark the add the BRD went for previously as "1", built some solid enmity on the other Titan, then I moved to mark 1 with Fast blade > Savage Blade > Provoke > Rage of Halone and moved them into position where the two adds died. The thing about BRDs is that when doing burst damage, they unload their aggro up front and then settle into easily managed aggro and at that point I coulda held both with just flash, spirits within and CoS because he'd done most of his burst prior to my provoke + RoH and I already had a solid lead on the first mob. It was also quick enough that the BRD didn't take much damage.

In your case what I might've done is grabbed the other mobs, then fast blade > provoke > savage blade on his mob.

Rage of Halone is a tipping point where tanking will become easier, and you'll get your second big one at Level 40 with Shield Oath.

As for how to deal with the intentional hate stealer, I usually just let the person tank on the second occurrence onwards unless the hate steal was explicitly because of a mistake I made. However, that depends on how much you wish to stretch your nice and accommodating nature. In the following situations, however, you might not be able to keep up with certain DPS no matter what you do:

-Toto-Rak before Rage of Halone
-Cutter's Cry before Shield Oath

And don't think that MRDs have it good all the time either. Just try to enter Hawkke Manor before Level 30 and see how well that goes :P

GeekMatt had a pretty conclusive answer.

Remember that you as tank and the healer are the core of the team, and with the exceptions of some DPS-gating bosses, all you really have to do is out-survive dungeon monsters. A Scholar can solo a lot of the 4-man dungeon content - and even bosses. The only reason you're a tank is because the healer can heal you the easiest. You know this, you've been a healer. When one of those DPS thinks they're so cool that they can steal hate and tank... Just ask your healer if that's what they want to deal with. And if the healer says "no", then you say, "let him die then pls". If he says "I can do it", you kind of have to let it go.
It happens, from time to time, and it's rage-inducing.

Excellent tips here guys! Yeah, @PWilson, it is rage inducing! RoH here I come, just one more level. Aside from the couple of DPS that don't pay attention to the aggro meter, things go pretty smoothly with Shield Lob and Flash times 2. Then I just rotate targets and use muh combo that I have. Riot when mp runs low, throw a flash every now and again. Having done the dungeons before, I know mechanics, but jeez, it's pretty different from the tank's perspective!

I'm finally getting around to leveling my Gladiator and it's certainly a different beast compared to warrior. There's a lot more feeling helpless with paladin. Largely because you can Overpower until you turn blue and then throw a few flashes for good measure. Rage of Halone will make it somewhat easier for a while. But someplace in the 30s it'll get harder again. I expect that once I get shield oath it'll be just fine.

The #1 thing is to mark a primary target if you need to. Most people will follow that. There's not much you can do if people decide to single-target different mobs. Just keep up on the primary one and maybe the rebel will get the hint eventually.

Another option is to tell people to AOE when you've got the composition for it. Then you flash and riot-blade (on a mob that's getting autoattack damage!) and it's usually pretty safe agro when all are AOEing. This is risky because, before shield oath, if you have one DPS doing aoe and one doing single target there's little chance to keep everything, somethings going to give.

One last thing is to put bonus points into strength for now. If you're keeping up on gear you don't need the extra HP while you're leveling but 15 strength around level 30 is a boatload. You'll probably need to swap back at 50 if you're not geared yet. If you step into i100+ gear at 50 you could even keep it depending on what content you're doing. If you're tanking for insta-queue roulette ect.: all strength all the time.

At the end of the day the tank is the rate limiter most of the time. If DPS won't cooperate they've got to deal with it. There's a long queue to wait.

Hmm, new to tanking also, so I also have a question -

I was under the impression (maybe I'm working with very old knowledge) that VIT was the main stat for Glad/Pali - was I wrong about this?
I'm suddenly not sure what kind of stat build I should be aiming at by lvl 50 Pali D:

I would do Vit till you hit around 7500 health (7500 health you can withstand just about any hit in the game) and then work on STR.

While figuring out how YOU want to build it, focus on enmity building stats because you'll need it until you're a solid ilvl. You have plenty of natural mitigation with your tank gear, but if you can't hold aggro it'll cause problems. When you get higher up, make sure you're meeting accuracy caps for whatever content you're working on without over-stacking accuracy, and otherwise keep reading up on various opinions of PLD builds.

I myself recommend having both a more DPS-oriented gearset and a mitigation-focused gearset.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saseal

Hmm, new to tanking also, so I also have a question -

I was under the impression (maybe I'm working with very old knowledge) that VIT was the main stat for Glad/Pali - was I wrong about this?
I'm suddenly not sure what kind of stat build I should be aiming at by lvl 50 Pali D:

---

You should definitely be building VIT for your PLD until you hit 50 and are at least moderately well geared. At which point you can always respec if you want. It's easy, and pretty much free, only costing some GC seals.
Personally, I have an all-vit PLD and WAR, but my WAR uses the Wave axe (CRIT/DET) and my PLD novus has its stats split between Parry and Det, with a little accuracy in there, and I don't have any trouble holding hate on most people even in all VIT gear. I also have a full i100 set of STR accessories to use in instances where I don't need all the HP.
Some of these instances include dungeon bosses and HM primals, mostly.

Really, you can split your stats any way you want between VIT and STR and still be a good tank. As long as you're not putting the points into something silly like INT, MND, or Piety.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saseal

I was under the impression (maybe I'm working with very old knowledge) that VIT was the main stat for Glad/Pali - was I wrong about this?

---

No, you're not wrong. It is the most important but there's a nuance to it that gets missed. Strength is also very useful for tanks as the damage they do is not insignificant and matters to their primary function of holding hate on enemies. VIT, especially when you out-gear content, can be "wasted". If you only ever lose 3k hp you don't need a 10k buffer. Strength will always add to your dps. To change the saying up a bit: You won't lose your job for carrying nothing but vit. You will, however, miss out on an opportunity to do a bit better.

When you're leveling there's no need for carrying a ton of vit around as bonus. Things just don't hit that hard and using the bonus points for strength helps you do things more quickly and hold hate against level-synced players. Make sure you've got a decent weapon and keep pretty current on the gear that carries defense and you're fine when you're leveling.
Once you hit 50, though, you open up a bunch of stuff where having the vit could really help you at lower ilevels so you should probably swap that strength to vit. If you're stepping immediately into i110ish you can easily stay 30 strength for basically anything. (And it's advantageous to use the bonus to gain strength first before swapping accessories. Accessories carry more points of vit than strength on them).

Bonus swaps are very cheap now so mess around with it.

Honestly the biggest piece of non-obvious advice is that flash enmity scales with your weapon damage. Tanks are the most gear-dependent of the roles; the better you're geared the easier your healer will have it, freeing them to DPS more if you're as geared as you can be. So more than anyone else, keep your gear up to date, especially your weapon and especially when you'll be on the lower end of the level curve for a dungeon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alistaire

Honestly the biggest piece of non-obvious advice is that flash enmity scales with your weapon damage. Tanks are the most gear-dependent of the roles; the better you're geared the easier your healer will have it, freeing them to DPS more if you're as geared as you can be. So more than anyone else, keep your gear up to date, especially your weapon and especially when you'll be on the lower end of the level curve for a dungeon.

---

Another less-obvious tip, damage mitigation buffs are multiplicative, not additive.
So if you have Shield Oath on (20%), and use Rampart (20%), you're not mitigating 40% of the damage, you're mitigating around 36%. So if you're going to pop a bunch of defense buffs, try to use buffs with effects that don't directly stack, like Rampart + Convalescence + Bulwark, or Sentinel + Foresight + Awareness. This will let you get the most out of each individual buff. If you really need to mitigate as much damage as possible, just keep in mind that when you're using Shield Oath (20%) + Rampart (20%) + Sentinel (40%), you're not mitigating 80%, you're mitigating 61.6%. Here's the math:

100 - (100 * .2) = 80 - Shield Oath
80 - (80 * .2) = 64 - Rampart
64 - (64 * .4) = 38.4 - Sentinel
100 - 38.4 = 61.6

The general formula is x - (x * y) = z, where as x = the incoming damage, y = the percentage mitigation (per buff) as a decimal, z = the resulting amount of damage you're actually taking.
So you plug in 100 for x, 20 for y (Shield Oath), and the result, z, is 80.
Then you plug in 80 for x, 20 for y (Rampart), and the result, z, is 64.
Then you just keep repeating for as many buffs as you need to math out

Great, thanks for the infos! Super useful, from all of you!

I stepped into Copperbell NM last night - I was wishing my damndest for the mentioned STR (ninja + poetics BLM combo nightmare >___< No amount of flashing could save some instances). I'm going to start adding more STR for a while since, as mentioned, I'll probably be out-geared by the majority of the pugged DPS/Healers while leveling to 50. x_x

Ninja + BLM seems to be the hardest party to keep aggro from. Mostly because you can't let up on the ninja's target for long at all, or they'll grab your aggro, and a BLM is dropping AOE everywhere.

Provoke had a huge range so use it to pull patrolling enemies (read: Aevis in Stone Vigil). Some patrols hit like a truck so ideally you want to be tanking them individually.

40s cooldown really is nothing so you can afford to use it on every patrol. I found 60s to be the golden standard for 'once per every trash pull'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thistledown

Provoke had a huge range so use it to pull patrolling enemies (read: Aevis in Stone Vigil). Some patrols hit like a truck so ideally you want to be tanking them individually.

40s cooldown really is nothing so you can afford to use it on every patrol. I found 60s to be the golden standard for 'once per every trash pull'.

---

Another thing you should keep in mind about provoke is that it matches your aggro to the current highest aggro and then gives you an infinitesimal amount of enmity on top of that, so if you provoke something, just keep in mind that the moment anyone does any action at all, from auto attacking to using buffs, you will lose aggro if you don't generate more.
Also, if you're looking to rip hate off of other tanks, build up to Rage of Halone, provoke, then use Rage of Halone to help keep aggro.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PWilson

Ninja + BLM seems to be the hardest party to keep aggro from. Mostly because you can't let up on the ninja's target for long at all, or they'll grab your aggro, and a BLM is dropping AOE everywhere.

---

When you say "the ninja's target" vs BLM AoE...NIN should be doing their AoE "rotation" (quotes cause it's a rather simple setup) on 3+ targets. Since most pulls in dungeons will do that, I'd feel free to ask the NIN why he's not doing his 100 potency per target Death Blossom (so 300 potency per gcd on 3 mobs) vs his average 220 ish potency per gcd on the single target rotation. You only go to single-target moves if you're nearly out of tp.

I have some questions, some are not entirely related to the question, but it's what I've found while playing as tank in low-level dungeons (keep in mind i'm only level 25 so the highest i've been in is the mandatory Ifrit battle)

1. Can you interrupt a combo with abilities? or does that only apply to provoke? up till now i've been conscious of not breaking combos. i don't have rage of halone yet

2. This is more relevant. I've found that my gear is mostly def based, and doesn't have vit bonus on it (im only level 25) should i invest into getting better dungeon gear so as to last longer (more hp) I was intending just to go through with the storyline missions, and then focus on gear when I'm 50. Alsowhat's the best way to get higher level stuff? (20-25)

Thank you for your advice here, it's made things simpler for me, unfortunately i haven't been very good at it up till now

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pforpianist

-

---

1. Sort of, yes. As a tank, you have your main 1 2 3 combo, but then there's other combo skills you can use. If you use those, you can break the combo. I also believe Shield Bash breaks the combo but I'm not 100% on that because I never actually paid close attention to it. Now, buffs and off GCD skills, such as Rampart, or Circle of Scorn/Spirits Within, and I believe Flash do not break combo.
Of course, you can always try it out on the dummies right outside Ul Dah in West Thanalan.

2. While you're leveling your tank, try to just invest in gear that is only equippable by GLA/PLD MRD/WAR. This is assuming you feel like you need more VIT and Defense. It'll be labeled as such, and there is new tank gear sets available to you every fifth level. I personally upgraded every fifth level while leveling my tanks because I was able to craft my gear which made it very cheap. To get these sets, you can either purchase them off the marketboard, or ask for an Armorer to craft it for you and bring them the materials and then tip them. The latter is usually much cheaper and it makes getting HQ gear much easier.

Yes, shield bash breaks combo. Shield Swipe does not. Abilities that are not on GCD do not break combos. Flash also does not break combos. Overpower does.

And for #2 gear that says gld/pld/mrd/war/lnc/drg is great as well as long as its defense and magic defense are equal. Basically, they gave DRG some of the tank-caliber gear. When you see the magic defense lower than defense, that's not tank gear, both those defenses will be under tank gear in those cases.

Use provoke and then spam your enmity moves on the enemies those dps tank wannabees are attacking.
But mostly, play your way as a tank, it's nice to take advice but if you base your entire play style on the common tank tactics and stats, it's not particularly fun or rewarding, tank your way, still take in advice but tank the way you want to tank, which is my advice.

Your combo will be interrupted by anything on gcd pretty much. Flash is an exception but I hear Sword/Shield Oath will.

So do your 1-2-3, but if you feel your healer will draw extra hate then feel free to Flash in between witbout interruption. You can also always switch target mid-combo and hit a mob with, say, your 2 and then go back to 3 your main target.

Remember you don't have to stick with your first target to its death; once you feel confident that next gcd will finish it off, switch to your next target.

Hey guys, just saw this and thought I'd ask some questions of my own. I just today (before the game went down) got WAR and PAL. Both are lvl 32 right now, and I feel like these jobs just got confusing with my more recent abilities. And I get nervous in dungeons playing tank as it is.

On Paladin, I tried out a few FATEs and just messed around with hunting log targets and noticed that there was times where Shield Swipe was up A LOT. If this is will be the case for dungeons, when do I use it and when do I keep my combo going instead?

On Warrior, I think I understand the Wrath system, but if I understand right I have no way to use it until the level 35 job quest. Is this right or not?

For both: I have all my other jobs capped. What cross-class abilities do I need to start with, and then add at 40 and 50? I never could figure this out on MRD and GLA and I'm still not sure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zthebadger

Use provoke and then spam your enmity moves on the enemies those dps tank wannabees are attacking.
But mostly, play your way as a tank, it's nice to take advice but if you base your entire play style on the common tank tactics and stats, it's not particularly fun or rewarding, tank your way, still take in advice but tank the way you want to tank, which is my advice.

---

No. No no no no no. "Use provoke" should almost never be the first thing a tank does. Provoke does not generate threat. Provoke leapfrog's everyone else's. It's to be saved for when someone pulls hate.

And when you're finally comfortable that nobody will pull hate off you, then you can start using it for its higher range to pull, the few times that's even beneficial.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alistaire

No. No no no no no. "Use provoke" should almost never be the first thing a tank does. Provoke does not generate threat. Provoke leapfrog's everyone else's. It's to be saved for when someone pulls hate.

And when you're finally comfortable that nobody will pull hate off you, then you can start using it for its higher range to pull, the few times that's even beneficial.

---

The OP talked about getting hate back from someone that pulled it. So when badger said to provoke and build aggro on the mob that the DPS-tank was on, he'd need that aggro leapfrog.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ninster

Hey guys, just saw this and thought I'd ask some questions of my own. I just today (before the game went down) got WAR and PAL. Both are lvl 32 right now, and I feel like these jobs just got confusing with my more recent abilities. And I get nervous in dungeons playing tank as it is...

---

Can't speak to the Warrior. As PLD, I don't use Shield Swipe much. It doesn't generate aggro and I usually don't have too much of a cushion to spend on moves that don't generate emnity, at the moment. Before ninjas were in the game, I'd use it now and then. The Pacification is a nice effect, but the real value of it is the super low TP cost and high damage. 210 potency is your second most damaging skill, and it's just on GCD instead of the looong CD of Spirits Within. You shouldn't really rely on it in order to use the Pacification, because of course the randomness of when its up often means it isn't up when you'd need it - stick to Shield Bash instead.
It's super great for your solo content though, and you should use it whenever it is up.

The Cross-Class abilities you want as PLD is Stoneskin and Foresight. You shouldn't need Protect. Raise sounds super useful, right? No can do, you won't be able to use it during combat. Cure can be useful, but be aware it doesn't actually heal much, ever, because your mind stat is super low. But beneficially, it will help you keep aggro. There's honestly not really a point to taking Skull Sunder or Fracture. Mercy Stroke and Bloodbath can be useful, though.
As a WAR, you want Flash and Provoke, and three of: Featherfoot, Convalescence, Second Wind, or Mantra. You may also want to consider Awareness or Internal Release in certain instances.

Flash and number your kill order til you get Shield Oath. And only use Riot Blade combo when you're out of flash. When you're down to 1-2 enemies, you may proceed to using your Rage of Halone combo. Congratz, you're a Gladiator. Oh, and you can pop cooldowns (Rampart for example) every now and then too.

I didn't say use provoke FIRST, I said use provoke. That's why I specifically said "on the enemies those dps tank wannabees are attacking", I know fully well what provoke does, and that's why I said when your allies have pulled enmity from you, I did certainly NOT say, it should be the first thing a tank does, nor did I even imply it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GeekMatt

The OP talked about getting hate back from someone that pulled it. So when badger said to provoke and build aggro on the mob that the DPS-tank was on, he'd need that aggro leapfrog.

---

See, lala gets me :3 thank you Matt :3

These threads make me glad I grew up Paladin. As someone who mains tank but also plays EVERYTHING else, I am pleased when I see people trying out this class for the first time. First, because I don't remember my job being so hard at the young level. Second, because it makes me realize how delusional I must have been back then to think my first thought now. Tanks have gotten massive increases in their enmity generation recently that it makes me question how I ever survived as a pre-50 paladin or warrior.Anyways, I have to agree AND disagree with the comment to just let someone die for being a 'l33t' idiot. Instead, I'd like to cut the middle ground here. If this is a big mob pull (2 or 3 mobs really at pre 50), and you lose 1 mob to a dps who it just tunnel visioning, there are usually only three possible scenarios that this happens. 1. They attacked a mob during your pull that had no agro to you, so of course you lost agro before you could ever even establish it. 2. They stole agro while you weren’t focused on the target they are tunnel visioning on. 3. They stole agro, even while you are doing your hardest to maintain enmity on that target, and things just aren’t working.

In scenario 1, shame on the dps, but all hope is not lost. First, take a moment to make sure that the mobs that did come to you after your pull are properly focused on you, then consider your options on the stray. Provoke, Savage Blade/Rage of Halone combo, whatever. Just make sure first and foremost that the main group still on you are properly handled. 99.99% of the time, your healer can handle a stray mob that a dps stole, so don’t freak out. Just be sure, as with any and all dungeons, that your healer is properly commended.

In scenario 2, do mostly the same as scenario 1. IF you just happened to lose agro to another dps, don’t freak out, it happens, especially before Rage of Halone and Shield Oath. Make sure the rest of the mobs are being properly handled, and then lay out considerations for the stray. Provoke, Shield Lob, Savage Blade/Rage or Halone, take your pick. But again, your healer is YOUR partner in this. The DPS are really just passengers, and your healer, as always, deserves your commendation.

In scenario 3, there really isn’t a whole lot you can do if you’re just completely unable to regain agro despite exhausting all your tricks. So, in the end, cut your losses and maintain order in what you can. AGAIN, your healer is your friend, and JUST for keeping you alive deserves your commendation.

So what ARE some tricks to regaining agro on a lost mob? Provoke definitely gets thrown out there a lot. However, to properly use the skill, you have to know how it works. Imagine the enmity meters as a pressure system using water. When your enmity is full, all the water is on your meter, meaning you have all the water. Now, to maintain that full, you have to maintain a higher pressure than the other people in your party. This is what increased enmity allows you to do. Now, when a dps take agro away from you on a mob, that means their pressure is now higher than the pressure you exerted on that mob. So what provoke does is allows you to copy that pressure and then boost it by just a hair. This means, you get the mob’s attention, but only just. In order to maintain that attention, you will have to increase the pressure further. This is why provoke alone is not enough and must be paired with another skill to really work. If a mob is at range, the skill of choice is usually Shield Lob, meaning a Paladin will use Provoke then immediately after use Shield Lob. However, the ultimate range enmity increasing combination is Fight or Flight, Provoke, Shield Lob, due to Fight or Flight’s increase in damage done (Not to be mistaken for an increase in JUST melee damage). For this reason, I suggest always trying to open fights with Fight of Flight (to establish enmity quickly) as well as trying to save it for if/when you might lose enmity on a target so as to not just re-establish enmity, but also solidify it. Generally speaking, a 30% (traited Fight or Flight) boost in damage output for 30 seconds will usually help when you’re an under geared tank going up against dps with superior gear, so always, ALWAYS, remember the cooldowns at your disposal.

Also, can anyone tell me, as I haven’t tested it yet, does the healing from Bloodbath cause enmity? I usually open many fights with Fight or Flight + Bloodbath (as a small bit of mitigation to begin things, plus they are both on 90 second cooldowns, and Fight or Flight increases the healing done as well).

bloodbath is very negligible for enmity gain
short of over power spam (in which case you'll be warrior anyway and hold all the things) it won't put out significant enough heals compared to the damage the mob is taking

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GeekMatt

The OP talked about getting hate back from someone that pulled it. So when badger said to provoke and build aggro on the mob that the DPS-tank was on, he'd need that aggro leapfrog.

---

Right. I see that now, my bad. Carry on. I guess I've developped a habit of skimming stuff on here.