WHM vs. SCH - Which has the highest DPS?

I have joined some groups where they have one of the healers DPS for a certain portion of the fight, while the other one single heals. Most time its usually the SCH that does the DPS, but ive been in groups where they have the WHM be the one.

I was a bit cruious about this. Having both classes equally geared, which one would have a higher DPS output?

http://xivreborn.com/gen/Sylphiel_Ne...ar_Classes.jpg

In ideal world, on single target it is scholar, and whm is better at aoe dmg.
However whm suffers from at least 2major drawbacks:
1. Limited mana regen, while its best dmg skill holy consumes crazy amount of mana.
2. Accuracy issue, whm has a high miss rate dpsing in coil with normal healer gear, while 3of scholar's dmg skills are guaranteed hit.

A scholars damage over time spells push out a higher amount of potency in a single spell, so if its a situation where you have only a few casts to spare in between healing, the scholar will push out damage more effectively just because of that.

I knew that WHMs have better AoE, but I was wondering how they stacked up for single target.

Thanks for the feedback though, I completely forgot to take accuracy and mana regen issues into consideration.

I usually WHM raids so outside of dungeons I dont do much DPS :P

WHMs are better in situation with quick AoE burst. Sch wins in everything else DPS-wise. In fights its better to have SCH doing the DPS. The SCH can lustrate in Cleric as well.

For sure sch wins at single targeting but ok this is OT i h8 ppl who plays healers as dps. Its unnatural.

When running expert or hard mode roulettes as a sch I can sometimes pull in "almost" as much damage as our dps classes. Depending on tanks gear and the dps dodging aoes, ect.

No idea if whms can do the same though.

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Originally Posted by Eraqus

but ok this is OT i h8 ppl who plays healers as dps. Its unnatural.

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In this game healer DPS is part of normal, expected gameplay. It's what you use your GCDs for at times that they are not required for direct heals (e.g. incoming damage is minimal, blocked, or healed satisfactorily by a SCH fairy or a ticking Regen).

But yes, SCH wins the sustained DPS race without question. Specifically in AoE, Holy provides the best burst, but the resource cost limits its application.

I agree with Eraqus. However, sometimes we have to go against the natural order. I was helping in a Titan HM all the dps got knocked off the ledge but one. She had been raised several times and couldn't servive more than a couple stomps. It was me a SCH, WHM, PLD, and a WAR left. Sure, we could have wiped but I decided to go dps and let the WHM heal with a Eos for backup. It worked out just fine.

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Originally Posted by mdha02

I agree with Eraqus. However, sometimes we have to go against the natural order. I was helping in a Titan HM all the dps got knocked off the ledge but one. She had been raised several times and couldn't servive more than a couple stomps. It was me a SCH, WHM, PLD, and a WAR left. Sure, we could have wiped but I decided to go dps and let the WHM heal with a Eos for backup. It worked out just fine.

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Titan HM is an easy example of a fight where healers can provide supporting DPS since they can simply do so between Tumults and Geoshocks as no one besides the tank should be taking damage otherwise.

If the party knows the script, stance-dance during the entire fight to help complete it faster.

If the party does not know the script, they will get themselves killed regardless of how you try to heal them as they run through multiple bombs, stand in Weight of the Land, or get knocked off by Landslide. Once they're suffering from Brink of Death or have been removed from gameplay, you no longer need to worry about healing their mistakes.

Actually I think I was wrong. Whm has higher DMG output even on single target (again assuming ideal world). Within every GCD:
WHM: Aero (25) + Aero II (40) + Stone II (170) = 235 Potency
SCH: Bio (40) + Bio II (35) + Miasma (35) + SF (25) + RuinII (80) = 215 Potency

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Originally Posted by RoseM

Actually I think I was wrong. Whm has higher DMG output even on single target (again assuming ideal world). Within every GCD:
WHM: Aero (25) + Aero II (40) + Stone II (170) = 235 Potency
SCH: Bio (40) + Bio II (35) + Miasma (35) + SF (25) + RuinII (80) = 215 Potency

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You're forgetting Aero; most SCHs will cross-class it. Also potentially Energy Drain, stacks permitting.

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Originally Posted by RoseM

Actually I think I was wrong. Whm has higher DMG output even on single target (again assuming ideal world). Within every GCD:
WHM: Aero (25) + Aero II (40) + Stone II (170) = 235 Potency
SCH: Bio (40) + Bio II (35) + Miasma (35) + SF (25) + RuinII (80) = 215 Potency

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Your math is a bit off. Aero has a hit potency of 50 + 6 ticks of 25 = . Aero II has a hit potency of 50 + 4 ticks of 40.
For WHM single target DPS potential:
Aero (200) + Aero II (210) + Stone II (170) = 580 Potency
For SCH single target DPS potential (corrected math for DoT potency):
Bio (240) + Bio II (350) + Miasma (300) + Shadow Flare (250) + Ruin (80) + Energy Drain (150) + Aero (if CC'd, 200)= 1570

SCH are undisputed kings of ST damage as a healer.

Now AoE potential is trickier because the damage increases as more enemies are affected by it. Bane can spread SCH dots to 3 additional targets (4 enemies total). If we were to use 4 enemies in our calculations.

WHM AoE potential:
Holy (200 x 4) = 800 Potency
SCH AoE potential:
Bio (960) + Bio II (1400) + Miasma (1200) + Miasma II (280) + Shadow Flare (1000) + Blizzard II (if CC'd, 200) = 5040

Of course we also have to adjust all our numbers because you can't compare total DoT potential to Burst potential unless you look at Burst potential over the same period of time the DoTs tick
For example, each DoT ticks at 3 second intervals (right now anyway). The shortest DoT for SCH is Miasma II which will tick 5 times total before needing to be refreshed. To make the math easier, we can say SCH DPS is highest for 5 of the DoT ticks when doing AoE damage. So SCH total AoE DPS for 5 DoT ticks plus 7 casts of Blizzard II (what you can spam during DoTs) on 4 mobs is 4460. In the same amount of time, a WHM can spam Holy 6 times using Presence of Mind. On 4 mobs that's a total of 4800 potential. Without Presence of Mind a WHM can spam 4 Holys (3 second cast + 1 second animation) in 15 seconds, which comes to 3200 potency.

We can do the same for ST damage as well. Over 18 seconds a SCH can dish out 1480. A WHM can deal 1600. So while SCH excel overall in longer fights, they lack in shorter fights that don't allow full uptime on DoTs (which is true for every DoT-based class in MMO history).

In summary we can safely say that, when there's between 1 - 5 enemies, SCH has superior DPS. However, because Bane has a target limit (and using it twice means RNG might screw you over), WHM DPS becomes much greater the more enemies are near you. At 6+ enemies WHM Holy spam starts to triumph in DPS. The major drawback is that WHM will not have the MP to sustain that kind of DPS over a long fight, and ultimately the SCH will pull ahead.


To shorten this into a handy chart

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                1 enemy    2 - 5 enemies      6+ enemies
            ---------------------------------------------------
short fight |      WHM          SCH              WHM
long fight  |      SCH          SCH              SCH

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Aren't we gonna heal?

While it's alright to look at it from a numerical perspective, I think the most important things (for single-target DPS on raid encounters) are these:

1) SCH has better flexibility to DPS due to Lustrate and the fairie.
2) WHM off-DPS is MP-intensive and cannot be kept up in non-trivial/non-farm content with moderate healing requirements. If kept up at the max DPS-potential, the WHM will end up crippled in terms of MP.
3) A WHM has only two dots at their disposal and spamming Stone II is very expensive. To keep up the DPS in a decent enough fashion, a WHM will need to keep up spamming Stones. Thus, as a result all of their GCDs are spent on DPSing.

Of course, the same thing can be said about SCH DPS for #3 in situations where a SCH has the availability to truly max their DPS, ie. spamming Ruins on top of dot refreshing, but not only does the SCH have the fairy and the oGCD Lustrates, but a SCH can also keep up a respectable enough DPS-pace up while having way more downtime from the GCDs spent on DPS alone, if they can't fully maximize DPS via Ruin spamming.

Ie. a SCH who simply puts up all their dots and refreshes them when they can do so, will be able to keep a decent enough DPS-flow up while also not using the dot-tick time into DPSing. If a WHM does the same thing, their Aeros are not going to take them to the moon, with the dots also needing to be refreshed often. 12s/18s dots vs. 18-30s dots of the SCH. Sure, that is better than having no DPS whatsoever, but yeah.

So when you add up all these factors together, a SCH just has an easier time stance dancing, occasionally healing in Cleric Stance (Lustrate, fairy spam), on top of the lower MP-cost of the SCH DPS skills, especially when combined with Energy Drain for further DPS and MP-regen synergizing and the SCH naturally having better MP-sustainability.

The icing on the cake is the fact that Bios and Shadow Flare can't miss, so this makes it easier for even the SCHs who do not stack accuracy.

Simply tallying up potency doesn't really tell the whole picture, from my experience it's pretty clean cut:

With Aero and Cleric Stance loaded, SCH is a monster in low level duty, at certain levels it's pretty easy to top the DPS whilst healing assuming the tank can hold agro.

Holy's stun coupled with the fact that stuff dies fast has WHM leading the way on 4 man trash pulls in Expert grade dutys assuming 2+ packs are pulled each time. On a regular 3 mob pull it's about even with the SCH pulling ahead if the rest of the DPS is slow.

SCH DPS makes a lot more sense in Coil for the reasons already given, not so dependant on accuracy, ease of movement and the ability to still pitch in some healing whilst DPSing = SCH wins this one. Whilst WHM's can push out modest numbers in old coil turns, it's an uphill struggle by comparison.

Numbers are so terribly wrong in this topic, it's giving me terminal diseases. Especially from this post:

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Originally Posted by Velox

Your math is a bit off. Aero has a hit potency of 50 + 6 ticks of 25 = . Aero II has a hit potency of 50 + 4 ticks of 40.
For WHM single target DPS potential: WALL-O-TEXT

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For starters: Why are the potencies tallied up like all the damage is tallied up in a single moment?
Secondly: Why are all DoTs applied instantly according to those numbers?
Thirdly: Why is everything only cast once? That's 3 spells vs 7 spells.
Lastly: Bane only hits up to three targets, not four!

Whatever was worth mentioning concerning whm dps and sch dps for both casual and endgame content has been mentioned before.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

For starters: Why are the potencies tallied up like all the damage is tallied up in a single moment?

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Because a healer does not dps full time. Typically you only switch into cleric stance for a few casts, then go back to healing. So while the damage is done over time, for purposes of comparison its simpler to just include the full damage rather than the per tick damage.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Thirdly: Why is everything only cast once? That's 3 spells vs 7 spells.

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Between the fairy and lustrate, a scholar would have a little more breathing room to get all their dots out. And as stated above, they're not doing this full time but in short bursts. For this reason, I also wouldn't count more than one or two casts of Stone or Ruin.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Lastly: Bane only hits up to three targets, not four!

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It hits three targets, but requires a fourth target already dotted to spread from. The proper calculation would account for the dot timers already running on the first target; the three baned targets don't receive the full dot timers. In that case you would also need to account for ability to cast without dodging or being interrupted, cast order, and latency--for myself if I use bane right away, the last dot never transfers. And then there's the additional effect on bane where you actually do transfer the full duration. It's a messy calculation, but Velox's is close enough for a simple comparison.

Yeah funny, person saying math wrong, gets math horribly wrong.

Assuming long duration parses for ST and 2.5 cast times for simplicity. Also assuming hit cap (simple to get with crafted gear/acc). Leaving out auto attacks and potent poisons, Pom, mind pot ect.

Will use 108 seconds as approximation for whm
6 Aero = (50 +25x6)x6 = 1200
9 Aero 2 = (50+40x4)x9 = 1890
28 Stone 2 = 170 x 28 = 4,760
3 Fluid Aura = 150 x 3 = 450
Total 108 second potency = about 8300 / 108 = or close to 76.9 potency per second.

Now SCH is a lot more complicated, because the rotation easily clips itself so the ideal varies per time to great extents.
So graph of comparisons of opening rotations.
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...ound38/SCH.jpg

So yeah SCH is better.... barely and only assuming no POM and the sch is front loading aether stacks for edrain ( not sustainable for long duration obv.) However, If neither of you are hit capped sch is obviously far better though because of the 3 dots that have 100% accuracy. The reality is the ideal is both classes cap accuracy and maintain dots, while leaving healing to the least GCD for the situation, and maintaining the required mana efficiency for the whole duration of the fight. For example if it takes only takes 1 medica 2 to outheal the aoe... the whm should do that instead of the SCH wasting time succor spamming. Same for adlo or regen vs alternatives.

It is an absurdly complicated subject and varies on the healers gear, the amount and type of healing to be done, the dps needed to influence the fight, the amount of targets.... Almost no 2 fights draw the same conclusions.

But its fun to discuss anyway.
I also do not think it is coincidence they are so close, SE uses very good math to keep the classes balanced and it makes sense for solo play for them to be similar.

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Originally Posted by Pells

Snip

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You didn't get the point, Staris did, luckily.

Bio 2, miasma, bio, aero and bam you have one died enemy....i miss thunder for SMN ;_;

Very interesting topic!
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Damage Over Time vs. Burst Damage

Fights Scholar has higher DPS:

1. All Bosses

Fights White Mage has higher DPS:

1. Every dungeon run ever
2. Mobs of 3+
3. 80% of the game

You can only say 6+ mobs SCH > WHM when the only person doing damage is the Healer. :|
No AoE pull lasts more than 30.
You can apply 1 set of DoT's with 1 Bane.
Holy is King.

WHM = Speedruns
SCH = Bosses

From a WHM perspective: Behind every Scholar who does outstanding DPS is an outstanding healing WHM in Raids :P

Was running ST all of yesterday evening...

*I DO NOT USE A PARSER* (Couldn't if I wanted to... PS4 ftw)

First pull: 1100 [WHM]
2nd Highest DPS: 800 [SMN]
(Numbers generously donated by a random player)

[Swiftcast]
[Holy]
[Presence of Mind]
[Holy]
(Until PoM wears off)
[Shroud of Saints]
[Holy]

^Is literally THE strongest AoE rotation in the game.
...Until Mana runs out.

During the boss phases though... even with 100% DPS 0% Healing, I could only reach 150-200.

90% Weaker than my AoE rotation!