[Lore Guys!] Garlean Race Question & Hidden Castrum in Coerthas

So, I've been pondering over this and trying to think of the best way to ask, because no matter how much I hunt around-- I can't seem to find the answer. So let us start with the first question - Garlean's Third Eye

My speculation by the equipment the Scions wear and Cid's "idle" joke to you, is that the Third eye can "see", but see in the way not like we "see". That said, the speculation is that Garlean's third eye allows them to maybe see the aetheric flow itself and that is why Gaius makes the comments he does in 1.0 when you and the scions faced him.

Maybe this is also why they can't use the aether, because somehow the gift in seeing it, prevents them from using it. However, I could be /way/ off and that is why I am /really/ curious as to what is up with the Third Eye.

(See next post for the Castrum, cause 1000 word limit is a pain)

Now the second one is really simply. What is what that Castrum in Coerthas? More importantly-- what is its name? If you have really good settings and its a clear day, you can see it off in the distance from that one tower where the npc says, "No one could survive that fall.." (or something like that). I think I have a screenshot of it, but I really love to know what that Castrum is called.

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Koti

1000 word limit is a pain

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You can circumvent it by typing everything you want to and copying it, then posting EDIT INCOMING, and then editing your post and pasting. Just make sure you don't accidentally copy over the copy or you're screwed, lol.

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Originally Posted by Koti

Garlean's Third Eye

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We know next to nothing about the third eye, really. It's only even been mentioned two or three times, that I know of, and neither referred to its actual effects. Cid says that perhaps his own third eye helped him realize who you are, but it sounds more like a sentiment than a theory. Likewise, an Eorzean claims that Garleans implant magitek into their bodies and have a third eye that sees in all directions at once. Either could be true, or they could be tales of boogeymen spread by laymen among the invaded. Who knows!

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Originally Posted by Koti

What is what that Castrum in Coerthas?

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The model is an exact match for Castrum Marinum, which lies in the sea between Thanalan (where Ul'dah is) and Vylbrand (where Limsa is), but if you look at where you're standing and what way you're looking, it really doesn't seem to be in the right direction or at the right distance. It's possible that there's a second base that looks just like Marinum in every way except lies in the Coerthas Western Highlands. There's no evidence either way, so pick whichever theory you like better and call it a guess, for now, lol.

Oh, I know. My friend asked me about the Castrum and he said it looks like the same as you said. I told him to check his map, pointing out that exact same deal regarding the directions. Which is why I keep staring at my map, at it, and squinting at Ishgard with their new Magitek weaponry that they DID NOT HAVE back in 1.0. They are not helping my under the table theory in, haha.

Though for both however, its kinda why I was hoping to get the Lore Mod's attention, cause I know the man has the answer-- even if its just "Stay tuned for 3.0!".

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Originally Posted by Koti

I told him to check his map, pointing out that exact same deal regarding the directions.

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You piqued my curiosity, so I decided to go back up there and take a better look at it with fresh eyes. Using the region maps instead of the zone maps, you can tell that you're looking towards the silhouette southwest across the Yafaem Saltmoor and into the Straight of Merlthor. The angle lands a bit north of where I remembered Marinum being, so I went back down to Cape Westwind - turns out facing Marinum from there requires more of a northwest angle than I remembered. Funny enough, trying to look back at Coerthas, the open sea goes on a lot farther east than I'd expect.

It's all well within the range of "Eh, close enough," though. The silhouette is definitely bigger than you'd expect it to be, given the distance, but trying to maintain the points of view inside of several discrete zones any better than they are now sounds like kind of a nightmare. It'd be impossible to scale the points of view in a way that convincingly reflects the truths that Aldenard is a continent and the zone you just chocobo'd across in 5 minutes was a sizeable chunk of a visible region of that continent. Given all that, I think the zone artist was just trying to show you that the Coerthas Highlands are high enough that you can see over all the mountains to the sea from there. All the parts of the shape are the same - the teleport ring, the airship dock on the right, even the pattern of docked juggernauts spiraling up the left side of the silhouette. Gonna throw my lot in with the Marinum theorists.

Third eye, though? I still got nothin'.

Although I'm going to also throw my support behind that mysterious Garlean castrum being just Castrum Marinium with bad depth of field, but then I remembered this piece of concept art from before launch:

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...rlean_Base.jpg

Which looks suspiciously like Castrum Marinium (complete with the teleporter to Cape Westwind where you fight Rhiatayn!), yet it's clearly in a desert/mountainous area. Of course concept art is just that, a concept that is still in planning and development, but it does start to make one wonder about the mysterious castrum seen from Coerthas. ;)

The castrum in Coerthas looks way too high up to be Marinium, it's likely that Marinium isn't a unique structure, and that a lot of Castrum outposts look similar. The only other Castrum's we've seen have basically been thrown together with bits of magitek walls and walkways.

http://i.imgur.com/1EzMjkVl.jpg

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Originally Posted by Chewy2nd

The castrum in Coerthas looks way too high up to be Marinium, it's likely that Marinium isn't a unique structure, and that a lot of Castrum outposts look similar. The only other Castrum's we've seen have basically been thrown together with bits of magitek walls and walkways.

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Went on a little adventure to finally check this out for myself. I agree; Castrum Marinum is at sea level and the Castrum in the picture is on top of a mountain so they cannot possibly be the same. And, while I can understand *some* depth of field errors/exaggerations, the map designers have been pretty good about keeping it close. That one looks like if Coerthas West was open then we'd be able to walk there.

Throwing my lot in with "3.0: Please look forward to it."

They're two different Castrums. Almost all Castrums are designed like that - some of just don't noticed because we've only ever been to Castrum Meridianum and The Praetorium which is basically the main fortress of the Empire thus it looks different and fitted by walls and force fields.

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Originally Posted by kyrios91

Almost all Castrums are designed like that - some of just don't noticed because we've only ever been to Castrum Meridianum and The Praetorium which is basically the main fortress of the Empire thus it looks different and fitted by walls and force fields.

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There's really no evidence for this, to be completely honest. We've been to many, many Castrums.

First, there was Castrum Novum back during 1.0, the ruins of which they built Castrum Centri both around and through. Both of those were/are large sprawling complexes. Then you have Castrum Oriens, which is located in the shroud. We don't exactly know what the Castrum looks like beyond the massive wall they've constructed, but I'd be willing to bet that it's another large fortress situated on the ground. Of course, there's Castrum Meridianum, which is the largest Castrum we've seen to date and also home to the Praetorium.

Castrum Marinum is the only castrum we've seen of it's kind outside of the suppoed one in Coerthas, so claiming they almost all are designed that way is a huge shot in the dark. That's one (possibly two) Castrums out of six total in-game. It's far from the majority.

Also, something to take note of is the fact that the shape of Castrum Marinum isn't entirely man-made. It's built into and around a naturally existing rock spire that was sitting out in the ocean.
http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/...1.png~original

In line with that, it makes you ponder what the Castrum in Coerthas is built around if it is in fact it's own separate castrum, because it also has the same un-even spire poking out the top. Seems very strange to have a pillar-like rock formation randomly sticking out of the top of some mountain.
http://i.imgur.com/AyI599j.png

I guess it's just a mistake, like the cannon not being in the right direction to shoot in FF7 .

Yeah, more and more that's what I'm thinking too, given the fact there are a few other (albeit more smaller and minor) examples of mistakes in the environment/field maps if you know where to loo.

Like the book buried in the mantlepiece timbers inside the tavern at the Observatorium, the infamous 'floating bottle of Pearl Lane' in Ul'dah, and the equally infamous 'stonework of unequal lengths' surrounding the aetheryte in Limsa, I'm just going to chalk up the mysterious Coerthas Garlean castrum up as simply one of these errors made by an overworked artist struggling to meet the launch deadline as well.

I don't know. I have a hard to believing its a mistake. Its the fact its up in the mountains like it is, and they do have the same design, but at the same time, they could have built there own pillar assembly to support it, given the bottom has a support brace which you can see in the non-silhouetted picture at the bottom.

My other reason for believing it is maybe actually /in/ Coerthas-- is because it seems a little strange that the Garleans are kinda roaming around like they do and they don't tend to roam around very far from home. :|a Given that one mission.

*shakes the lore mod* Your gonna make we wait till 3.0 for all the answers arn't you? *shaake*

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Originally Posted by Koti

it seems a little strange that the Garleans are kinda roaming around like they do

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Hold on, I'm going to need to brace myself for the physical pain of saying something this nerdy.

<shadowboxes for a few moments and takes a deep breath.> Whew, okay.

So, of the 93 varieties of Imperial troops and machina we've seen in the game so far, all of the ones in Coerthas have been from the 5th Cohort, and the 5th is garrisoned at Castrum Centri, implying they were dispatched from Mor Dhona.

EDIT: It turns out some of the ones we've seen in Coerthas were from the 3rd Cohort, usually seen in the Shroud from Castrum Oriens, except they turn up in a quest about Garleans coming from Mor Dhona, lol.

From the NPC Cailean in Monument Tower

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It seems the fate of Monument Tower is to watch the watcher. 'Twas built to guard the Fury's Gaze, and the gem beyond price hidden in its depth... And now it keeps vigil against the Garlean outpost, for the jewel that is Ishgard must never fall into the Empire's unclean hands.

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Source

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Originally Posted by Chewy2nd

From the NPC Cailean in Monument Tower

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Ready for this to get even weirder? It turns out there's a quest based around the guy who says that quote where he expands on it quite a bit. He doesn't seem to be talking about either Castrum Marinum or the hypothetical Coerthan fortress. He seems to be talking about Castrum Centri in Mor Dhona, which I don't think I can even see from up there, lol.

All three quotes from the quest Doubt Truth to Be a Liar

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Originally Posted by Cailean

From high upon Monument Tower, we keep watch over the doings of the Garlean outpost. They have been far too active for our hearts' ease lately, and we must discourage these forays without resorting to outright hostility. Make a round of the three hot spots and look for any trace of the Garleans. Ser Pierremons awaits at the Aurum Vale for your report. The speed of the Fury to you, and Her ruth as well.

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Originally Posted by Cailean

We'd espied them slipping over the border from Mor Dhona to survey something, but... These forays must be more frequent than we thought. We must increase patrols in the area. I bid you beware, adventurer, if your footloose ways lead you to Mor Dhona. Return safely, and be our eyes in the wilderness again.

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Originally Posted by Journal

• The Garlean Empire is making a long arm across the border from Mor Dhona, stirring the grass around Monument Tower. Seek traces of Garlemald in three locations, and drive away any Garleans you encounter
• Your vigilance has driven out all the Garleans in the area without a confrontation between the forces of Ishgard and Garlemald. Report to Ser Pierremons that the work is done.
• Ser Pierremons is aghast at how thick the Garleans are upon the ground. All evidence points to a Garlean outpost in Mor Dhona, a place in which even an adventurer may find it no easy task to escape deadly scrutiny...

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Moreover, the enemies turn out to be from the 3rd cohort, implying the came from Castrum Oriens, originally, lol.

I am not able to look at a map of Eorzea at the moment; however, since you said it was in a desert/mountainous area does that mean it is possible that it is a castrum located in Ala Mhigo? We do know that it is an area conquered by the Garlean Empire and also that there is a lot of pressure from certain people for the Warrior of Light to help the escaped people from there such as the Flame General reconquer it.

Probably not, simply due to the fact it's the completely opposite direction - Ala Mhigo is situated in the far east of Aldenard, on the opposite side of the continent to Coerthas and that mysterious castrum. Not to mention it was repeatedly stated time and again (in both 1.0 and ARR), that Ala Mhigo itself was turned into one giant castrum anyway. But I'm just flapping my gums here. :p

Seeing as the Castrum is visible in plain sight, I wouldn't call it hidden, but inaccessible.

That Castrum is not a mistake. There was one particular cutscene where they pointed at it during 2.4 about the dangers to come.

That Castrum is more than likely enough be dedicated to watch the Dragons. After their defeat ten years ago, it would be very wise of them to keep an eye on the Dravanian Horde's homeland.

After all, there is more to Eorzea than our city-states.

In relation to the third eye, if you look at the helmets the centurions wear as well as the tribunes and gaius's helm they seem to have a camera more or less where there third eye is, suggesting they can see through it to an extent.

Yea sorry I had no way of accessing a map of Eorzea at the time and once I had I realized my mistake. Though this does bring up an interesting question on my end. Why is Ishgard consider the Empire to not be a threat if they have a Castrum sitting either right next to or in their territory? It seems to me that it would be best to take precautions against something like that so that Ishgard isn't unprepared for the possibility of a two front war. From what I saw in the 2.4 story *spoilers if for some reason you haven't done the 2.4 story or heard about it already* it looked almost as though they were more worried about a dead dragon than the neighboring Catrum.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

they seem to have a camera more or less where there third eye is, suggesting they can see through it to an extent.

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They what?

<flips open images> What!? How did I miss this!? Everybody but Rhitahtyn... very interesting.

Now I'm going to sit here and wonder for far too long why Nael van Darnus has one, but it's pretty much entirely covered.

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...aelAvatar2.png
...hm.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Moreover, the enemies turn out to be from the 3rd cohort, implying the came from Castrum Oriens, originally, lol.

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I noticed today that the troops outside Castrum Meridianum are also 3rd cohort, so they could have come from there as well.

It is not in the best interest of the Empire to attack Ishgard.

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Originally Posted by StrangeBard

Yea sorry I had no way of accessing a map of Eorzea at the time and once I had I realized my mistake. Though this does bring up an interesting question on my end. Why is Ishgard consider the Empire to not be a threat if they have a Castrum sitting either right next to or in their territory? It seems to me that it would be best to take precautions against something like that so that Ishgard isn't unprepared for the possibility of a two front war. From what I saw in the 2.4 story *spoilers if for some reason you haven't done the 2.4 story or heard about it already* it looked almost as though they were more worried about a dead dragon than the neighboring Catrum.

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I can't remember where I saw it mentioned so don't take this as gospel, but I do recall reading that Ishgard had signed a neutrality treaty with Garlemald behind the Alliance's back, thus forcing Ishgard not to participate or associate with any military action undertaken by the other city states, hence their continued isolation, their no-shows at Carteneau and Operation Archon, and their stubborn refusal to even acknowledge the Alliance.

Although I have no evidence for this actually being true, it does make sense though, especially when one remembers that Garlemald's whole reasons for invading Eorzea in the first place strikes a chord with Ishgard - the submission of the beast tribes and the destruction of the Primals.

On the surface, Garlemald just appears as any other big warmongering Empire out to bring other sovereign nations under their jackboot, but to the Garleans themselves, they're fighting a noble battle to destroy the Primals and the beastmen who worship them. Ishgard's theocracy has been fighting against beastmen (the Dravanians/dragonkin) for a thousand years - they're basically fighting the same war locally as the Garleans believe themselves to be fighting on a global scale.

And when you remember that following the disaster at Silvertear Lake Gaius actually attempted to bring Eorzea peacefully under the Empire semi-autonomously in return for assisting hunt down and destroy the beastmen, this rings even more true.

But as I said, this is all speculation, so until concrete proof is shown, it's just theorizing on my part. :)

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

I can't remember where I saw it mentioned so don't take this as gospel, but I do recall reading that Ishgard had signed a neutrality treaty with Garlemald behind the Alliance's back, thus forcing Ishgard not to participate or associate with any military action undertaken by the other city states, hence their continued isolation, their no-shows at Carteneau and Operation Archon, and their stubborn refusal to even acknowledge the Alliance.

Although I have no evidence for this actually being true, it does make sense though, especially when one remembers that Garlemald's whole reasons for invading Eorzea in the first place strikes a chord with Ishgard - the submission of the beast tribes and the destruction of the Primals.

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Not really, they are even helping revenant's toll because it's a wall against the garlemald invasion ( that annoyed them in 1.0 by taking Dzemael )

The castrum is not mistake, there are concept art for the maps from the v1 time that showed how they'd change and that castrum was shown to be located a little north to the falcon's nest or whatever that place was called.
I'll look for the documents and post em here.

Found it! http://ffxivmaps.com/2.0/

It's the one at the very bottom, you can see they had already planned to have a castrum here.
Besides there's no way this could be the one in western thanalan, this one is west of the central highlands, if it was this one, it should be way more to the south west, behind the mountains that are above the fury's gaze, where we would not be able to see it.

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Originally Posted by Phyllo

you can see they had already planned to have a castrum here.

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Now we're talkin'. Evidence! I'd forgotten all about these previews after the complete maps came out in ARR (and it looks like they changed a lot from these plans to actual implementation). Very strange. Do you think we're going to find a Castrum exactly like Marinum in every way in the Western Highlands, or do you think they scrapped it and moved that base to Marinum? You'll noticed that Marinum's Warp Gate is attributed to Northern Thanalan in those previews, attached to a prototype Meridianum that was heavily changed before release. Then again, it does seemingly refer to the Western Highlands as "Empire Area," there, lol.

Well, personally I think this castum is too close to the highlands to be In the coerthas either but there is one thing that has been bothering me, what if that shape was just their usual way? Building towers using mountains or rocks around to make them unreachable, the only way to get in would be those warp gate contraptions.
If so, it would not be surprising to see a second castrum marinarum up north in the western highlands, and maybe another cape Westwind like checkpoint to protect its entrance.
Who knows, maybe when we'll get to Ala Mhigo we'll see a third one.

For know I cannot say, but as it made me curious, I'll go check Meridianum, see if the preatorium's shape is similar.

So it might have been a remain of an old plan of having a garlean base there that was cancelled ?

Rather than cancelled I'd say unused.

Btw I just checked northern thanalan and this make no sense, the praetorium is inexistant from there, I've looked from all angle possible it's just not there (even climbed on the ceruleum pipe but nope)
Even meridianum's walls size in north than does no match the size of the dungeon o.O
Which is weird considering that in praetorium, when mounting the magiteck armor, even without looking down, you can see that the tower is pretty damn high, it should be possible to see it from anywhere in the northern thanalan >_<

So I just got into meridianum and there are three things that I noticed.

First, although I could not see it well due to the ceruleum shield, the praetorium kinda look like marinarum, but really slightly that's it.

Second, the praetorium is located behind the huge rock wall we can see in north than, the one where the ceruleum pipes lead to.
The problem is that, considering how much light and glittering things there are around it (not to mention the shield) even if it was placed in a way so it was right in the dead spot behind the wall, we would still see the huge shield and spot lights and all, but no, there's nothing.

Third, when we enter meridianum, and this points explains why the size of the walls seemed off, we are not yet inside the castrum, we must first cross a bridge of earth that is covered by crystals that are not corrupted, like in mor dhona, that bridge leads to the actual castrum.
But once more there is a problem; when you're in northern thanalan, if you look behind the walls, looking from the edge of the precipice where the ceruleum pipes are located, there no such bridge, there is nothing at all, behind these walls there is another precipice making it look like a tiny square shaped fortress, that is what misled me into thinking the size were not matching.

But all of these are probably level design mistakes, it happens and it's not really a big deal, tho it made me digress a lot xD
In the end, we are still at the same point, the Praetorium's shape is not close enough to marinarum's and western highland's to say it's the standard shape of major Castrums :/

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Originally Posted by Phyllo

The problem is that, considering how much light and glittering things there are around it (not to mention the shield) even if it was placed in a way so it was right in the dead spot behind the wall, we would still see the huge shield and spot lights and all, but no, there's nothing.

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You can see the spotlights in Northern Thanalan, I'm guessing the shield isn't shown because it'd only really appear at a specific point in the story

http://i.imgur.com/hAJCGsm.jpg

the spotlights on this picture are the ones on the wall, not the inner castrum, as i said this morning, the actual facility is behind the stone wall, all of it, meridianum and praetorium.

otherwise the earth bridge would only be about 10m long, while it's easily around 100m long.

Bingo, I was looking for that image. Agree'd, this is way too close and appears way too big to be in Thanalan, which is what I've stuck with ever since noticing this Castrum. I bet that it, along with the Coerthas Western Highlands (And the other three inaccessible zones), will be part of Heavensward, or perhaps even just part of the general update at the time.

Just going through my Limited Edition Artbook I can see a few other areas which are categorized under Coerthas. Out of the six images only one applies to what we can currently access and that be the Gates of Judgement, the other 5 are all showing nothing familiar, not even the castrum.

The other five images include a giant cavern which could be The Witch Drop/Oger's Belly cave, one thing that sways me to say no to this is the sheer size and vastness of this concept, and the fact that there appears to be no bottom. Another (Very interesting) image is of a giant structure that looks like a hive of sorts with what appears to be many birds flying around it, this could be Ixal related. What appears to be a cavern with a yellow/gold stone in the centre which seems to be encased in webbing... And the final two are pretty simple, grassy and rocky landscapes that look as though they're straight out of 1.0.

So the question I ask is why draw concept art for stuff that we can't see? Well it's simple, it's because we can't access it... YET! We're getting Ishgard come Heavesward, and guess what? There's concept art of the internal decor of Ishgard and such. So my bet is that our mysterious Castrum will become available once the Western Highlands do so themselves.

P.S. The concept art for Ala Mhigo looks godly in a Roman kind of way. 8D

P.S.S. I'm geographical crazy about lore and geography... If that makes sense.

http://i.imgur.com/bpC3Vfm.png

http://i.imgur.com/eIrEr4Y.png

Took some pictures of le Castrum, looks nice on a clear day. :D