What the hardcore don't understand about Coil nerfs

I was at Fanfest - Vegas when the nerf to 2nd coil was announced to boos. These players need to understand is that they are just a "type" of many "types" of players. You enjoy the challenge and the sense of accomplishment.

You finished 2nd coil. You now have a new coil to play in and a savage mode of 2nd coil. 2nd coil is no longer relevant to you. But instead of letting it become abandoned, it serves as content for the other player. The other "type"

This type will never be hardcore. They might not have the time commitment, the skill, or just aren't as invested in FFXIV. This type of player is the majority of subscribers. These players create the context for hardcore players to measure themselves against. They serve as content when you socialize with them, play pvp with them, or run duty finder.

That type of player, again the majority type, needs to be serviced and needs to be given content that is challenge appropriate. Or else you don't have a game anymore at all.

Three threads regarding the coil nerfs. SE how could you But to your point I agree a few boos doesn't mean everyone.

No, you're talking like there's an extreme. And yes, there are players who will rage quit because they don't understand the fight, but how many hardcore will quit rather than explain or have the patience to help a player new to the fight?

There's a balance here. Basically instant kill mechanics shouldn't exist. Gear should be the determination on how much margin of error you have. The idea is that players should eventually be able to faceroll encounters once they outgear it but outgearing it isn't an option for players new to the content, so they have to learn the encounter. They can make mistakes, but too many mistakes = death. That's what SE has done with 2nd coil now.

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Originally Posted by Stanrule1

They can make mistakes, but too many mistakes = death. That's what SE has done with 2nd coil now.

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Have you actually attempted any of the nerfed turns? You can literally ignore every mechanic in T7 and nothing bad will happen aside from the healers will have to work a little bit harder, it's more like 0 Mistakes = Clear, Many Mistakes = Still clear, but slower.

As someone who has done all but t9 with static issues and rl never had the time or the group. Attempting pugs for t7 and beyond has been terrible too many you fudged up everyone dies..echo doesn't fix that. I welcome the nerfs. Maybe now when I pug to.farm content it won't be terrible everytime

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Originally Posted by Stanrule1

The idea is that players should eventually be able to faceroll encounters once they outgear it but outgearing it isn't an option for players new to the content, so they have to learn the encounter. They can make mistakes, but too many mistakes = death. That's what SE has done with 2nd coil now.

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I am the ilevel that these turns want you to be and it was beaten despite SIX devours from T6. You can't make mistakes in T6/T7 and actually have it matter.

You're ignoring the fact that it's not just "the hardcore" (whoever it is) complaining about the nerfs. It's also, and most importantly, "the casual" (whoever that is) players who wanted to do the actual fights, not the watered down versions of them, but just haven't gotten to it because of lack of time, static, or for whatever reason.

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Originally Posted by Taika

You're ignoring the fact that it's not just "the hardcore" (whoever it is) complaining about the nerfs. It's also, and most importantly, "the casual" (whoever that is) players who wanted to do the actual fights, not the watered down versions of them, but just haven't gotten to it because of lack of time, static, or for whatever reason.

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Hahaha...right.

OP: I said this before as well, you can't say a few hundred people at a fan fest or a couple of angry people on the forum is any type of consensus for either hardcore or casual group of players. I agree with you though, the time for second cool as it was is now over, it's old content and is now more accessible. Kudos to SE and like first coil, you'll all learn to live with the nerfs.

I can understand downing T6 with a pug, if everyone stays the course. However, T7 and T8 are another story. They take some coordination between players, who kites renauds, paying attention to debuffs (voice and shriek) who gets the towers in T8, and when and watching for allaghan field. When SE made T6 through T8 available via DF, they pretty much had to nerf the content.

If everyone had a static this would not have been necessary, but DF is a whole different beast and I feel they made the right move for the majority of players to get through the content and move on. T9 is still a challenge, and I don't see players being able to down this via DF in its present state either, even with echo. Some sort of nerf will also be needed before they can DF that turn.

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Originally Posted by DefendPopPunk

Hahaha...right.

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Just read the long thread and see for yourself. :)

Here's just a few I found fast from the last 10 pages (with my settings).

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

Im not upset because I'm an elitist wishing everyone would be miles behind me progression wise...

Im upset because I never got to try T8/9 without nerfs. T7 was the most challenging thing I got to face in game so far and I haven't even cleared it yet. part of this is due to me being lazy, but still... why nerf it? Its in the DF, and we have access to i120 gear... people cleared it in i92... 28ilvs is a pretty big buff to the player... why nerf it into the ground even more?

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Originally Posted by Backflippinbadger

My static was making good progress in second coil. It was actually fun. Now we don't have that option anymore and will probably go straight to t9.

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

What. The. Fu#%.

I had been working on SCoB when I could get a group that didn't require a previous kill and was having fun with it, now it is a total joke? At least with echo you can turn it off. From now on I guess it's a situation where you better clear everything while it is still recent or you will never be able to enjoy the fight in its full form.

Either be in a static and do current coil, or faceroll everything. Some middle ground would be nice. Just because some players are casual doesn't mean they don't want a challenge.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Just read the long thread and see for yourself. :)

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I did but those that made that complaint are few and far between. Also, I kind of already mentioned something about taking a few posts and somehow making that out to represent a consensus. Either way though, these complaints were around when first coil got nerfed and nothing came of all of that noise.

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Originally Posted by Taika

You're ignoring the fact that it's not just "the hardcore" (whoever it is) complaining about the nerfs. It's also, and most importantly, "the casual" (whoever that is) players who wanted to do the actual fights, not the watered down versions of them, but just haven't gotten to it because of lack of time, static, or for whatever reason.

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Savage Coil was untouched, so who cares? If you really want to wave your giant e-penis around, there's still the Domitor title.

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Originally Posted by DefendPopPunk

I did but those that made that complaint are few and far between. Also, I kind of already mentioned something about taking a few posts and somehow making that out to represent a consensus.

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I didn't say there's a consensus, all I said was there are also these kind of people, who didn't like the nerfs and haven't beaten it yet, and that their opinion matters too, even more so than the opinion of those who have already beaten them.

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Originally Posted by WizardShotTheFood

Savage Coil was untouched, so who cares? If you really want to wave your giant e-penis around, there's still the Domitor title.

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You can't really suggest that savage coil would be a replacement for normal difficulty coil 2 in challenge and target audience? Coil 2 without mechanic nerfs would have been perfect middle difficulty content for those wanting to progress and develop their skills before Final Coil and Savage.

As much as I hate the nerfs I have to admit that it will be nice to que for these in DF to gear up alts and not get obliterated every time.

I really wish that they had left the standard coil in the game and just added a story/easy mode or something to the DF.

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Originally Posted by WizardShotTheFood

Savage Coil was untouched, so who cares? If you really want to wave your giant e-penis around, there's still the Domitor title.

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Savage coil has different mechanics. It's not the unaltered version. So argument not relevant.

Isn't hardcore a type of porn?

Yes, google it.

The nerfs allow people who arrived later to the game catch up towards new end game. Those who have arrived recently to T6 are there because T1 to T5 are nerfed, the primals have echo and there are roulettes that incentive players to play older content. If not, they sure would not have arrived yet maybe even to First Coil. They will not know how Second Coil was with no nerf, as they didn't know how First Coil was without nerf, nor Titan HM with no echo and no roulettes and everybody ilvl 60. But their probabilities to know how Final Coil is without nerf have multiplied. Making higher level gear easier available is also a way to favour catch up (and also make impossible to the new players to have the "real" sensation of how a place was when it was the top content.)

The gear rewarded in Second Coil is not the best available, so more veteran players would not repeat that content with high difficulty for not so good reward. Now they can farm easily Second Coil which will make easier for the recent arrived players to catch up. Second Coil gear is still good to get, and an easier farm will attract veteran players too.

Look what happens in Crystal Tower: very few people goes there, none of the veteran players, and queues are long and parties not the best.

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Originally Posted by JonBigwood

Look what happens in Crystal Tower: very few people goes there, none of the veteran players, and queues are long and parties not the best.

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Not true for our server cluster. CT is heavily populated and it's a mix of veteran and newbies. Veterans are happy because it's more soldiery and newbies have the experienced ones help them. Queues are only 10 minutes for healer.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

Not true for our server cluster. CT is heavily populated and it's a mix of veteran and newbies. Veterans are happy because it's more soldiery and newbies have the experienced ones help them. Queues are only 10 minutes for healer.

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I'm not sure if this is a joke or not, but if it's not and the queues last 10 minutes for a healer, then that pretty much means that not a lot of people are doing CT. Imagine how long the dps queues are if healers are waiting 10 minutes, you can at least double or triple that most likely.

To me, I would never step foot in CT again since I've done it more times than I can remember and the soldiery reward from it is lackluster at best, there are much faster ways to get soldiery than to do CT.

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

I'm not sure if this is a joke or not, but if it's not and the queues last 10 minutes for a healer, then that pretty much means that not a lot of people are doing CT. Imagine how long the dps queues are if healers are waiting 10 minutes, you can at least double or triple that most likely.

To me, I would never step foot in CT again since I've done it more times than I can remember and the soldiery reward from it is lackluster at best, there are much faster ways to get soldiery than to do CT.

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Considering that before 2.4 that the wait times were 40+ minutes for healer, I say that's an improvement. Also, why would I ever queue as dps alone unless I wanted to wait a god awful long time.

Yeah, and I've done CT a lot too. Like, super a lot. I still enjoy it so I still randomly queue for it. *shrugs*

This change has more ups than downs. It was a long time coming anyway seeing what happened to the first coil so why complain now.

You want average difficulty? play catch up with the use of the current scob and do final coil.

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Originally Posted by Taika

You're ignoring the fact that it's not just "the hardcore" (whoever it is) complaining about the nerfs. It's also, and most importantly, "the casual" (whoever that is) players who wanted to do the actual fights, not the watered down versions of them, but just haven't gotten to it because of lack of time, static, or for whatever reason.

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No just no, even for casual players 3 months is enough time being "hardcore" going to have it beaten in month if not less.

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Originally Posted by Prototype909

...it's more like 0 Mistakes = Clear, Many Mistakes = Still clear, but slower.

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And that is problem because of what exactly? Flawless clears are rewarded by being faster. People that want to farm T7 can now farm it for not the best and greatest gear.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

And that is problem because of what exactly? Flawless clears are rewarded by being faster. People that want to farm T7 can now farm it for not the best and greatest gear.

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Why even have the fight then, let alone in something that used to resemble a raid? If clearing is just a formality rather than something you have to execute (Even in diminished capacity) you might as well just queue up and appear in-front of two chests.

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Originally Posted by Mook_Mook

As someone who has done all but t9 with static issues and rl never had the time or the group. Attempting pugs for t7 and beyond has been terrible too many you fudged up everyone dies..echo doesn't fix that. I welcome the nerfs. Maybe now when I pug to.farm content it won't be terrible everytime

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I main SMN, and I get stuck with kite duty in T7 almost every time. I let some them volunteer, but a couple wipes later it is on me. I sure look forward to it being less stressful.

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Originally Posted by Prototype909

...you might as well just queue up and appear in-front of two chests.

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Here we go again, given how 99% of the playerbase hasn't even seen T9, you want to insult basically everyone as wanting to be spoon-fed or stuff handed to them. Having the margin of error widened, is what players want. They want to work thru the stuff, but not deal with a learning curve that is a vertical wall going straight-up, with nearly no margin for error. I am happy I cleared T7 back in before 2.4, but I don't want to see people suffer that kind of punishment in T7 when you got T10 and up for that.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

No just no, even for casual players 3 months is enough time being "hardcore" going to have it beaten in month if not less.

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No, there are a lot of people, who are progressing in scob. And for my opinion it's the most affected group. People who beat t9 long time ago, really don't care. People who didn't see t6, they're just happy about it (or don't care about raiding at all). But people who were learning fights and were close to beat them - yes, they probably beat them first day after nerfs, but SE stole their victory. (they don't have that emotions)

Yes SE needs to make money by offering content to various skill leveled players but they could do it in a better way.

If they took the tiered difficulties that WoW does there would be a lot less complaining. Whenever Blizzard releases a raid now there are 4 difficulity levels. The unskilled players have their LFR, which one of the devs said they design so that someones grandma can beat it, basically face roll easy similar to CT the ultra casuals are happy because they got to see all the bosses and see the story that all the hardcore players get to see. Then they have Normal mode for your average guild, then heroic for the more hardcore and finally mythic for the elite 1%. As the difficulty goes up the item level on drops does too. Hardcore players are happy with their higher ilvl gear for beating the hardest content and casuals are happy to see the raid experience the story and get some similar gear although of a lower ilvl which is fine for them because they aren't doing heroic or mythic raids which require higher ilvl gear.

With multiple difficulties on every raid at the start then there is no need to go back and nerf the once hardcore content. Because the casual player can then jump in to the newest raid on their easy difficulty which is want they want to do since they have no desire to do hardcore content.

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

No, there are a lot of people, who are progressing in scob. And for my opinion it's the most affected group. People who beat t9 long time ago, really don't care. People who didn't see t6, they're just happy about it (or don't care about raiding at all). But people who were learning fights and were close to beat them - yes, they probably beat them first day after nerfs, but SE stole their victory. (they don't have that emotions)

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Exactly. I was progressing. I used to suffer for my T6 and my T7 learning. I suffered and learned T8. I beat T6 and T8 prior and T7 post and it felt hollow. I didn't even work for it. As Haken said, I felt compared to when I was learning it that I should have just zoned in right in front of the treasure chests. It was just so unrewarding.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

...It was just so unrewarding.

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Go do T10 and up then. The iLevel120 gear will make anything in SCoB feel unrewarding. But I want to be able to get my current static to pursue to FCoB. We all know how those who are in T11/12 or hecked cleared T13 does NOT want to give us scrubs the time of day. So SCoB is just a stepping stone to help gear up to an extent, and we still need to clear T9. I don't need T7 to be an unnecessary barrier. There is the unforgiving stuff in FCoB, the role SCoB fills is now different from before. The more things change the more they stay the same.

i didn't like the nerfs because my static in the middle of progressing through turn 7. i don't get to experience the content the way it was originally tuned, and my static doesn't gain any experience we could have originally gained, and if we want to gain it we will have to go to savage coil.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Go do T10 and up then. The iLevel120 gear will make anything in SCOB feel unrewarding.

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He wasn't talking about the gear. It was the victory over the fight he was looking forward to that was taken. If you trained to duel a powerful foe, worked day and night honing your skills to be his equal only to arrive prepared to defeat him in glorious battle but he shows up in a wheel chair because he fell off a ladder and broke his back, you loose the SATISFACTION of the victory you were working for. Telling someone, oh well I can't fight you but there's some dude in the next town that's a challenge does not replace that which you lost. Just because there is another coil doesn't change the fact that some people feel they missed out on an experience that they can never get back in scob.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

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last time this was suggested in a topic, the HC community flamed it like a steak at a BBQ. A Tiered system would be great and allow people to progress up the skill ladder

everything just needs to be skill. Edge out all of the horrible players and force them to get better. Best way

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

No, there are a lot of people, who are progressing in scob. And for my opinion it's the most affected group. People who beat t9 long time ago, really don't care. People who didn't see t6, they're just happy about it (or don't care about raiding at all). But people who were learning fights and were close to beat them - yes, they probably beat them first day after nerfs, but SE stole their victory. (they don't have that emotions)

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That's true. But they are in Second Coil thanks to First Coil and all the previous content being nerfed and made easier and being overgeared with easy to get high gear. Having the chance to reach Final Coil un-nerfed and not overgeared is better. They already are overgeared for Second Coil, they have stolen a small victory from them.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

.. Just because there is another coil doesn't change the fact that some people feel they missed out on an experience that they can never get back in scob.

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The hardcore raiders that put in the time and effort to get that experience will always have that. They earned it, now it is time to move on so stuff does get stale or stagnant. The people that did not have time to keep up with it have to catch the next train. Time's up, there is no point to get hung up on missing the SCoB as it was. That kind of emotion is wasted energy, redirect it toward FCoB.

Adjusting older content and making it part of the learning curve is really smart plan that SE is executing. SCoB is still no cakewalk, and even a T5 clear still have to be earned.