[dev1032] Class uniqueness and Armory System

First of all I have to say I love the armory syste, being able to fully customize your own character is a great thing, but honestly I think the current system gives the player too much freedom.

For exemple, all of the DD want all of the buffs of every class and they can have them working perfectly fine. This is wrong in 2 points:
1- I'm forced to play not one, but many classes I don't like just for one skill.
2- Every DD ends up with the same strategy, with the same build and using the same skills.

I guess the main issue is that we can equip almost everything we want. Increasing the amount of action points to equip a skill of another class we wont be able anymore to equip everything we like, we'll have to think wisely and chose what it's worth to get and what is not.

Plus I think that the ability to cross class shouldn't be applied to WS. Like how is it possible that I can use Arrow Helix with my lancer? o.O I know this would mean getting rid of the cross class regimen, but honestly they aren't that worth ^^'

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Originally Posted by Alcide

First of all I have to say I love the armory syste, being able to fully customize your own character is a great thing, but honestly I think the current system gives the player too much freedom.

For exemple, all of the DD want all of the buffs of every class and they can have them working perfectly fine. This is wrong in 2 points:
1- I'm forced to play not one, but many classes I don't like just for one skill.
2- Every DD ends up with the same strategy, with the same build and using the same skills.

I guess the main issue is that we can equip almost everything we want. Increasing the amount of action points to equip a skill of another class we wont be able anymore to equip everything we like, we'll have to think wisely and chose what it's worth to get and what is not.

Plus I think that the ability to cross class shouldn't be applied to WS. Like how is it possible that I can use Arrow Helix with my lancer? o.O I know this would mean getting rid of the cross class regimen, but honestly they aren't that worth ^^'

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That's basically the key flaw in the armory system. If x skill is better then y skill, and you can switch y skill for x skill at anytime. The x skill will always be preferred.

There's no experimentation because that only lasts for about 3 minutes. And then Devs get the headache to balance x and y skill in a never ending cycle.

Instant gratification formulas tend to have nasty side effects.

What if equipping abilities and spells cost more action points for cross classing?
for example:
2x the ability points for cross classing under the same discipline (i.e. Gladiator -> Lancer)
and
3x the ability points for cross classing outside your discipline (i.e. Gladiator -> Conjurer)

This might put a limit on how many skills people use outside of their own class, lending a bit more "uniqueness" to each class in their own right, and allowing people to continue to customize their character.

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Originally Posted by ChiefCurrahee

What if equipping abilities and spells cost more action points for cross classing?
for example:
2x the ability points for cross classing under the same discipline (i.e. Gladiator -> Lancer)
and
3x the ability points for cross classing outside your discipline (i.e. Gladiator -> Conjurer)

This might put a limit on how many skills people use outside of their own class, lending a bit more "uniqueness" to each class in their own right, and allowing people to continue to customize their character.

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A possiblity, if carefully managed, though we only have 2 DoM classes and the rest DoW, and DoL has basically no combat skills.

The system itself is horribly mis managed so it would have to come in conjunction with other across the board changes.

Then you need to be careful not to over do it, and basically make no ability cross classing worth it, or the opposite, always worth it. AkA shock spiking for every melee.

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Originally Posted by ChiefCurrahee

What if equipping abilities and spells cost more action points for cross classing?
for example:
2x the ability points for cross classing under the same discipline (i.e. Gladiator -> Lancer)
and
3x the ability points for cross classing outside your discipline (i.e. Gladiator -> Conjurer)

This might put a limit on how many skills people use outside of their own class, lending a bit more "uniqueness" to each class in their own right, and allowing people to continue to customize their character.

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Exactly what I was thinking.

Even better, the amount of action points needed should be different from class to class, in example, Lancers amongst the meele are the ones with more MP and more buffing skills so they should spend less ap then the other DoW when equiping a DoM skill; Marauders could be able to tank like Gladiators, so when equiping Glad's skills they should spend less ap then Archers and Lancers.

Although the idea's you are coming up with really do seem plausible, I still believe the only route to take on this matter of Job/Rank Uniqueness would be to keep it within the confines of the job. This theory still has the same flaws of making a job unique. Granted, I'm in favor of making some abilities obtainable through cross matching.

I believe the only way we'll ever reach a level of uniqueness is if most of the abilities of a certain rank stays within that rank. I'm sure you'll agree with me that certain things should never be mixed in between different ranks, for example what Alcide said: Weaponskills. Magic should also stay in their perspective groups. What is the point of having DoM if everyone can use magic? I know it's at a deducted rate, but still, no go. A spell like shock spikes should only be a spell for the enhancer/buffer rank.

Now certain things we can mingle. Now I'm not in tune with all the abilities of the ranks so I'll use old XI terms. Abilities like Berserk, Defender, Warcry, Elemental Seal, Divine Seal, etc were great traits at which you could pass along yet still keep the sanctity of the Job/Rank intact. Only this time instead of a subjob, we obtain these abilities through the ability points we receive.

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

I believe the only way we'll ever reach a level of uniqueness is if most of the abilities of a certain rank stays within that rank. I'm sure you'll agree with me that certain things should never be mixed in between different ranks, for example what Alcide said: Weaponskills. Magic should also stay in their perspective groups. What is the point of having DoM if everyone can use magic? I know it's at a deducted rate, but still, no go. A spell like shock spikes should only be a spell for the enhancer/buffer rank.

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Agree about the ranks, at first I thought it was really cool and realistic, I mean once you've learn something you don't forget it just because you changed your weapon, but some skills at low ranks can be really op (Invigorate II FTW with every class)

The spell issue I think can be addressed with a better affinity system too. Right now DoM spells performed by DoW are weaker, but still worth to be done, especially when playing solo. IMHO they should enhance the affinity system making it worthless to cast a spell by a DoW class IF they have not certain requirements (affinity+ traits, affinity+ equips, ect).

This + different affinity based on class, not on disciple, would help a lot in the class uniqueness issue, yet would keep the system open to customization.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

That's basically the key flaw in the armory system. If x skill is better then y skill, and you can switch y skill for x skill at anytime. The x skill will always be preferred.

There's no experimentation because that only lasts for about 3 minutes. And then Devs get the headache to balance x and y skill in a never ending cycle.

Instant gratification formulas tend to have nasty side effects.

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I think is more like "i want this buff, how can i get it? with a, b, c, d, e, f, g,... skills. Can I use them all at once? Yes. I want them all." There are way too many acc+ and atk+ buffs that are almost identical, they absolutely have to address this, cross class should be based around chosing what to equip, right now it's about equiping everything.

What if it was changed to something like Tactics?

In Tactics, you could learn skills from any Job you leveled up. HOWEVER, only certain skills could be equipped on your current class (with the exception of Squire maybe?). For example... Cure could be equipped on any Class, but Cure II+ could only be equipped on "Mage" classes or perhaps Gladiator to make a "Paladin-esque" character.

What do you guys think about that?

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

What if it was changed to something like Tactics?

In Tactics, you could learn skills from any Job you leveled up. HOWEVER, only certain skills could be equipped on your current class (with the exception of Squire maybe?). For example... Cure could be equipped on any Class, but Cure II+ could only be equipped on "Mage" classes or perhaps Gladiator to make a "Paladin-esque" character.

What do you guys think about that?

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I would love something like that *-* I really hope SE take tactics into account when making advanced classes.
They would perfectly fit this game, they would be something new in the mmo scenario (as far as i know...) and they would be totally final fantasy-esque.

Bump

/10char

This system woudl be similar to XIs sub job system where you could not ever equip cure IV on a melee class due to no other job getting it prior to 37. These types of things would add to the balance of the game, also stygianspikes on glad is just dumb, I can't think of a better way to say it.....

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

What if it was changed to something like Tactics?

In Tactics, you could learn skills from any Job you leveled up. HOWEVER, only certain skills could be equipped on your current class (with the exception of Squire maybe?). For example... Cure could be equipped on any Class, but Cure II+ could only be equipped on "Mage" classes or perhaps Gladiator to make a "Paladin-esque" character.

What do you guys think about that?

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Yes it has been done, and decently balanced, though not totally. What you are suggesting is general skill set and exclusive skill set.

And some of that exists in FF14. Like "requirement : sword"

A more simpler way to do it would be to require -perquisites like cure 3 requires cure 1 and cure 2.

There are many ways to limit the equipping of skills. It is still a hassle to balance it though. It makes things less OP, then you still have a good couple of hundred skills to audit, and there's bound to be "best skill/combo for every class" problem we got now.

The developer suggestion of moving the physical level into the Class is one way of handling that. Can't go around using magic skills if you can't hit anything with it.

God, I'm just afraid with this whole class uniquness thing I won't be able to make the class I want... and it scares me that the devs are remaining quiet.

The best resolve is not increasing AP cost but reducing effectiveness of actions individually for each class. This allow all skills to still be equipped allowing class customization and class uniqueness at the same time.

Example:
1. Cure Effectiveness:
100% CON
75% THM
50% DoW

2. Defender Effectiveness:
100% MRD
75% DoW
50% DoM

These are just examples of how actions can be scaled individually so that uniqueness is increased. SE can change these values to whatever they want. Although this idea is implemented much more effectively with the Title System rather than based on class. (Link #1 in my signature.)

i much prefer to leave the armory system exactly like it is. if you do not want to level other classes that is fine, but i wish to do so. in fact if such things do come into play it will cause even more people to leave the game than already has. myself and most of my ls and most people i know in game included.

We have seen this discusion over and over the hybrid class system for me makes things bland like the op said it makes every dd and mage seem the same in the end.
I hope they address this one sooner than later. I know i will get attacked for this *sigh* but in xi what i loved was that there was a sense or pride for the class you played and the strategy that came with the sub class system was awesome.
A warrior could have a completly different play style simply by changing his sub this system is amazing i thought and it wasnt over powered because making the subclass capped at 1/2 the main class man perfect.
In xiv everyone is everything now, no one ever asked "what class do you play" because it doesnt really matter. Of all the things that they could try to be all ground breaking inovative this is one i wish they had let stay the same, just this one thing! Since the very 1st ff on nes there has been "ff classes" and in everone after that and i have played them all i mean all. old school ff mystic quest dude what? XD ok sorry to rant or whine w/e tf you wanna call it, i am a final fantasy fan i even liked X-2 *hides* please SE, Mr. Yoshida if anyone is listening to a diehard fan, bring back the classes the real FF fans know and love.
For thoes that wanna attack me for this post go right ahead idc i am a gamer plain and simple i love rpg's and my fondest memories in gaming have been with FF so i have come to expect certain things when i see this name on a box.

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Originally Posted by Linnear

This system woudl be similar to XIs sub job system where you could not ever equip cure IV on a melee class due to no other job getting it prior to 37. These types of things would add to the balance of the game, also stygianspikes on glad is just dumb, I can't think of a better way to say it.....

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Exactly what i am talking about, its hard for me to understand why a fan of this series would like this system most ff fans are like dude drg owns or man pld is my type of class i like to protect my friends ect ect i think most of the ppl that are cool with this are like new to final fantasy and are just mmorpg fans in general instead.
This system just doest hold to the standards i think most ff fans like or maybe its just me, now go ahead and attack me, uber gladiator with your awesome dagger

Final Fantasy Tactics (War of the Lions) had one of the best job systems of any FF game. It was amazing because it had a tremendous amount of flexibility in it, but every job was still unique. A key component to keeping it balanced was the different types of slots that a Job had available for abilities.

Rather than just 3 categories', FFXIV could have many different groups of abilities such as: 'Basic Attacks', 'TP Attacks', 'White Magic', 'Black Magic', 'Arcane Magic', 'Green Magic', 'Time Magic', 'Defense', 'Reactions', 'Boost', 'Songs', 'Recovery' 'Attributes','Traits', 'Special', etc...

Each Class would have access to a limited number of categories, and each ability would carry a type, rank limit, and cost. For instance: a White Mage could have a list like the following: (I'm using arbitrary numbers)
White Magic (18pts)
Time Magic (10pts)
Green Magic (8pts)
Recovery (10pts)
Reaction (4pts)
Attributes (6pts)

I think this would work very well as it would still allow for considerable customization without allowing classes to essentially become clones of each-other. In addition, special gear could grant more points in a certain category, or even access to a new category.

I really find it frustrating that after 6 months of this MESS of a game, and coming back after a 4 month break around january, that there are level 50 players flooding this board with thoughts like "the armory system works".

lets get one thing very clear: the game does not work, and the ideas used are not good.

There is a very very clear message that the fan base has sent SE, and it is that they strongly dislike the huge lack of content, and the basic functionality of this game. Please, for the developers sake, stop trying to hold on to the armory system. It sucks! there are a thousand flaws with it that are not even worth mentioning because it's time to MOVE ON.

This game NEEDS to go back to traditional names, and it also NEEDS to give up on the incredibly stupid class/job system it has now. Someone had stated earlier that they dislike the armory because of how grey everything has become. Bravo to that person, because they are right on the god damn money. This game is bland, empty, and GREY.

The time for experimenting with crazy class and job ideas was in DEVELOPMENT. not 6 months after all the FF title fanboys are PISSED at how bare bones their messiah of a game has become. I am an angry fan too, and when I come to read these forums and see people saying "I like the armory system", i cringe.

Please understand that this is not a "troll post", however it is one filled with strong sentiment against what seems to be commonly supported on these forums. I also would like to add, that just because YOU like grinding your eyes out in a boring bland world, where each character is basically the same, it DOES NOT mean that other people do. In fact, as the statistics for this game would probably argue, you are the minority. Sure, maybe its only you guys left playing the game right now, but all of the huge fans of FF series are not in agreement with you. Why is the FFXIV? there are no chocobos, and absolutely nothing that says "final fantasy". Is there? because I didn't see it, and I freaking pre-ordered the game.

I WANT TO SEE TRADITIONAL NAMES, and if that means we go back to strict classes and even lost the ability to have one character do it all, I would not care. Make this game fun, make it freaking work!!! because right now it ISN'T just a lack of content that is hurting this game and everything surrounding it. It's the ideas, and the fundamental lack of action to go and change how we view XIV. It needs to change, drastically. If it doesn't, no one will want to come around to check it out again and this game will suffer heavily for that. I really hope this sinks in with you multiple level 50 players...

In my opinion, differientating Weaponskills from other skills would be a good step making the classes more unique. Weaponskills need to be tied to a weapon as it doesn't make any sense, when any class can use skills like barrage. This way classes would differ from each other with their own unique weaponskills. Also this would make possible for devs to replace the lackluster animations as they wouldn't need to be ported on other weapons. For spells, I think answer isn't just making them useless on other DoW, but adding more cooldown to make them more of an emergency option. For example curing spells with cooldown ranging from 1-3min and buffs could have more heavily reduced efficiency and spells like Protect would last 1min with 5min cooldown. This would prevent DoWs being efficient self healers/buffers, but leave them a backup option for tougher fights.