The problem with dps and balance

soo my friends, i found a couple of threads with stuff like : drg being too weak compared to nin and mnk or smn being too weak compared to blm and so on.

the thing is that these "weaker" classes cry for a buff, BUT i think thats the false way to go. we really dont need much more dmg ingame. what really should happen is a nerv to nin and monk, cause they are over the top atm.

drg compared to blm, smn and bard is fine as he is right now.

and for the smn, i think a little buff in therms of mp management would be ok for sure, but every increase of potency or whatever and the mp fix would be too good. imagine, in every fight with multiple targets he would be even more op than mnk and nin are atm.

just my thoughts on that.
what u guys think? (sry for my bad english:p)

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Originally Posted by Ryzue

I've met plenty of dragoons that out dps monk and other nins just fine. It's about knowing exactly how to play your class to it's best potential to maximize damage. The only thing dragoons would need is a magic defense buff. Seriously lol

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No, just no. What you have met are penty of Dragoons that out dps specific (less skilled) monks and ninjas just fine. Given the same gear, skill and class knowledge, a DRG won't outdps a MNK or NIN, unless there's plenty of forced downtime for Grease Lightning. Just let me know if you know of any DRG that can parse 500+ DPS on a dummy in iLvl 110 gear (with iLvl 115 weapon) for a longer period of time (e.g. until they are TP starved) or that can parse 500 DPS in a fight like T8. Until you know of such Dragoons, you only speak of Goons that haven't met equally well versed MNKs and NINs yet.

well u cant compare dungeons with raids... in a dungeon a blm pretty much outdps everyone if it comes down to aoe dmg and even in terms of bossfights if ur lucky on proccs

I once stole hate from a tank with an ilvl110 weapon. We were on Diablo and I had my Atma weapon. Does that mean I'll be top dps when I get my Novus?

First time seeing a dungeon run being used as a basis for DPS comparisons.

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Originally Posted by Ryzue

No, your wrong. Met a dragoon in Quarn HM before maintanence. He outdps'd me something fierce on my Nin. ilvl 110 here, so was he, I followed my rotations to the T, so did he. I always had my dots up on boss, he never let his debuffs on boss. kept huton up AND would use refresh skill on mudra's for raiton (auto crit) and still outdps'd me. Their main prob is MAGIC DEF

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So I take it that you find yourself to be one of the very best Ninja players out there, if not the best? Which numbers did you and the DRG pull in that specific run and what kind of numbers do you pull on a dummy? If you are not amongst the triple A league of Ninjas, giving personal anecdotes of being outdps'd don't mean squat. Of course others may outdps you, if your skill level is not up there with the best of the best. I assure you that Dragoons ain't pulling 500+ DPS on a dummy (not even close) whilst Monks and Ninjas both can.

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Originally Posted by Ryzue

No, your wrong. Met a dragoon in Quarn HM before maintanence. He outdps'd me something fierce on my Nin. ilvl 110 here, so was he, I followed my rotations to the T, so did he. I always had my dots up on boss, he never let his debuffs on boss. kept huton up AND would use refresh skill on mudra's for raiton (auto crit) and still outdps'd me. Their main prob is MAGIC DEF

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You forgot to say that you are the 3 weeks old ninja god who knows it all to underline your strong argument that DRG is stronger than NIN :cool:

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Originally Posted by Ryzue

No, your wrong. Met a dragoon in Quarn HM before maintanence. He outdps'd me something fierce on my Nin. ilvl 110 here, so was he, I followed my rotations to the T, so did he. I always had my dots up on boss, he never let his debuffs on boss. kept huton up AND would use refresh skill on mudra's for raiton (auto crit) and still outdps'd me. Their main prob is MAGIC DEF

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You really shouldn't use dungeon runs as a reference.

I'll be honest too, I really hate dummy parse numbers used a reference. I feel like anyone with the right gear and rotation should be able to pull those numbers on a dummy seeing as there is no real interaction. You just go through your rotation. Where real skill comes in is during raid boss fights. This is where real awareness and skill comes into play. There are people who can parse high on dummies all day and then flop hard when it comes to applying it in actual situations. Raid boss parses are where the meat and potatoes are.

On those fights, barring some circumstances, the drg as of right now should not out dps a good nin/mnk. This does not mean the drg can't put up respectable numbers, just not as high as the other two mdps.

Hopefully the fix for drg will bring them in line with the other two.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

*snip*

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Of course dummy parses are in no way representative for real encounters, but they are a pretty valid tool to determine the DPS ceilings of the classes and the ceiling for MNK and NIN is definitely way higher than for DRG. That's the whole point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ryzue

No, your wrong. Met a dragoon in Quarn HM before maintanence. He outdps'd me something fierce on my Nin. ilvl 110 here, so was he, I followed my rotations to the T, so did he. I always had my dots up on boss, he never let his debuffs on boss. kept huton up AND would use refresh skill on mudra's for raiton (auto crit) and still outdps'd me. Their main prob is MAGIC DEF

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Maybe, just maybe, Ninja is not your forte.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ryzue

No, your wrong. Met a dragoon in Quarn HM before maintanence. He outdps'd me something fierce on my Nin. ilvl 110 here, so was he, I followed my rotations to the T, so did he. I always had my dots up on boss, he never let his debuffs on boss. kept huton up AND would use refresh skill on mudra's for raiton (auto crit) and still outdps'd me. Their main prob is MAGIC DEF

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Were you:

- Clipping your DoTs early?
- Keeping up Spinning Edge?
- Managing your cool downs?
- Locking onto the boss to hit all your auto attacks?
- Getting two Ninjitsus inbetween Hutons without letting it fall? (Not including Kassatsu being up)
- Hitting Trick Attack every time its up?

If you can even find a DRG anymore.

Most of the one's I know have all become NIN.

Gotten to the point where if you see a DRG you get to make a wish.

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Originally Posted by athenia

soo my friends, i found a couple of threads with stuff like : drg being too weak compared to nin and mnk or smn being too weak compared to blm and so on.

the thing is that these "weaker" classes cry for a buff, BUT i think thats the false way to go. we really dont need much more dmg ingame. what really should happen is a nerv to nin and monk, cause they are over the top atm.

drg compared to blm, smn and bard is fine as he is right now.

and for the smn, i think a little buff in therms of mp management would be ok for sure, but every increase of potency or whatever and the mp fix would be too good. imagine, in every fight with multiple targets he would be even more op than mnk and nin are atm.

just my thoughts on that.
what u guys think? (sry for my bad english:p)

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Oh look peeps, we got a "buff another UP class by nerfing other classes"! Go back to WoW, OP!

I think that Ninja, Monk and Dragoon can be balanced properly... There just needs a few minor tweaks. We're all so fascinated by that DPS number in a parse we forget that Dragoon is supposed to have burst, and if SE pushes them further into a burst role, this will be exactly what they need... As well as that magic defense boost. Ninja has burst, and sustain, but their burst is not that much greater than a Dragoon, nor their sustain as high as a Monk, meaning they are a middle group. Monk is pure sustain with a wee bit of boost if you choose to stack critical on crafted gear, and that is fine since they need a little bit to ramp up to their sustain state...

However, as I said, there just needs to be a few tweaks and it will all fall into place, hopefully.