Why DF parties fail so much on hard content

Simple reason being, zero communication. Everyone enters, buff and start.

Problems arise because:

1) Players may be new and dont notify the party
2) Players may have different strat so there is no plan that all are on the same page with.
3) Some may not be new but unsure of certain phases
4) Players entering hard content and selecting a language they are unable to understand or communicate in. AKA If you are trying hard content and do not speak a language do not select that language with any expectations of clearing. It just makes things harder for you and for the rest of the party. There is no point selecting a language just for faster ques if you cannot clear that content due to communication problems.

All of those can be sorted (except the language barrier) with the party taking a couple of minutes to sort out a plan and to give advice to those unsure on some mechanics. Instead of all charging in Gung-ho with no coordination.

It's that co-ordination that allows statics to clear content, something which is highly important. Something which doesn't happen with the majority of DF parties.

One person has to step up and act as a leader within DF parties, and the rest should follow. What job they are on is irrelevant as long as one person steps up to the mark and people listen, then DF parties success rate will vastly improve.

Can not agree more! I recently came back from a break (think 2.2 was just coming out right as I was quitting) and had a large amount of dungeon's to catch back up on to unlock my roulette's. Firs thing I always did was state "Hello, first time on this one" or "first time for HM".

Lo and behold, people were friendly and cleared all dungeons with little to no issues. This applies to anything DF as well. I have seen DF (FC Friend) clear titan EX simply because of "communication".

I know some people get stuck with the "elitist" who doesn't take kindly to people who don't understand, but these are few and far between as long as an attempt is taken to communicate.

My 2 cents.

I have to agree with you aswell. I joined a dungeon and this happend in the first 2 minutes:

1. We all join the dungeon.
2. I type Hi and I want to start buffing, but then I see the tank running away.
3. I swiftcast stoneskin and protection on tank, tank grabs alot of mobs.
4. We have two non aoe dps........
5. We wipe.
6. Tank insults us, dps insults back etc.
7. We respawn.
8. Tank starts step 2.

Aside from a fast Hi, Hello, Salut, Bonjour, there is zero communication. I tried talking with others, but I get zero response. There are times when I get a STFU and go heal, healer response when I am doing a dungeon with randoms. I have also noticed that alot of players assume that other players have the same ilevel and skill.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

alot of players assume that other players have the same ilevel and skill.

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That is the cause of failure right there, no one should ever "assume" anything of any player @ least when it comes to DF...

That remembers me a time the tank ran away making aggro while I still were loading duty, and yelling at me when he died alone 500 yalms away.

Not to mention, the silent duties where all waiting me (SCH) casting Protect, while I have put on Cleric stance and we all into lv.18 Tam-Tara. I guess still they don't understand why I don't cast Protect.

Just got out of a turn 5 DF with my SCH alt. Party cnosisted of some who spoke english, some french who didnt understand english and an Italian SCH who didn't understand English.

So you can imagine how that went when trying to organise and communicate when half the pary didn't understand English. Yet they selected English in the DF "For the faster ques". Yet for content like turn 5. Even if you know the content, communication is key.

Selecting English in DF for turn 5 may get you faster ques, it also gets you faster wipes and duty abandons also. So overall they lose.

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Originally Posted by Levis

Can not agree more! I recently came back from a break (think 2.2 was just coming out right as I was quitting) and had a large amount of dungeon's to catch back up on to unlock my roulette's. Firs thing I always did was state "Hello, first time on this one" or "first time for HM".

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Exactly! If players state they are new, things can be explained, mistakes overlooked and expected, whereas going in silent others will conclude that they know the dungeon and if wipes are caused because of lack of knowledge, tempers can easily get frayed.

plus there often more than one way to tackle a content and people run in with different strategy they learn't in their statics, Turn 5 conflags is a prime example

Couldnt agree with you more on the points you make about language selection on the queue. I only speak english, therefore only have english selected in my DF queue since i cant communicate in other languages. Had a disasterous DF run earlier on today, was tanking, got into a group that seemed to be all french, not communicating in a way i could understand. Pointed out that i queue with only english selected since i can't understand any other language, turned out one of them spoke english (enough to insult me) then they promptly kicked me o.o. Communication is the key to any successful run of anything.

The main one that I have run into is the attitude of "do what I want, how I want or I will rage and start talking trash and trolling until I get kicked or drop."

As tank, I will always pace the dungeon run based off what I can surmise that the party can handle, yet I always get that one person that either runs forward and facepulls because we are going too slow or that person that will just stop moving and sit back because we are going too fast. If the party wants to and are capable of going faster and doing bigger pulls, I'll do that. If they want to take it slower or aren't capable of big pulls, I'll do that. Don't be that one A-hole that dictates what the party must do.

In a group of four random people, no one person's wants are more important than everyone else's.

(Please use the Auto-translate function)

I run my DF with all the languages selected. Only language I have a problem with is Japanese, but that is what auto-trans is for. Using it in XI for years I am used to it. It can be tough to clear in DF group with the language barrier but there are tools at our disposal. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

For the most part, roulette content is fine. EX on up stuff should be ran with a group you can communicate with. Otherwise the problems start.

I agree there's a lack of communication but also a lack cooperation in the party. I see a lot of people post "I always ask my party..." not everyone does..in fact a lot don't. People are there for different reason I understand this, but it seems that new people are afraid to say anything because the guys who want to rush it will just leave or want them kicked. At the same time the new people don't want to listen one bit..it's a mix and match.

There's people who "assume" you should try your best to speed run something. Even though there's road blocks along the way, there's points where you can gather a decent amount of mobs. Yes the entire "whateva I do what I whant!" has caused a party or two of mine to wipe.

I usually can get in a hello but if I'm on PS4 I try to start buffing asap because usually the tank forgets to put on shield oath or defiance and starts hauling butt towards the mobs. I had a horrible horrible party yesterday morning.

I go in I couldn't get in a Hi, tank just ran off. The tank pulled as many mobs as possible in snowcloak. The party was a Ninja and Bard so set up wise, nothing bad. The tank would stop and flash or overpower for each group of mobs and move on to the next one. The Ninja however ran right past the tank and pulled ahead, bringing everything back at almost no HP causing me to use a bene or in some rare serious cases a swiftcast Cure II which I don't list wasting that on. The tank struggled to stay alive and the Ninja kept getting with everything my MP and CD's were used up constantly. The Tank asked the Ninja for TP and he refused. Tank finally asked why are you pulling ahead. "Because we're here", they let it go on the entire run. Finally go to Final pull and Ninja died from gathering the mobs and the dragons AOE. Tank mentioned how they shouldn't of pulled. Ninja responded "Shut up you're worthless now, we're at the end we don't even need you anymore" Tank kept quiet and we finished Fenrir..but it was such a horrible run..no one cared, no one talked and those who did gave the "whateva! I do what I whant!"

On the flip side, I did a Crystal Tower run all new people. Tanks just didn't know where to put adds and DPS kept killing skellies in the middle. Finally people were kicked and others listened we proceeded through. We got to the bomb and we got a new tank all in SCoB gear, I expected some sort of professionalism. He runs in, goes into infuriate mode and pulls instantly before we can explain fully to the new people, even though we already said some are new and mid-way through discussing who was getting what. The elitist decided that you should know exactly what to do..but this was a group who had new people that finally would listen to mechanics..just to be spoiled by a few others who expected it to run perfectly.

content short of EX i have never had a problem clearing with any party as any role =|

I didn't know there was "hard" content in the DF.
Or maybe we dont have the same signification of the word "hard".

The real question is : Why DF parties fail so much on easy content ?

In JP data center, DF can clear most content up to t8 (most of them are 1-3 shots, only ones that people have problem with are Ramuh and T8). And there is usually no communication other than greetings. Dunno why in NA data centers DF is so bad.

DF fails so hard because

0) You aren't on a JP server

Silence is Golden is surely not the way to go if you play with Strangers lol. I know the "Tank attacks before Healer can even cast Protect" wipes but I also love the Wipes that come after you ask "Somebody need an Explanation or is this fight clear to everybody"? and you get nothing than akward Silence back lol. And then you see quickly that lots of people are new to the fight or did not understand you because of a Language bareer.

Why? Because people don't use their brains, don't try to learn, just blindly follow guides, don't know how to play their jobs well, are distracted by a thousand small things around them, are to afraid to ask for clarification(due to tens of thousands of reasons), are unable to analyze why something happened and how to handle it, are unable to communicate for whatever reason.

The only suggestion I have to people is: go into fights blind and learn the mechanics and how to deal with them on your own. Yes it will take wipes, sweat and tears but at the end you will be rewarded by the joy of understanding atleast part of the mechanics and how to adapt around them. After you reach that phase sure go watch a guide or 10 if you feel like you still need it - and if nothing else it might give you a different perspective on how to do something.

Start a PF for like minded people if you want to learn that way or experience fights that way.

Some people also give bad advice too, lol. I saw someone ask: "Do I need to read or see a guide for Garuda EX?" Answer: "no, unless you are the tank, just don't kill the Spiny plume."

I think that except content that is brand new and there are no guides and nobody has a clue or nearly, we all have to look at a guide to at least know what to expect. This is group play and you can spoil other people's runs if you just go knowing nothing.

About Japan difference, I have heard in Japan they use to learn in PF and go to DF once they have enough experience, so DF parties are supposed to go well. In NA and EU usually the DF parties are for learning, and PF parties for advancing more and getting the kill. Except places that are not so difficult and you can expect a kill with more or less wipes.

Also say if you are new, that's nothing bad, and have patience and explain if there is somebody who needs it.

In long difficult fights like T5 you should expect a lot of explaining and wipes and probably just advancing some phases.

I don't consider that bad advice. I just consider it advice given by someone who expects people to use their brain.

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Originally Posted by JonBigwood

we all have to look at a guide to at least know what to expect.

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It's called using your brain and adapting to changes around you. Try it sometime instead of watching a guide to expect something. It can be very rewarding.

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This is group play and you can spoil other people's runs if you just go knowing nothing.

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And you can do the same for those that actually want to learn and understand the fights by expalining how something should be done(according to guides etc...)

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In long difficult fights like T5 you should expect a lot of explaining and wipes and probably just advancing some phases.

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Well problem is that people again don't use their brain. Until they start using their brains and actually adjusting to things around them nothing will change sadly.

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Originally Posted by Artiste

I didn't know there was "hard" content in the DF.
Or maybe we dont have the same signification of the word "hard".

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1st Coil, turn 5, 2nd Coil, Titan EX, Moogle EX, Striking Tree EX... I'm not saying that 2nd Coil is as hard as it was, but it's certainly more challenging than most of your avg daily roulettes. Having pug'd turns 5 and 6 successfully, I was hoping to get through 7, but folks don't seem to get voice and shriek, so the boss gets buffed and people get frozen and we start again until people get fed up and leave. You're right, it's not HARD, but people are not taking the time to learn from their mistakes or paying attention to what others are doing during the mechanics either. I actually experienced a wipe in 1st Coil turn 4 yesterday. I thought I was in an alternate universe. How do a group of people who are geared so highly wipe both tanks and healers on such easy content?

Regardless of what DF it is, if people don't know the mechanics and don't or (for whatever reasons) ask, then even something simple can become extra work or almost impossible.

Here's two reasons missed by the OP:

1. People just don't have or won't take the time to ask for mechanics that they don't know. The I'll make it up as I go along syndrome.
2. People don't have or won't take the time to explain mechanics. That's the It takes less time to bitch about it and repeat the fight syndrome.

reason people fail in any DF content is communication or lack there of.

here's a recent raid set up I ran into
2 experienced t9 geared players
2 competent adaptable raiders with limited clears
1 person who says "hi I'm new"
3 people who say nothing "wildcards"
no one said anything or discussed anything, just pulled, someone rage quit after the 3rd wipe and the rest of us left.

another day another DF
Same set up, same raid, only this time tactics were discussed and mechanics explained, cleared on 2nd attempt.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Selecting English in DF for turn 5 may get you faster ques, it also gets you faster wipes and duty abandons also. So overall they lose.

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Have your seen the wait when English isn't selected? They want to actually access the content.

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Originally Posted by PetiteMalFleur

Have your seen the wait when English isn't selected? They want to actually access the content.

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If they can communicate in the languages they select, there is no issue. But going in blind on coil for example and getting partied with others who only speak english (I speak Portuguese, Spanish, English and can get by in German and French) then communication becomes an issue. Take turn 5, if they have no idea what to do with divebombs, and unable to understand explanation in how to handle them, causing constant wipes to the same mechanic until the party either a) vote kicks the player or b) vote abandons.

Now tell me, how much good did that do them then? It's unfair to the rest of the party in its selfishness.

Now multiply that by having 3 -4 the same.

Turn it around, say I don't understand any French, I join with F selected for something I never done before and going in blind as tank. The other 7 French have the fight on farm status, I enter, I pull I wipe the party. Party explains what I need to do, I ignore it because I don't understand what they are saying and continue to do the same thing that wiped the party the first time. After half n hour of this. No kills, no progression, no communication. And you think thats fine?

That does happen and it is hella frustrating.

I understand it's frustrating but I think the bigger issue is more why are people who have zero knowledge of even the basic mechanics of a fight queueing in DF at all. I don't go into these duties expecting to clear because the NA/EU player base attitude towards hard content is to use DF for learning the content before trying to gather a party and clear in party finder. There's nothing preventing players from watching a video to at least familiarize themselves with basic mechanics of the fight they are trying to clear. This is the attitude that keeps experienced players from queueing at all. It's a waste of my time to teach random people where to drop meteors so we don't wipe or how to pull a golem to the wall if they took aggro on it.

JP use DF to clear content. It's an insult to join in DF and not know the fight. I see the NA/EU attitude of DF=learning starting to shift as people queue for T6-7 wanting to farm and clear for loot then actually kicking people who don't know the fight. It's a slow shift but using df is far more efficient than pf groups so I personally hope this trend continues.

This is why I wish we could type while fighting....

I try to type mid fight to help people and end up causing more problems.

It's pretty ridiculous to not be able to type during combat in an MMO...imho anyway.