Game needs Medium-Difficulty Support

This game ranges from pretty-utterly easy (All Dungeons, Steamroll Tower) to incredibly difficult (Savage Coil).

Every once in a while, we get a decent mid-grade difficulty option (Pre-Nerf Pharos, Primal Extremes, Obsoleted Echo-Coil)... but there's very little support for it in general... notice the terms "pre-nerf" or "obsoleted".

Using Duty Finder as a reference:

I think Easy Difficulty should be fairly PUG-able.
I think Medium Difficulty should be pretty difficult to PUG.
I think Hard Difficulty should be next-to-impossible to PUG.

How to Implement Medium Difficulty:

"Extreme" Dungeons, both mechanically/statistically tougher (no need bosses/layouts to spare development time).

"Savage" 24-Mans, generally for pre-made Alliances/FC fun.

"Raid Lite" 8-Man alternative, less dependent on statics; a good, achievable progression-point, for the less hardcore or skilled.

^will require the expansion, I've read there will be multiple 8-man raid options... but we'll see. Not saying "easy Coil", I'm saying a different raid altogether. I think it's okay to have top-tier difficulty raids that remain top-tier so long as imperative plot details aren't gated behind it (*cough* Coil *cough*).

Primal's seem fine as-is though they don't qualify as raid-alternatives (neither should they) since they have so little personal replay value once you earn the piece you want.

Obsoleting a raid-tier to medium difficulty doesn't really count either as it's not really 'supporting medium difficulty' content but rather assisting "catch up". Implementing medium difficulty content in-line with easy & hard content is more appropriate & a must for this game imho.

BONUS: Savage Raids need better incentive, a title doesn't cut it.

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Originally Posted by Toodles

"Savage" 24-Mans, generally for pre-made Alliances/FC fun.

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This would screw over small FCs. My FC has 2 active coil groups. And we are in total ~20 ppl in the FC. So we could maybe put together 16ppl max. Ofc this is assuming that it would not be possible to do with DF.

But i agree that game needs medium difficulty stuff. Only extreme primals could be counted to some sort of medium difficulty. but there is only 1 boss fight on each patch for that.

One of the difficult game in FFXIV is find another 7 persons can do the dance, and now you want to looking for 23 persons can do the dance & say it is easier !?

/sarcasm

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Originally Posted by xnonamex

This would screw over small FCs. My FC has 2 active coil groups. And we are in total ~20 ppl in the FC. So we could maybe put together 16ppl max. Ofc this is assuming that it would not be possible to do with DF.

But i agree that game needs medium difficulty stuff. Only extreme primals could be counted to some sort of medium difficulty. but there is only 1 boss fight on each patch for that.

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Hardly "screw them over", besides, it wouldn't be mandatory.

So befriend another FC or PF for another group of 8.

Or have a slightly more difficult time using the DF for the remaining 8.

It's also quite easy in this game to network via Linkshells honestly.

I hear wildstar has all the difficult content you could ask for. They also desperately need the subs.

I don't know if any of this is the answer to the problem but I certainly see where you're coming from.

Everything up till binding coil is faceroll simple; to the extent you almost have to actively try to fail and even when you do they give you enough echo to push you through it anyway. As a result I feel like a lot of players get a inflated sense of skill and don't know how to play their jobs; which leads to problems when you get to endgame and suddenly the difficulty curve spikes up and the game stopped holding your hand. This causes headaches especially when you see the massive skill gap between players if you ever have to add replacement into coil or extreme primals, or even doing high level roulette and watching monks spam dragon kick or summoners using titan-egi, blms spamming fire 3 and nothing else, you get the idea.

I'm hoping maybe we could tune down the echo buffs for stuff from now on, keep it as hard and just let the power creep nerf it as people higher and higher in ilvl. I think maybe you're doing a disservice getting players through content they shouldn't have cleared because the next fight is only harder.

^great points!

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Originally Posted by OranKells

I don't know if any of this is the answer to the problem but I certainly see where you're coming from.

Everything up till binding coil is faceroll simple; to the extent you almost have to actively try to fail and even when you do they give you enough echo to push you through it anyway. As a result I feel like a lot of players get a inflated sense of skill and don't know how to play their jobs; which leads to problems when you get to endgame and suddenly the difficulty curve spikes up and the game stopped holding your hand. This causes headaches especially when you see the massive skill gap between players if you ever have to add replacement into coil or extreme primals, or even doing high level roulette and watching monks spam dragon kick or summoners using titan-egi, blms spamming fire 3 and nothing else, you get the idea.

I'm hoping maybe we could tune down the echo buffs for stuff from now on, keep it as hard and just let the power creep nerf it as people higher and higher in ilvl. I think maybe you're doing a disservice getting players through content they shouldn't have cleared because the next fight is only harder.

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If only that were the only thing many players do wrong in endgame content such as coil. The biggest reason to wiping though however is not the lack of their own skill knowledge, but quite simply a complete disregard for tactics. People stand in AoE effects, they dodge incoming attacks way too slow, are often too late on situational tactics, etc.

And often these single player mistakes lead to wipes rapidly. It'd be nice if prior to unlocking raiding content such as coil, players would first need to clear a chain of hardmode guildhests which know similar mechanics. A selection of extreme dungeons to test their dodging skills and all on 4-player content of multiple bosses. Prior to giving entry to raids. That way at least the basic training is there. It'd also become easier to add raiding content to DF faster, as only those players who managed to get through all the other content would have access to it. Of course some may get carried through, but that portion would be significantly smaller than the amount of people simply queuing up in DF for coil 1-5 right now with no experience on such sort of content whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Jaykos

I hear wildstar has all the difficult content you could ask for. They also desperately need the subs.

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Shots fired!

I needed the chuckle. I was also going to mention something similar.

I miss 2.0 when coil T1-4 was difficult, yet could be done without a static. While PUGs failed most of the time, it was still possible for those without statics and much playing time to progress up through t4. Those of us with little time could still progress but not as fast as those with statics. One week you would make it all the way through t4, the next you would only get past t2. It was a nice challenge for those who were not hardcore raiders. None of that is happening now, either have a static or you are getting nowhere with coil. I hope they figure out a better lockout system to get away from this.

I miss the days of the EX primals delivering relevant loot and challenge. The first set of 3 gave i90 when it was the top stuff and Leviathan giving 95 made it a good stop-gap catch up option and even one of the best things you could get for a time if you found a mirror.
Now they're basically vanity kills.
Ramuh gear was obsolete when it landed and the ring only buffed after quite a long time. Shiva's weapon is last-patch level...at least the bracelet is an upgrade...But it's just a single, non-upgradable, accessory at tome-purchase ilevel. Pretty lame. I owudl have prefered the fight be a bit harder so we could get a 115 weapon out of it, at least.

I agree this game needs more middle ground content. Something for newer players to step into before launching into higher end raids. I don't know if your suggestions are the right course or not, but something should happen. I once suggested some midlevel difficulty 8man guildhest content, but that thread got horrifically hijacked and went no where. :/

The game should really have three fights on the level of extreme primal with every patch for mid level content. 2.1 was a lot of fun killing the extreme primals, and it could be done with PUGs. One primal per patch with outdated loot isn't good enough. We don't need three new tomestone dungeons every patch, cut it down to two and focus the saved time on some more mid level content.

Nothing in this game is difficult. What makes the content hard is finding 7 others who can focus for some 10-20 mins to move their joysticks back and fro while being able to click icons or mash buttons. What SE needs to do is make content that allows players to understand their jobs and understand how to react to mechanics. I thought the HM primals were a decent attempt at getting people to adapt and use as a means to get better... make more content like that and make it more appealing. Right now Yoshi is too busy appeasing the very minute minority of raiders at the expense of all other players by making most of the content stream roll easy.

Ex primals are medium difficultly baring Titan and Ramuh

I also think Turn 5 with 110 and echo is medium difficultly now

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

I miss 2.0 when coil T1-4 was difficult, yet could be done without a static. While PUGs failed most of the time, it was still possible for those without statics and much playing time to progress up through t4. Those of us with little time could still progress but not as fast as those with statics. One week you would make it all the way through t4, the next you would only get past t2. It was a nice challenge for those who were not hardcore raiders. None of that is happening now, either have a static or you are getting nowhere with coil. I hope they figure out a better lockout system to get away from this.

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Casuals didn't really didn't start doing coil till like the CT patch 2.1 when they figured out how to cheese T2 with the enrage strat. Back then I was like people using an enrage strat in T2 to bypass almost all the mechanics won't get much farther in the game because passing rot is a very simple mechanic compared to what they throw at you in T5 and beyond. Honestly these people did themselves a disservice by not learning how to do it the correct way and it shows with how far they progressed in coil, because they lack raid awareness.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Casuals didn't really didn't start doing coil till like the CT patch 2.1 when they figured out how to cheese T2 with the enrage strat. Back then I was like people using an enrage strat in T2 to bypass almost all the mechanics won't get much farther in the game because passing rot is a very simple mechanic compared to what they throw at you in T5 and beyond. Honestly these people did themselves a disservice by not learning how to do it the correct way and it shows with how far they progressed in coil, because they lack raid awareness.

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Perhaps you should ask SE about making the boss explode when enrage, making that strategy impossibly because the dameg would exeeced even an i130 Tanks's Heath, let alone any group of healer's capacity to heal.

Also make it all at once instead of a gradual (and though cheesable) DoT.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Perhaps you should ask SE about making the boss explode when enrage, making that strategy impossibly because the dameg would exeeced even an i130 Tanks's Heath, let alone any group of healer's capacity to heal.

Also make it all at once instead of a gradual (and though cheesable) DoT.

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Seeing as to how clearance of T2 is not required to continue progression in coil, chances are likely that if SE makes it more 'challenging' than it currently is, it'll probably no longer be done at all :p.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Ex primals are medium difficultly baring Titan and Ramuh

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You should read the OP before posting.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

I also think Turn 5 with 110 and echo is medium difficultly now

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You should really read the OP before double-posting!

Game needs this. The difficulty curves are all out of whack & SE only seems to cater to complete novices or to the extreme.

We need "casual-hard" medium difficulty content.

Midcore as some would say.

Who's fault is it really that it seems like maybe 5% of the people can actually beat the fights in the game on a consistent basis. I been trying to farm ponies. Its really hard to get a competent group together unless it is a FC group. It is not fun trying to do this stuff in a pug group and I don't think I will ever get a pony. Not enough interest in FC to make primal farm group. We would win almost 100% of the time in a FC group.

Lets look at EX primals for example. There are 3 things that a lot of FFXIV players lack that cause wipes.

1. Coordination.
Now this is a killer in fights like Rahmu EX for example. People have to be very coordinated to be successful. A player bait the mind control have both people move to a spot behind the boss and finally another person who is getting hit with the lighting has to go to the 2 mind controlled players and brake them out.

2. Raid Awareness
A lot of players are not aware of what is happening around them. I seen countless dps run the eruptions to the healer who has the aoe debuff on Ifrit EX and kill themselves as well as hit the healer with eruption. Garuda EX the amount of people who miss target the spiny plume and kill it because they didn't know they were targeting it or did aoe on accident is crazy. Run to the wrong spot on Shiva EX during Staff phase after we assigned spots for everyone in the group killing the other 2 people who were in the right spot. I seen people die during adds on rahmu because they don't move out of the water when he is doing his lightning attack.

3. Poor response time to twitch mechanics.
I seen so many people stand in plumes or landslide on Titan EX. I never get hit by this stuff I know when its coming out because it has a script and does the same moves. People do not anticipate bomb detonation patterns and die to bombs. Leviathan people do not move out of the way from where Levithan's water spouts are and get hit off the boat.

As a player who has beat all these EX fights several times it is not fun to go in with players that will wipe you a bunch for the above reason.
Should SE do something about players that aren't quite good enough to do stuff like EX primals? Make them easier what is the solution? The thing is EX primals have sought after mount drops that keep people like me doing them over and over when I see a group but then I never win the roll in the end when mounts drop.

^more mid-grade difficulty would help with this too as it'd be more of a graduation from easy content into progressively more difficult content instead of putting people off by being too big a jump.

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Originally Posted by Toodles

You should read the OP before posting.



You should really read the OP before double-posting!

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I was agreeing

^oh I see haha well then!

People thinking 2.41 will nerf some dungeon bosses.

I swear, if they make 4-mans any easier again.....

Camate, difficulty options being evaluated/looked into?