SO Shiva..

If my my olde English is up to Par, Shiva had sex with a dragon and therefore was executed by the Ishgardians? If yes, wtf is wrong with you Shiva Q_Q?

Also I think we will see more of Shiva in the expansion if she was friendly with the Dragons.

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Originally Posted by melflomil

If my my olde English is up to Par, Shiva had sex with a dragon and therefore was executed by the Ishgardians? If yes, wtf is wrong with you Shiva Q_Q?

Also I think we will see more of Shiva in the expansion if she was friendly with the Dragons.

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Like to point out that the dragons are clearly sapient beings, capable of intelligent thought. It would probably not be seen as bestiality but since Ishgard hates dragons as much as Westboro hates gays the affair would still be a capital sin to them.

As for if we see Shiva again, it's possible if they want to revisit the primals (for Omega Weapon) but apart for some sort of new difficulty for trials I'm not seeing it happening

What's wrong with Shiva? Well, when a heretic saint and a dragon love each other very much they do a special 'hug'- and that's as far I am willing to go with that joke.

As many have stated before even Minfilia commented on the logistical... concerns of such a union. So either there is more to the scale-y beasts then meets the eye or cross-breeding is possible between everything and anything that is a living creature (which then brings up serious some questions about who were miqo'te ancestors).

We definitely will see, or at least read of, more about her and her connection with the dragons. I'm curious to find out how and why she ended up doing the horizontal hustle with a glorified fire (or lightning) breathing lizard.

Once you go dragon, you'll always be braggin'.

Yugiri is Shiva's descendant confirmed.

http://trdforums.org/attachments/tro...eek2-png.1766/

Keep in mind that dragons are noted as being skilled in glamours. It's not uncommon in many fictions for dragons to be able to assume the forms of humans. Much as the heretics can assume the forms of dragons, is it not unreasonable to assume a dragon assumed the form of a man, and Shiva KNEW that when she lay with him? That way you all don't have to worry about the size elements or the bestiality part.

You guys tryin' t' tell me dragons be mammals?

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Originally Posted by lilirulu

So either there is more to the scale-y beasts then meets the eye or cross-breeding is possible between everything and anything that is a living creature (which then brings up serious some questions about who were miqo'te ancestors).

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

You guys tryin' t' tell me dragons be mammals?

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Nobody said that there was the possibility of offspring. Just because she got freaky with a dragon (according to myth, anyway) doesn't mean it was a fertile pairing.

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Originally Posted by Lusavari

Keep in mind that dragons are noted as being skilled in glamours. It's not uncommon in many fictions for dragons to be able to assume the forms of humans. Much as the heretics can assume the forms of dragons, is it not unreasonable to assume a dragon assumed the form of a man, and Shiva KNEW that when she lay with him? That way you all don't have to worry about the size elements or the bestiality part.

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Makes Sense Shiva loves the "cold" blooded beings

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Yugiri is Shiva's descendant confirmed.

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Ah you beat me to it, I was going to suggest that Yugiri might be a decedent of SHiva

It's definitely an odd thing. And yeah, shapeshifting seems the most likely answer, assuming that the answer hasn't been distorted through the ages. Given the importance of Ishgard coming up and the rest, I imagine we'll get some answers soon enough.

We know dragons can shapeshift into humans, as seen in the Coerthas section of the main story. But there are also smaller dragons she could have slept with, like a smaller wyvern, or the aevis type enemies.
Besides that, we don't even know if it's completely true. Remember that they're taking the history of Shiva from her archenemy.

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Originally Posted by Sholah

We know dragons can shapeshift into humans, as seen in the Coerthas section of the main story. But there are also smaller dragons she could have slept with, like a smaller wyvern, or the aevis type enemies.
Besides that, we don't even know if it's completely true. Remember that they're taking the history of Shiva from her archenemy.

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Indeed History is written by the winners.

This has me wondering if we'll find out more about Shiva soon enough.

You know I really wouldn't be too surprised if the union between dragon (midgardsomar) produced a child, maybe even a hybrid race that yugiri may be descended on.

That way there can still be 5 races since one is offshoot of another.

I have a theory that the offspring of Shive is being held by ishgard and that her lover was actually Midgardsomar. At the very least the key to reviving Midgardsomar might be in Ishgard.

I don't think we should take the legend of Saint Shiva so literally. The account of her lying with a dragon could well just be a metaphor for collaborating with them.

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

I don't think we should take the legend of Saint Shiva so literally. The account of her lying with a dragon could well just be a metaphor for collaborating with them.

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Or even just straight propaganda or mythologizing.

Gee you actually believe that honestly? None of us even know what "Laying with a dragon" actually means it could anything all we have is speculation which does not really help with lore what we need is real answers some hints or confirmations before we make assumptions of meanings.

So nobody remembers Odzmanouk or Areuhat from XI or the majority of Greek and Roman mythology, in detail? I understood it as a one sided tale that provides justification to pronounce her a heretic. If it started as a metaphor that became a literal fact over time, who knows. As for the Shiva summoning it looked more like Iceheart was Shiva or very least an avatar being used by Shiva. My impression was the crystals was probably going to be used for something else given her dialog during and after the fight. Therefore everything about Shiva now is just based on one specific point of view. She could have been used as an explanation to why some heretics can change into dragons, or had originally been part of whatever lore was/is connected to Silvertear lake.


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"Secrets and Lies, Secrets and Lies, that _____ is naught more than a miserable pile of Secrets and Lies!" ---Gigi (sort of)

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Nobody said that there was the possibility of offspring. Just because she got freaky with a dragon (according to myth, anyway) doesn't mean it was a fertile pairing.

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The enemies in SV and SC that transform into dragons are what make me assume that there was some sort of offspring from her union with dragons. The move is called 'Dragon's Blood' after all and is definitely something more then simple glamor used by other enemies which is relatively easily dispelled if you know what to look for.

And while the possibility of Shiva's myth being false. The dialogue in the game goes out of it's way to say that the one fact about her that is for certain that even her followers believe is that she "lay down with a dragon" and her followers even go so far to refer to it as a "blessed union". So, that does lend a lot of credence from a story perspective that this is the one fact that writers did want you to know that Shiva got busy with a dragon. Also, the statues in Shiva's arena also feel like something you'd do for a romantic union versus just two beings that formed an alliance.

(post limit is annoying)

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Originally Posted by Crystallis91

Gee you actually believe that honestly? None of us even know what "Laying with a dragon" actually means

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Err. . .no. The phrase "lie with a dragon" has a rather clear meaning. I mean, there's a tiny, tiny chance that it really does just mean that she lay down next to a dragon, but that usage would be phrased differently to avoid just such a confusion. To say that one person lay with another is to say that they had sex, and this is reflected in the reactions of the NPCs to the idea. None of them want to come right out and say it, but you can tell they're trying not to dwell too long on just how a human (or Elezen, I guess) woman manages to have intercourse with a dragon.

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Originally Posted by Minfilia

She lay down with a dragon--the gravest of all sins, according to the Ishgardian faith. Yet in the eyes of Iceheart's followers, this was a holy act--the blessed union of man and dragon. How such a thing could even be possible is quite another question.

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Originally Posted by lilirulu

The enemies in SV and SC that transform into dragons are what make me assume that there was some sort of offspring from her union with dragons.

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Hmm. . .not quite sure what to make of the transformation. I can see your side, but had you asked me before this patch what I thought of it, I would have said that I thought it was just powerful magic granted to devote believers. It could well be in the same line as how the voidsent in Haukke hard manage to turn normal Wood Wailers into more voidsent.

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Originally Posted by lilirulu

The dialogue in the game goes out of it's way to say that the one fact about her that is for certain that even her followers believe is that she "lay down with a dragon"

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Well, it's well established that everyone believes that. While I'm accepting the story myself, I still see room for it to be the case that the truth really has been entirely lost at this point.

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Originally Posted by lilirulu

(post limit is annoying)

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If you mean the 1,000 character limit, just do what I'm about to do. Type your message in Notepad or something, post a message on the board saying "edit incoming" or something, then copy/paste your message into an edit. Edits bypass the character limit.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Yugiri is Shiva's descendant confirmed.

http://trdforums.org/attachments/tro...eek2-png.1766/

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Wait. Really? Where?

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Originally Posted by RickiFake02

Wait. Really? Where?

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Take a long hard look at his post and the truth will set you free :p

Well it might not mean much, but Yugiri does say that there are Sacred Snowcapped mountains similar to Coerthas where blood mustn't be spilled, and that there was too much bloodshed in Coerthas.

But most importantly, the presence of heretic harriers in Mor Dhona makes sense now

About Shiva and her dragonosexuality, in the french version of the game it's clearly stated that she had sex with a dragon, to symbolize the union between men and dragons and the possibility of a peace in this neverending war ( Which the Ishgard writters apprently tried to hide ), Shiva's last word when you kill her could also be translated as "I wish I could fly with you my beloved" clearly stating that she was in love with that dragon.

Freaking English translation. Koji fox or Michael J fox, not sure what name you go by, please explain this.

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

I don't think we should take the legend of Saint Shiva so literally. The account of her lying with a dragon could well just be a metaphor for collaborating with them.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Or even just straight propaganda or mythologizing.

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Those were my thoughts as well.
In medieval times it was often said that witches 'lay with the devil'. I assumed this to be a similar thing. She allied herself with the dragons, and in time tales about her probably got worse and evolved into this.

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Originally Posted by lololink

Shiva's last word when you kill her could also be translated as "I wish I could fly with you my beloved" clearly stating that she was in love with that dragon.

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She says something similar in English. I think she says "I'm sorry my beloved" (?).
So maybe there really was more to it, but for now I am sticking with the theory that she merely sides herself with the dragons, and not literally slept with one.

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Originally Posted by Alice_89th

Those were my thoughts as well.
In medieval times it was often said that witches 'lay with the devil'. I assumed this to be a similar thing. She allied herself with the dragons, and in time tales about her probably got worse and evolved into this.

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This isn't a great counterexample. When this quote was used in midieval times, the accusation was being made that the witch actually did have physical sex with infernal beings. It wasn't just a phrase implying an alliance with Satan - it was believed that witches gained their magical powers by having sexual intercourse with demons. Belief in such creatures was very strong back then, so accusations of that sort were taken very seriously.

It COULD be being used euphemistically here, but I find it much more likely that the Ishgardians believe there was actual sex involved, and are not using the phrase euphemistically. And regardless - why the hangups about it? Dragons are intelligent beings, so a lot of the negative connotations of beastiality don't come into play (essentially, using a living creature as a sex toy).

If it's the idea of tiny human / giant lizard that's squicky, we already know from the main scenario quests in Coerthas that dragons can take on human form; there's no reason to believe that actual kinky lizard sex was involved. She and a dragon became romantically involved, and when sex came into play the dragon most likely transformed into a more compatable form for both their sakes.

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Originally Posted by lololink

Shiva's last word when you kill her could also be translated as "I wish I could fly with you my beloved" clearly stating that she was in love with that dragon.

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She says something similar to this in Japanese too EXCEPT she specifically mentions that her beloved is a dragon. "あぁ、愛しき竜よ・・・　永遠に・・・" (Aagh, my beloved dragon... forever...)

In english she says "forgive them my beloved...." when we defeat her

It seems like no matter the translation she thinks of her lover. Which leads me to a question: is her dragon lover dead? She never says something like "I can finally be with you."

Its certainly possible the dragon is still alive and was probably of high rank. Afterall, motions peace are usually set by those in higher rank/ lead by example.

Think: FFX Seymours parents and other Tropes of interracial peace talks

I just searched a german video of the fight, even checked hard and extreme mode cuz..... At the end she says "Meine Drachen....Euch muss der letzte....Sieg gehören" which translates into "My dragons...the last victory...must be yours" ish. I guess the "My dragons" part would be translated into "My brothers" but I just translated quite literally.
WELPS I really hope this is mistranslated. I liked the idea of her thinking of her lover bebeh whenever she is defeated. Makes me glad I use the english client of the game.

Well, one thing to consider is that whether or not Shiva did anything with a dragon, her followers think she did. So whether she did or not, since that was what she was summoned with in mind, I imagine that's how she'd act. I'm sure we'll find out more in time though.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Yugiri is Shiva's descendant confirmed.

http://trdforums.org/attachments/tro...eek2-png.1766/

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A friend and i actually considered that possibility when discussing Shivas affair of heretical proportions. Maybe yugiri refuses to show her face just yet because she knows of ishgards war with the dragons, or is in fact a descendant of shiva.
Oh quick edit i almost forgot. If that is what it is, it would open up the possiblity of a gria like race being added in the expansion.

If Yugiri's race is draconian, it makes me wonder if players of that race will have different dialogue and reactions from Ishgardians.

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Originally Posted by Sholah

If Yugiri's race is draconian, it makes me wonder if players of that race will have different dialogue and reactions from Ishgardians.

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If that do I'd bet 5000 gil that for players f that race most of the NPCs from Coerthas will be hostile and the harriers outside the Vigils will be friendly

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

If that do I'd bet 5000 gil that for players f that race most of the NPCs from Coerthas will be hostile and the harriers outside the Vigils will be friendly

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And I bet you 5 millions gils it won't.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

This isn't a great counterexample. When this quote was used in midieval times, the accusation was being made that the witch actually did have physical sex with infernal beings. It wasn't just a phrase implying an alliance with Satan - it was believed that witches gained their magical powers by having sexual intercourse with demons. Belief in such creatures was very strong back then, so accusations of that sort were taken very seriously.

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True. But as the real world seems to lack the presence of any demonic beings those accusations were still ungrounded. People said that was the source of her supposed magical powers, but without any proof of a witch actually doing so. It was the fear of supernatural things that made them say a with slept with the devil. Fear, dislike, hostility, and superstition leading to accusations of sex with the devil.

In Ishgard's words, she laid down with a Dragon. In Iceheart's words, she tried to made peace.

With this, we can say either Shiva conspired with the Dravidian Horde or she associated with them, much in the same way our Hero does with the Beastmen Tribes of today.

In any event, there is always a kernel of truth in legend, and I am quite inclined to believe that when Ishgard says Shiva had sex with a Dragon it means that Shiva had sex with a dragon. Shiva could just have fallen in love with a Dragon unwittingly, accepting it when the truth was revealed. An act of love would be a great signal of a peaceful union; an act of debauchery with the enemy would a great signal of depraved lunacy and treason.

I just want to know which Dragon are we talking of.

We saw humans turn into the flightless wyrms... I don't think they are true dragons. There seems to be at least two species, the two legged, winged ones and the four legged winged ones. Granted, dragons being able to shapeshift to human forms is a staple of fantasy, but as of yet I don't think we've seen 'true' dragons do it. I'd love some more clarifiction on this if I missed it, as Ferne did say at fan fest we'd learn more about the shapechangers in this patch (during the interview with gamerescape).

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Originally Posted by Grayve

We saw humans turn into the flightless wyrms... I don't think they are true dragons. There seems to be at least two species, the two legged, winged ones and the four legged winged ones. Granted, dragons being able to shapeshift to human forms is a staple of fantasy, but as of yet I don't think we've seen 'true' dragons do it. I'd love some more clarifiction on this if I missed it, as Ferne did say at fan fest we'd learn more about the shapechangers in this patch (during the interview with gamerescape).

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We actually have seen dragons shapeshift into humans during the Coerthas section of the main storyline. Until we are told otherwise, I'm going to assume that the "Dragon Blood" users are just dragons turning back into their true form.

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Originally Posted by Sholah

We actually have seen dragons shapeshift into humans during the Coerthas section of the main storyline. Until we are told otherwise, I'm going to assume that the "Dragon Blood" users are just dragons turning back into their true form.

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Ah, we were? Good to know, it's been so long since I finished the main quest I'd forgotten.

Several of the Elezen mobs in Stone Vigil HM also turn into dragons if you don't kill them fast enough. Though to be honest, all the NPCs calling it a 'glamour' confuses me as to whether this process is just an illusion or an actual physical transformation. Can all heretics of a certain 'rank' do this? Is it an ability that dragons bestow on them through some kind of magical means?