Hey, first of I'm new to the lore thread, and I have not completed 2.4 main story, the 2nd or 3rd coils or all of the primals EX (excluding Garuda) and I never played 1.0 so a lot of my info and speculation may be way off or completely wrong.
To start off here is what I have found out so far:
Primals
-Beings of aether summoned through an abundance aether and prayer.
- Odin, a primal of a warrior who changes form into the last person who defeated him.
-Great King Moogle Mog, a being of aether summoned in a similar manner to primals, even though he was not a primal (at least before his summoning) and simply a legend among moogles.
-Egis, a smal part primal summoned by Summoners to help them in combat.
-Their purposes: to defend or fight for those who summoned them.
-Need continuous aether and prayers to remain in the mortal realm (most likey reason why they temper mortal).
-Primals with enough aether can summon lesser aspects of themselves like Suparna and Chirada, and egis.
Crystals of Light and Darkness
-Crystals are the physical manifestation of aether, when there is an abundance of aether in the area.
-Hydaelyn, Crystal of Light, controls the lifestream and grants the power of echo to her chosen mortals.
-Zodiark, Crystal of Darkness, Ascians, possible controls a different aether/lifestream.
-Hydaeyn is able to exert her power through the Elemental Primals crystals (as seen in the fight with the Ultima weapon).
-Zodiark seems to have been sealed or banished from the world of Hydaelyn.
Bahamut
-Non-elemental primal of dragons.
-His core/heart seems to be a crystal of darkness.
-Elder primal.
-Able to manipulate the flow of aether.
The Twelve
-Able to be summoned like primals.
-Associated to elements like most primals.
-Summoned at The Battle of Carteneau as their symbols.
The Void
-Ascians have summoned voidkin to fight for them before.
-Voidkins aether is rejected by Hydealyns lifestream.
Conclusions and Theories
-Primals and gods are the prayers and belief of mortals given form through the aether.
-Mortals existed before primals and "gods", their life springing form the Aetheral Sea (gonna call it that for short since life in this world sprang from the primordial sea and it's easier than saying the pool of aether at the start of time:p)
-Hydaelyn and Zodiark were the first forms given splitting the Aetheral Sea into to their two lifestreams and aetheral realms.
-Voidkin are possible a part of Zodiarks lifestream hence why their aether is rejected from the world now that Zodiark is sealed or banished from it.
-Primals we have faced are created from the aether from Hydaelyns aetheral realm. Bahamut (and possible Odin) are created through aether from Zodiarks aetheral realm. (Just read a post saying Bahamut was killed at Carteneau and was re-summoned by Dalamunds fragments so this is unlikely, still leave it here just in case).
-The Twelve are the same beings as primals given different form and purpose through differing prayers and belief of the people summoning them.
-The Ascians are making the Warrior of Light stronger in order to defeat Bahamut in order to re-establish a link between the world and Zodiraks when the enormous aether Bahamuts composed of tries to return to Zodiarks aetheral realm (once again unlikely due to Bahamut having died once at Carteneau, however Bahamut may be powerful enough that even the smallest connection (which the Ascians seem to use) to the world is enough for him to be summoned, and killing and re-summoning him may widen that connection).
-Similar to how Hydaelyn stops the Warriors of light aether from returing to her aetheral realm, Zodiark does the same for the Asciens, however because he is no longer connected to the world they exist in the space in between, possible meaning they are Warriors of Darkness.
-The Aetheral Sea was conscious (at least enough for memories from the beginning to remain in the aether) and neutral showing no aspects or all of them (because Ramuh metions he (a being of aether) remembers a time before light ane dark). Hydaelyn and Zodiark have multiple aspects, Light and dark, Life and Death, Creation and Destruction. The primals are smaller aspects of Hydaelyn and Zodiarks aether, the Elemental primals are a part of nature therefore a part of Hydaelyns life and creation aspect. Bahamut could be a part of Zodiarks aspect of death and destruction.
-Elder primals are primals that have not been seen for a very long time, either because they are sealed or trapped in Zodiarks aetheral realm.
-Another possibility is that Elder primals are (in a kind of primal/God hierarchy) between Hydaelyn/Zodiark and lesser primals this would explain how Bahamut is able to control the flow of aether like how Hydaelyn controls the lifestream (possible why Odin does not need people to gather crystals for him to be summoned).
Well that's it thanks for reading, like I said I am new to the lore thread and may have missed some important facts, feel free to correct or debunk my theories :D.
*Edit
Men Among Gods
-When fighting Odin he says: "Here I stand--a god amongst men. Yet here I remain--a mere man amongst gods".
-Louisoix gain becomes the Primal Phoenix after gaining an immense amount of aether (and possible prayers of the people wishing to be protected from the fall of Dalamund and Bahamut).
-Shiva, originally a mortal woman condemned for sleeping with a dragon, this act led to the heretics venerating her as Saint Shiva.
-Good King Moggle Mog XII, a legend among the moogles of their king who lowered his subjects to the lands of the mortals when war erupted in heaven. (Most likely only an legened at that there was no original Good King Moggle Mog XII, I'll leave it here just in case).
Birth of primals theories:
- I believe that primals are created through strong worship and belief in things as stated in the theories above. The would elemental primals are born of worship of the natural elements and forces of nature.
-Also I believe that mortals can attain primalhood?/godhood? through enough worship and aether, the three prime examples being Pheonix, odin and Shiva. How this is possible is because mortals souls/life-energy comes from the aether so with the collection of enough aether or rejoining the lifestream and the prayers of mortal they can become primals. Why I don't believe all primals to have once been mortals is because Ramuh states he remebers a time before man.
Primals, Gods and others (Possible Spoilers)
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11-05-2014, 06:43 AMKyle2006Primals, Gods and others (Possible Spoilers)
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11-05-2014, 09:39 PMTinyRedLeaf
I don't think there's a link between darkness and the Void, although it seems intuitive there should be one.
The Void is just that: Nothingness.
Darkness, on the other hand, implies the existence of Light. Something exists and, therefore, it is not void.
According to the Lore Train, it is such a massive undertaking to summon any one of the Twelve, that Louisoix decided to hold back, and summon only a fraction of the deities' strength to stop Bahamut.
So, I don't know what the Twelve actually are. To me, they're much, much more than mere gods. They are the personifications of the very principles that make civilisation possible:
In contrast to the Twelve, the primals appear so much more basic, being no more than representations of simple elements and concepts.
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Existence began the moment Time (Althyk) appeared.
Time and Fate (Nymeia) are intertwined, and from their coupling came our Love (Menphina) of life, and our desire to know (Azeyma).
Fate decrees not just our paths in life, but also its Destruction (Rhalgr).
War (Halone) and creation have ever been the children of Destruction.
Thankfully, when Inquiry was married with Knowledge (Thaliak), peaceful pursuits like Agriculture (Nophica) and Navigation (Llymlaen) were born.
And with sound instruction, creation became useful Industry (Bryegot).
But the Love of Travel (Oschon) may still lead others to Trade and Commerce (Nald'thal), or to battle in faraway places.
And wandering warriors will ever remain the enemies of settled civilisations*.
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*P/S:
My reflections on the Eorzean pantheon were inspired by The Endless of Neil Gaiman's Sandman comics.
The Wikipedia entry describes The Endless (Destiny, Death, Dream, Desire, Despair, Destruction and Delirium) as such:
And indeed, the graphic novels would go on to show how gods are born in the Dreaming, the realm of Dream. They come into existence in much the same way that primals are apparently born in Eorzea: through the simple act of belief. Whatever you can dream of would exist in the Dreaming. And given enough worship, the entities of the realm may become gods, and can also die when no one believes in them any more.Quote:
They are a group of beings who embody powerful forces or aspects of the universe of The Sandman, by Neil Gaiman. They have existed since the dawn of time and are thought to be among the most powerful beings in the universe. They are distinct from, and supposedly more powerful, than most gods.
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11-05-2014, 11:55 PMKyle2006
I also don't really believe that the void is part of Zodiarks faction. Like the Garleans I believe them to be a separate threat that were used by the Ascians, similar to how they used Gaius Van Baelsar and the Ultima weapon to further their own ends. However I thought I should post this theory to look at it from another possible perspective, because though I also belive the void to represent nothingness/oblivion (possible the vacuum between realms) , it is also linked to the Cloud of Darkeness, and most voidkin use elemental dark magic.
On the Twelve, I didn't mean to make them sound like simple primals, however to say they are similar beings born from the aether from prayers of the people. I primarily got this idea from how the Acians tried to make the Ala Mihgans summon Rhalgr , and how Gaius questions the faith of The Twelve and denounces the Gods calling them no better then the Beastmen and their Primals. -
11-06-2014, 03:52 PMDeds
About the part of the ascians trying to make the WoL stronger...
Hmmmm I actually have a theory about that part.
At some point of the main story quests they mention that Hydaelyn is getting weaker, and that she spent a lot of power to protect us from Ultima Weapon. Minfilia also notices that Hydaelyn has been really quiet, indicating that she is indeed weaker. It is clear that the Ascians want Hydaelyn to get weaker, but how are they doing this?
My theory is that the Ascians are behind all of the Calamities. Hydaelyn gets weaker because she has to heal th planet after a Calamity. All of the known Calamities had something to do with humans (e.g. War of the Magi, the earthquake that destroyed Allag, Dalamud´s fall). It is plausible that the Ascians manipulated the events so they would end up causing massive destruction.
So basically the Ascian´ plan is to weaken Hydaelyn with the calamities until she can´t hold Zodiark anymore, which looks like it´s about to happen. D: -
11-06-2014, 03:59 PMEnkidohInteresting theory, and it's actually not far from the truth - Lahabrea actually mentions how and why Hydaelyn is being weakened during his big 'the reason you suck speech' in the Praetorium (although given the fact so many players just skip that scene and get straight onto the battle it's no wonder players miss this important story dialogue):Quote:
Originally Posted by Deds
Quote:
Originally Posted by main scenario quest 'The Ultimate Weapon'
So yeah, you weren't far off the mark -Hydaelyn is being weakened through an increase in chaotic energy released through the constant and relentless summoning of the Primals - this also explains recent events as well - the Ascians trying to 'upset the apple cart' and increase the amount of chaos in the planet in order to try and 'overload her' so to speak to allow Zodiark's rebirth and thus take out the Mothercrystal once and for all.
Either way, as Warriors of Light we're going to have our hands full making sure this does not happen. :( -
11-06-2014, 04:34 PMDeds
Yeah, I remember that. hahaha
But I think the primals are just the last part of the plan.
I have another theory about that! haha
Hydaelyn sealed Zodiark, the Ascians try to break the seal by making Hydaelyn weaker. By the time of the Allagan civilization, someone managed to learn how to summon primals, causing destruction and weakening Hydaelyn. A seal was created at Mor Dhona (probably because of the concentration of aether in that area) that somehow prevent primals to be summoned. Two things would be necessary to break it: a huge damage to it and Hydaelyn lacking strength to repair it. The Ascians cause the Calamities and also influence Ishgardians and Dravanians to become enemies. Later, Garleans would kill Midgardsormr, unleashing an enormous amount of aether that would destroy the seal (because Hydaelyn is weak after four (?) calamities) and allow primals to be summoned again.
So they plan to summon primals and slowly (though faster than before) destroy Hydaelyn. -
11-06-2014, 04:35 PMDeds
I think they also mention that Lahabrea`s actions weren`t exactly planned (correct me if I am mistaken), but actually helped them because Hydaelyn spent more energy to protect the Warrior of Light and destroying the Ultima Weapon.
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11-06-2014, 07:07 PMEnkidoh
Well, it seems he definitely did plan everything - the only thing he didn't count on was 'Hydaelyn's minion' (ala, the player) to be so damn stubborn and not simply roll over and die like he thought we would.
He also didn't think that we would be able to take down single-handedly Gaius and the Ultima Weapon. But like every good villain worth his salt, he can easily and simply adjust his plan to compensate for changed circumstances. (I really need to stop going on that site :p).
It definitely seems like his new goal is not to defeat us (as he knows that's no longer a possibility), but instead to break us and bend us to his will. And given the precedent going back to version 1.0 and Minfilia's comments about "the shameful truth" found "at the end of the Path" (as in, mastery of the Echo), this may be his end game.
Either way, these are interesting times indeed for Eorzea... -
11-07-2014, 01:32 AMMorningstar1337
There's something I'm wondering about though. By the time we faced Ramuh, The Warriors of Light became world famous, our epic deeds known through the world We commited multiple deicides, slayed countless threats and mastered various disciplines
. We also revived various legendary weapons, explored several ruins and generally helped people.and those that did Coil to the very end, possibly took out the most dangerous primal to date
All of this has me wondering if the Asceans are trying to force Apotheosis on the PCs or more likely, merge them with Zordiark to use Erorzea's faith in the Warriors for a huge power boost. -
11-07-2014, 02:44 AMKyle2006Interesting theory , I have read theories where people believe the Acsians are trying to strengthen the WoL in order for them to become a vessal Zodiark however mostly dismissed them since it seems to much of a risk to strengthen a known servent of Hydaelyn when you could just strengthen someone like Gaius. Aeatheral beings such as primals (and I assume Zodiark and Hydaelyn) require both aether and faith to exist and strengthen them. The WoL is pratacly a legend now so as you said the Erozians faith in them could strengethen Zodiark if they merge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morningstar1337
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11-07-2014, 04:18 AMDeds
Well they COULD end up acting like Shiva and just using a person as a vessel, but indeed it doesn't make much sense because, as Kyle said, they could've used Gaius and the person seems to keep be able to command the new power. But we're talking about a primal and a 'god' so idk, maybe the god would get complete control of the vessel.
Maybe they're just making us stronger so Hydaelyn is forced to spend energ fiing the planet AND helping us. -
11-07-2014, 04:54 AMKyle2006Good theory, I didn't think about the possibility that Hydalyn was using a good portion of her aether to heal the world. However I don't believe that all calamities were caused by the Ascians, man is more than capable of bringing calamity on themselves, however I do think your on to something about the ascians causing mayhem (and possible a few calamities) to damage the world in order to weaken Hydaelyn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deds
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11-07-2014, 05:58 PMEnkidohIf that is indeed the Ascians' ultimate plan for us, then it's clearly something they didn't plan at first - for most of the pre-Praetorium storyline every time Lahabrea and other Ascians interacted with the player or were shown talking about them, they seemed to regard the adventurer as nothing but a stubborn thorn in their side and that they fully intended to kill us as a result. Case in point, the first encounter with Lahabrea at the end of the Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak:Quote:
Originally Posted by Morningstar1337
Then there was his comments just beforeQuote:
Originally Posted by main scenario quest 'Into the Beast's Maw'
attacking the player in the Praetorium after destroying the Ultima Weapon (which follows on from the quote in my earlier post).
Quote:
Originally Posted by main scenario quest 'The Ultimate Weapon'
For much of the game, Lahabrea just seemed to think we were nothing but a mild annoyance at best and stubborn at worse - in any event, he severely underestimated the Mothercrystal's potency compared to his own power, and the rest is history as they say. Hence if they are now trying to corrupt us to their will, it's clearly a change they made in their original plans. -
11-08-2014, 01:36 AMDeds
Oh, maybe they really didn't plan on using us at the beginning.
Another interesting thing is that they don't seem to know exactly how the Echo works. Remember that Ascian dressed in white that used the "Ardor" against Minfilia? He seems surprised that the Echo protected her against that move. Probably that Ardor is Zodiark's "Echo", and the Ascians use a lot of its true potential, while we're still discouvering what's up with the Echo. Maybe that's the reason they're making us stronger: to discouver the true potential of the Echo.