Feint Skill

Hello All... where here is another one of my posts :) so here i go

Do you guys think the "Feint" skill deserves a second version of it ? "Feint II" i mean compare to the other skill this one seem kinda weak (keep in mind im posting this BEFORE THE PATCH 1.18a no damage upgrade) , i do like to use it and i love in all MEELE classes (archer included).

Whats your opinion on it !?

Not really. Feint already is even in power to tier II 500TP WSs...i don't think a Feint II is needed...at least for now.

Feint II, Rank 99
http://ffxiv.yg.com/skill/feint-ii?id=27708

Feint is probably quite competitive up to R50 as it is. It was nerfed from being only 250 TP because it was too good, though to be honest that was back when accuracy was much worse.

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Originally Posted by Holyomen

Feint II, Rank 99
http://ffxiv.yg.com/skill/feint-ii?id=27708

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Hmm yea i saw that a LONG LONG LONG time ago.. but really is this even Truth ? or was that Data mining?

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Originally Posted by Lauro

Hmm yea i saw that a LONG LONG LONG time ago.. but really is this even Truth ? or was that Data mining?

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It's data mined. The ability is in the game but not currently obtainable. It'll probably be made available some time in the future when the level cap is increased.

Personally, I liked feint even before 1.18a; It was one of those "I missed on WS (again)? Fine, take a Feint then." type of moves, good for guaranteed damage.

Now, as for Feint II, I don't think that we need one, per se, but it would be entirely useful. I think if there is one that gets added at a lower level (perhaps 40ish?), that it should keep in the same line of damage as Feint, but perhaps add in a debuff (- to monster evasion, for instance, feels right). That way it turns into a more utility skill, rather than just used for damage.

Feint is probably one of the worst Lancer skills. The only good thing about the skill is that it never misses, but with the new accuracy buff you won't need this skill.

Also it does a lot less damage than other Weaponskills. I tested it on Roadrunners (55-59) and Feint did ~440 damage while Skewer II and Moonrise II did ~650 damage.

Oh by the way, you can also forget your Doomspike II unless you fight a lower ranked mob, because Chaos Trust did a liitle bit more damage (on 2000TP) vs Doomspike II (3000TP) and when the enemy was below 20% it did 50% more damage than Doomspike II.

Feint costs 500 TP vs. Skewer II and Moonrise II which cost 1,000 TP...

If Feint is doing ~440 and the other two are doing ~650, Feint is far better for damage:TP ratio.

The accuracy buff was significant, but you will still miss and Feint will still be there.

Feint doesn't even find a place on my bar, and fated your argument only makes sense if you are missing on a regular basis, which most are not anymore.

I been sticking with Heavy Trammel, Twisting Vice, and now Leg Sweep as my normal TP skills, that added with using Pierce, heavy/full thrust when not on cooldowns and keeping InvII/CiAII up at all times and using buffs, I dont find I have time to use much of anything else anymore.

Feint is Awesome... Lancers do some of the best damage in the game. The only issue that arrises is that though it has so much modifying the amount of TP it gains... sometimes you miss.. and when they are very high lvled mobs your missing, it is nice to get a non miss attack for missing. I believe the damage Feint one gives is fine how it is. As i have noticed it seems to adjust fine as I lvl up Lancer. I always have a spot for feint. Alot of people have the high TP moves on there bar and forget this little guy. If you factor in the TP cost and recast of the move. Even if you hit most of the time it is still viable. as the damage it deals is about equal to the moves they use 1k tp for. and it can be triggered off tp moves aswell. so when your Leg sweep you used feroicity on to do alot of damage misses, you still get in a shot with feint to atleast make it worth it. and because fient went off. your auto attack is up and you got your tp back. Feint is a great skill, that seems to scale up just fine to the current lvl cap.

any skills that dont have second tiers could be held off for lvl increases. I believe their will be a howling vortex 2 one day.

Doomspike 2 is for Bloodbath combo.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

Feint doesn't even find a place on my bar, and fated your argument only makes sense if you are missing on a regular basis, which most are not anymore.

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Uh, no. Post 1.18 accuracy is less of an issue than it has been but you are still going to miss at least once per fight the majority of the time. On fights such as the NMs and dungeon bosses, you will miss much more than that because they are long fights.

Noata explained it better than I can.

Is everyone here insane? o.O Feint SUCKS

First of all the window is too short, I never managed to perform a single Feint in parties, I guess I just used it from 20 to 25 when I was killing a few stuff in solo.
Also it can't be used in BR and that's a HUGE limitation... if you really want to use some TP out of BR you should use skills like Comrade in Arms, Moonrise, Twisting Vice, wich cause considerable damage (except CiA) AND buff/debuff.

Lancers are powerfull in DD and have tons of TP but guys if you happen to use Feint often then you really have to reconsider your strategy.

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Originally Posted by Fated

Uh, no. Post 1.18 accuracy is less of an issue than it has been but you are still going to miss at least once per fight the majority of the time. On fights such as the NMs and dungeon bosses, you will miss much more than that because they are long fights.

Noata explained it better than I can.

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Well if you take the Example of "OGRE" and Batar from the Instance i can say NO ONE will land "EVERY" hit on the boss you will still miss and like someone said "feint will be there" :) . so far i like to equip it on Ogre , somehow i even manage to land a few "BR" with "Feint"

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Originally Posted by Alcide

First of all the window is too short, I never managed to perform a single Feint in parties, I guess I just used it from 20 to 25 when I was killing a few stuff in solo.

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I believe this is when we're allowed to utter the fabled two letters, so here goes: LP

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Originally Posted by Lauro

Well if you take the Example of "OGRE" and Batar from the Instance i can say NO ONE will land "EVERY" hit on the boss you will still miss and like someone said "feint will be there" :) . so far i like to equip it on Ogre , somehow i even manage to land a few "BR" with "Feint"

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Lancer is a DD/Support, you have to consider personal DPS vs. group DPS.
In NM fights, using Comrade in Arms will result in more WS from the whole party, using Moonrise II and Twisting Vice II will result in less DMG taken from tank/melee, so less stress on mages and more nukes, so Feint is just a waste of TP.
Also, Hawk's Eye, Still Precision and Keen Flurry are your friends, you're just not supposed to miss a WS :P and honestly I don't really care if I miss an auto attack.

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Originally Posted by Alcide

Lancer is a DD/Support, you have to consider personal DPS vs. group DPS.
In NM fights, using Comrade in Arms will result in more WS from the whole party, using Moonrise II and Twisting Vice II will result in less DMG taken from tank/melee, so less stress on mages and more nukes, so Feint is just a waste of TP.
Also, Hawk's Eye, Still Precision and Keen Flurry are your friends, you're just not supposed to miss a WS :P and honestly I don't really care if I miss an auto attack.

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Was about to post the same things you said xD

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Originally Posted by Fated

Uh, no. Post 1.18 accuracy is less of an issue than it has been but you are still going to miss at least once per fight the majority of the time. On fights such as the NMs and dungeon bosses, you will miss much more than that because they are long fights.

Noata explained it better than I can.

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well yeah there is always a chance but I cant afford feint there are other skills that take priority and my skill points are all used up by them.

what I dont like is the fact that things like heavy/full thrust do less damage then an auto attack :( pierce seems to do higher damage though.

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Originally Posted by Alcide

Lancer is a DD/Support, you have to consider personal DPS vs. group DPS.
In NM fights, using Comrade in Arms will result in more WS from the whole party, using Moonrise II and Twisting Vice II will result in less DMG taken from tank/melee, so less stress on mages and more nukes, so Feint is just a waste of TP.
Also, Hawk's Eye, Still Precision and Keen Flurry are your friends, you're just not supposed to miss a WS :P and honestly I don't really care if I miss an auto attack.

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I completely agree with this play style, though I am pumping out pretty good DPS my main focus is the group support.

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Originally Posted by Alcide

Lancer is a DD/Support, you have to consider personal DPS vs. group DPS.
In NM fights, using Comrade in Arms will result in more WS from the whole party, using Moonrise II and Twisting Vice II will result in less DMG taken from tank/melee, so less stress on mages and more nukes, so Feint is just a waste of TP.
Also, Hawk's Eye, Still Precision and Keen Flurry are your friends, you're just not supposed to miss a WS :P and honestly I don't really care if I miss an auto attack.

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If you have all those cooldowns available each time you use a weapon skill, your wasting your TP~ (and even then its not a 100% chance to hit)

Also, why does a high rank lancer mention comrade in arms when it comes to weapon skills and tp usage?
Its tp usage is low and it has a rather decent duration..
its not like its a skill that actually matters in terms of TP generation/drain.

The personal damage versus group damage is amusing.
People that support ''group damage'' always seem to forget that personal damage is a part of that same group damage. xd

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

If you have all those cooldowns available each time you use a weapon skill, your wasting your TP~ (and even then its not a 100% chance to hit)

Also, why does a high rank lancer mention comrade in arms when it comes to weapon skills and tp usage?
Its tp usage is low and it has a rather decent duration..
its not like its a skill that actually matters in terms of TP generation/drain.

The personal damage versus group damage is amusing.
People that support ''group damage'' always seem to forget that personal damage is a part of that same group damage. xd

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CiA increases TP generation it is relevant. If you don't provide adequate group support then you are a burden to your group and should be replaced by an archer.

lancers play a role in a group just as archers do. This for the group mindset seems a little out of place. The truth is a lancers moves inhibit, so even if they are trying to go for DPS they still aid the group. Everyones moves support a group. There should be no worry about supporting the group. the argument is on Fient and how it serves a lancer. It is cheap does decent damage and has a low recast. It is a good move for lancers. There is no point in arguing this with the flat statement of your not sapose to miss. Well no one wants to miss, It happens and will happen. I can guarentee you wont always hit. Since the lancer is meant to bring DPS and Debuffs to the group, being able to get a guarenteed hit after missing does nothing but Aid the lancer. It would be foolish to overlook a move like this because you want another 1000+ TP using Combat skill. Earlier there was a post about not caring about misisng an auto attack. How concieted can someone be to not realize that the entire reason they can use there TP skills is because that auto attack hit. Before you complain about how something is right or wrong. Have reasons why something is Inferior before you go disguarding it.

I know that this is not be the kindest of words and I am not specifically targeting anyone. I just am remarking on what I have observed over this thread.

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Originally Posted by Noata

Have reasons why something is Inferior before you go disguarding it.

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1. requires you to miss to activate.
2. acc is up missing happens way less now.
3. your argument about auto attack hitting is moot because feint has nothing to do with it, it misses you gain no TP and then you spend 500 to use feint.
4. your argument about inhibiting is moot since feint does nothing of the kind in fact using feint will decrease your inhibiting frequency.
5. there just isn't enough slot points to justify feint over something more reliable and useful.
6. with using pierce, full thrust, heavy thrust, invig II, CiAII, speed/life surge, twisting vice, heavy trammel, leg sweep, attack buffs, regiment buffs, healing, and enmity decreasing buffs on a regular basis finding time fro feint is not a priority, especially when you need that TP for better skills.

thats at least 6 reasons, I'm sure I could come up with more, I'm not saying no one should use Feint, just saying I will not be.

PS: your lancer is 26 at that rank I would use feint at 50 I would rather use other skills.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

1. requires you to miss to activate.
2. acc is up missing happens way less now.
3. your argument about auto attack hitting is moot because feint has nothing to do with it, it misses you gain no TP and then you spend 500 to use feint.
4. your argument about inhibiting is moot since feint does nothing of the kind in fact using feint will decrease your inhibiting frequency.
5. there just isn't enough slot points to justify feint over something more reliable and useful.
6. with using pierce, full thrust, heavy thrust, invig II, CiAII, speed/life surge, twisting vice, heavy trammel, leg sweep, attack buffs, regiment buffs, healing, and enmity decreasing buffs on a regular basis finding time fro feint is not a priority, especially when you need that TP for better skills.

thats at least 6 reasons, I'm sure I could come up with more, I'm not saying no one should use Feint, just saying I will not be.

PS: your lancer is 26 at that rank I would use feint at 50 I would rather use other skills.

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Totally agree. It's not that Feint is completely useless, it's just that it's got low priority and during NM fights I'm way too busy doing more important things, so putting it in the action bar and paying atention to the misses in order to use it (spending 500TP) sounds like a waste of time to me.

Obviousely if you're doing grind or anything else it's a good skill.


Also...

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lancers play a role in a group just as archers do. This for the group mindset seems a little out of place. The truth is a lancers moves inhibit, so even if they are trying to go for DPS they still aid the group. Everyones moves support a group.

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Absolutely false. Take a look at lancer's skills and compare them to the ones of the other DDs, you just can't say we've got the same role of an archer. Also, not every Lancer skill inhibit, you have to chose well how to spend your TP, depending on your playstyle, wich can be pure dps or dps/support (wich I prefer)

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There is no point in arguing this with the flat statement of your not sapose to miss. Earlier there was a post about not caring about misisng an auto attack. How concieted can someone be to not realize that the entire reason they can use there TP skills is because that auto attack hit.

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You've got 3 different buffs for accuracy, you just can't miss a WS. If you miss an auto attack then you're not getting TP and it's stupid to use an ability that uses TP IMHO (always during NM fights)

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The personal damage versus group damage is amusing.
People that support ''group damage'' always seem to forget that personal damage is a part of that same group damage. xd

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You really want to compare the amount of DPS the whole party will bring after CiA to Feint dmg? the TP cost is the same...
Also, keeping CiA and Moonrise II always up, spamming Twisting Vice II and joining BRs with Doomspike II I find it hard to belive you have the time to do anything else.

Ouch, getting attack hurts. but atleast it yielded results
However I would wish you would focus more on the Fient skill. as several of your reasons where picked from different parts of my post, which had nothing to do with the fient skill, but rather response to earlier posts in the thread.
1. Has to miss... that is the basis of the move.. cant you pick something like TP cost...
2. Accuracy is increased less likely to miss. once again not saying its always used but convienent to get extra dps.
3. CP cost, at lvl 34 my pugilist can have more then there entrie classes abilities, allowing for moves from other proffesions
i would like to think a lvl 50 would be able to do this as well.
I wont pretend to understand dps and how it is done at lvl 50. but i will say the ffxiv community has been theorizing and coming up with there own ideas and passing them as if they were facts. I really find it hard to believe having a bunch of moves you need to wait to get tp for should take priority over some other moves. Also since you can have life surge or speed surge, is it really necisary to have both on a bar. Life surge is for soloability. As a meager rank 26 Lancer even i know this. I will give you two points why you wont use the skill, because the first about missing is its entire purpose
your accuracy is high, and your bars are full of other cp moves. I am sorry that I seem like i am attacking back. I sorta am because i looked at your list and say you just took pieces of what i said and threw them in numbered order. some of which... my bad most of which had nothing to do with the move. I understand you dont use it. I think it depends on the situation. there is no absolute right or wrong setup. So i will let this thread die, I dont see anything productive coming from it

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Originally Posted by Krausus

CiA increases TP generation it is relevant. If you don't provide adequate group support then you are a burden to your group and should be replaced by an archer.

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Originally Posted by Alcide

You really want to compare the amount of DPS the whole party will bring after CiA to Feint dmg? the TP cost is the same...
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I know it happens a lot on these forums, but try to read what i actually typed.

Why are you mentioning CiA in the same breath as direct damage skills at all?
As i said before, its a debuff that has a low TP cost, and it lasts for a good amount of time.

It's TP cost over time doesnt begin to compare to that of any direct damage skill.

Or if that isnt spelled out enough:

CiA should be used period, and as such it serves no purpose at all to mention it when discussing TP uses of damage skills.

Back on topic:

Considering that Feint is a purely situational skill (you need to miss/get evaded for it to even be available for use),
saying that its useless outside of those conditions is kind of besides the point..

Feint is awesome when you're solo.
Red Lotus can't miss too, but it costs MP, twice as much TP, and does less damage than Feint.
Optimal time for using Feint is after multi hit abilities. Multishot, Barrage, Flurry, etc sometimes don't get all their hits in, so it's nice to follow it up for extra damage using Feint.

But if you're in a party or raid, then Feint's usefulness is diminished.

you are making a lot of assumptions, you can not compare how many abilities you can equip or want to use at 34 to 50. At 50 I dont have enough CP to equip everything that I want.

as for life surge it decreases your targets evasion, so it is useful outside of solo, I use it for the first hit to debuff the target then I switch to speed.

the points that had nothing to do with the move are points that YOU brought up, I simply stated they where moot points, none of my post was an attack, it was merely a response to your statement in which the response was correct.

Again at 26 it is a good skill, at 50 it is inferior to other more needed abilities.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

I know it happens a lot on these forums, but try to read what i actually typed.

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its not like its a skill that actually matters in terms of TP generation/drain.

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I did, and that is what my response was about and you are wrong.

At 500 TP, Feint remains one of the most efficient weaponskills for damage dealt per TP.

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Originally Posted by carraway

At 500 TP, Feint remains one of the most efficient weaponskills for damage dealt per TP.

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And now it can be even stronger since you can buff Ferocity and/or Raging Strike and wait for an auto attack to miss.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

I did, and that is what my response was about and you are wrong.

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You then proceeded to not read anything at all where i explained that it doesnt matter because you already use it 100% of the time always, and because 500 tp over 30 seconds is 100% irrelevant for use in tp calculations...
But way to go and prove that you dont read posts. :p

But then maybe to you using 500 TP every 30 seconds is something costly for your TP usage i dunno..

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

You then proceeded to not read anything at all where i explained that it doesnt matter because you already use it 100% of the time always, and because 500 tp over 30 seconds is 100% irrelevant for use in tp calculations...
But way to go and prove that you dont read posts. :p

But then maybe to you using 500 TP every 30 seconds is something costly for your TP usage i dunno..

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I prefer to use my 500 TP on any of the other skills I use such as heavy trammel or save for twisting vice, leg sweep, chaos thrust, or doomspike.

Its fine that you use feint but you are not going to change my mind on its usage. I was simply arguing the fact that what you said was taking the person you quoted out of context he never mentioned saving the 500 TP cost of feint for comrade in arms he made a simple statement about lancers roles in parties, and your reply was

"Also, why does a high rank lancer mention comrade in arms when it comes to weapon skills and tp usage?
Its tp usage is low and it has a rather decent duration..
its not like its a skill that actually matters in terms of TP generation/drain."

so if your intention was to compare the cost of feint and CiA then you did a poor job of conveying that.

Tbh. If I would wait for a miss/evade to occure I would sit on 3000TP for the most of the fight. Being able to use a skill just a few (1-3) times during a fight makes the TP/Damage comparision useless. I'm actually just spamming Chaos Thrust at the moment, because it can't completely miss and does the most damage*.

*against strong enemies.

What do you do for the 30 seconds after each Chaos Thrust? Sit on your ass and watch your autoattacks fire?

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Originally Posted by carraway

What do you do for the 30 seconds after each Chaos Thrust? Sit on your ass and watch your autoattacks fire?

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Throw a Javelin, that works in Darkhold alright.

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Originally Posted by Budi

Tbh. If I would wait for a miss/evade to occure I would sit on 3000TP for the most of the fight. Being able to use a skill just a few (1-3) times during a fight makes the TP/Damage comparision useless. I'm actually just spamming Chaos Thrust at the moment, because it can't completely miss and does the most damage*.

*against strong enemies.

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Why would you have to wait for a miss/evade to occurr? If you have TP when you miss, just Feint. Do you have to intensely focus on your hits to the point where you're completely incapable of doing anything else in order to notice it?

Also, Chaos Thrust damage/TP ratio sucks ass unless you buff it with skills like Ferocity, etc. If you get 2k TP just as these skills come off cooldown, sure, go nuts, but using it as soon as it's ready is not a good idea as you could just do two 1k TP attacks for more damage.