[dev1022] Defining Auto-Attack and how it relates to MMORPG.

Auto-Attack can be define as: The ability to use an action automatically on a target based on a predetermined time interval.

The reason we need to define this is because people ask for it without fully understanding it or what they truely want. Auto-Attack is neither fast or slow by nature but rather the time delay given to them. Two examples of this are as follows.

World of Warcraft: Fast paced combat based on the use of abilities rather than standard attack with fast cooldowns (seconds).
Final Fantasy XI: Slow paced combat based on standard attacks rather than abilities with slow cooldowns (minutes).

Now the question is do you want a fast paced battle system that burns through enemies quickly commonly dubbed "Tank and Gank" or a slower approach using tactics and strategy?

Personally, i'd prefer a nice middle ground, based around tactical play to take advantage of weaknesses in enemy groups to bring them down quickly.

Which in essence is what we have now. What i worry about is how adding an auto attack feature to the game will change it's flow and pace. If you don't have to choose every attack, you get lazy, so many times in FFXI party members who had no major role would just watch something whilst playing because auto attack would do it all for them, and they just had to hit a macro once every few minutes.

I prefer the feeling of control i have over my attacks, and an auto attack would rob me of that feeling, i don't want it, nor do i feel i need it.

people complain about the 'action spam' as though that's reason to add auto attack, but to be fair, would that make action spam disappear? no. it would just slow the feel of battle down to something lackluster, something utterly generic. there wouldn't be the same urgency anymore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dyvid

Auto-Attack can be define as: The ability to use an action automatically on a target based on a predetermined time interval.

The reason we need to define this is because people ask for it without fully understanding it or what they truely want. Auto-Attack is neither fast or slow by nature but rather the time delay given to them. Two examples of this are as follows.

World of Warcraft: Fast paced combat based on the use of abilities rather than standard attack with fast cooldowns (seconds).
Final Fantasy XI: Slow paced combat based on standard attacks rather than abilities with slow cooldowns (minutes).

Now the question is do you want a fast paced battle system that burns through enemies quickly commonly dubbed "Tank and Gank" or a slower approach using tactics and strategy?

---

Hmm...



I fail to equate how having a more interesting, dynamic, and fast-paced battle system even equates to lack of strategy, just because "things are happening faster." Numbers can be changed.

Also, the WoW battle system has undergone millions and millions of changes.. the current system is incredibly more dynamic than its original system. Probably the biggest thing I've noticed is that each class's skill set has a sort of synergy... some skills do effects that feed into other skills, other skills generate a special secondary resource that can be tactically used depending on occasion (in FFXIV they use TP, but it is extremely generic by comparison... every class generates TP with their basic non-TP attacks, and there is no variation to the system among classes... it's all just 'TP')

Just because a system is more energetic and fast-paced doesn't mean everything in the game will be an insta-kill themepark ride. Numbers can (and should be) constantly tweaked and re-balanced to provide a good experience for the gamer. If anything, having more meaningful buttons to press would make what you have to actually do in the game more interesting.

(Though I think the biggest immediate downer to FFXIV's current system is the Stamina bar... which was mainly installed to stop hardcore grinders from clearing everything too fast, so no big surprise there I guess... )

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TessaJalloh

Personally, i'd prefer a nice middle ground, based around tactical play to take advantage of weaknesses in enemy groups to bring them down quickly.

Which in essence is what we have now. What i worry about is how adding an auto attack feature to the game will change it's flow and pace. If you don't have to choose every attack, you get lazy, so many times in FFXI party members who had no major role would just watch something whilst playing because auto attack would do it all for them, and they just had to hit a macro once every few minutes.

I prefer the feeling of control i have over my attacks, and an auto attack would rob me of that feeling, i don't want it, nor do i feel i need it.

people complain about the 'action spam' as though that's reason to add auto attack, but to be fair, would that make action spam disappear? no. it would just slow the feel of battle down to something lackluster, something utterly generic. there wouldn't be the same urgency anymore.

---

If you've ever played any of the other popular MMOs besides FFXI, you'd realize that auto attack and laziness have absolutely nothing in common. People AFK'd in combat in XI because of the nature of combat, using the OP's words, XI was a slow paced tactical system. It was essentially a middle ground between what we had in XI, and what other popular MMOs like WoW, Rift, Warhammer, Aion, <insert generic mmorpg title> have. Middle ground is clearly not working out for a lot of people.

I'm not opposed to an auto attack system at all, but I do admit I fail to see how it would work without drastic skill changes to current classes. I like the current pace, but feel it's too spammy. Perhaps making auto attack weak and remove some of the "spammy" abilities from classes we could have a system that feels both tactical and fast paced.

My favorite class I have ever played in any game was a rogue in WoW, the class had complex rotations and had a very high skill cap. I realize not all classes were like this in that game, and people probably have the fear that classes in XIV might turn into those bad examples, but it is possible to make fast paced tactical combat via auto attack.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dyvid

Auto-Attack can be define as: The ability to use an action automatically on a target based on a predetermined time interval.

The reason we need to define this is because people ask for it without fully understanding it or what they truely want. Auto-Attack is neither fast or slow by nature but rather the time delay given to them. Two examples of this are as follows.

World of Warcraft: Fast paced combat based on the use of abilities rather than standard attack with fast cooldowns (seconds).
Final Fantasy XI: Slow paced combat based on standard attacks rather than abilities with slow cooldowns (minutes).

Now the question is do you want a fast paced battle system that burns through enemies quickly commonly dubbed "Tank and Gank" or a slower approach using tactics and strategy?

---

WoW Cata is actually still fast but very much tactical. The release of Cata had so many people crying about how parties being wiped because people kept approaching situations the old way. I prefer the middle ground because if a game feels too fast it just seems like you press whatever lights up sometimes.

edit: Please no auto-attack unless its added and the rest of the abilities like light slash remains. This however reminds me of WoW also...BUT could work... maybe lol

I think with the way we were rooted during attacks that auto attack will be extremely annoying.


man we need a test server.

"If combat is so undesirable that it needs to be automated, then something other than auto-attack is needed to improve it."

Personally I like the current system. XI's left me bored out of my my mind some times. I like XIV's where I have multiple basic attacks, and I can pick and choose. My one beef is it's just hard to talk or change tactics during this time. I'd sort of like something in line with Auto-Run personally. You hit that button, and it keeps using your basic attack, but wisely. Like... you hit the button, and it attacks, waits for the amount of stamina used to recover, and then attacks again. That way I could swap between auto and manual as I saw fit. The ability spam doesn't bother me at all. I really like it as it's more engaging.

I believe the best solution is a compromise that has been mentioned in several other threads on this subject.

Basically, make "auto-action" a setting that can be toggled on or off, and that can be configured to use any action that the character currently knows ... be it Light Slash, Levinbolt, Guard, or Cure. The cooldown for the abilities would determine the rate that they triggger, and naturally if you don't have enough Stamina, MP, HP, or TP to pay the cost the ability will not trigger.

Those who do not want to use it, do not have to use it. Those that do, can.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nephera

man we need a test server.

---

lol... pretty much this

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sorel

I believe the best solution is a compromise that has been mentioned in several other threads on this subject.

Basically, make "auto-action" a setting that can be toggled on or off, and that can be configured to use any action that the character currently knows ... be it Light Slash, Levinbolt, Guard, or Cure. The cooldown for the abilities would determine the rate that they triggger, and naturally if you don't have enough Stamina, MP, HP, or TP to pay the cost the ability will not trigger.

Those who do not want to use it, do not have to use it. Those that do, can.

---

This is like the best possible solution and I will add if it can be mapped to buttons or macros it will make trying to chat in the middle of combat a lot easier. Instead of having to go into menu and config to toggle it off and on.

As i've stated previously FFXIV needs to have a combat system thats different from other mmo's if it wants to succeed in the market. I think it would be amazing if they made the battle system like Demon Souls - active attacking/blocking/aiming/dodging. It would be different from TERA in the sense that it would be slower and more tactile.

Please, please, please have an interesting battle system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akumu

This is like the best possible solution and I will add if it can be mapped to buttons or macros it will make trying to chat in the middle of combat a lot easier. Instead of having to go into menu and config to toggle it off and on.

---

But it would make a mess of the battle system we have. Optional is never a good thing when it comes to battle dynamics.

I rather they turn auto attack as a "auto skill" with a skill set of its own.

Let's make light attack and light stab an "auto skill" for instance, or change it to heavy stab/slash, etc. which the latter will increase all skill stamina usage.

Then separate TP base WS, which I refer to "instant skills" that purely rely on TP and none on stamina.
and
regular skills which are purely stamina/mp. Thus making Stamina an ATB we're all so familar with.

This would allow make the ground work for a system kind of like FF11, but more modernized, where auto attack can be changed on the fly, but will always "proc" for the intense feeling.

While you have game changers like stamina skills that are strategic.

Finally the TP skills (WS) are what you would consider, limitbreaks theories.

So in summary,

Auto attack skills (Able to switch back and forth, but proc at a pre-set rate)
Stamina skills (On cool downs and stamina requirements, stamina regen might also need to slow down)
TP skills (Only based on TP, which TP will accumulate slower) aka limit breaks.

And you can bring back a SC system this way or a BR system that only rely on TP skills.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kukurumei

But it would make a mess of the battle system we have. Optional is never a good thing when it comes to battle dynamics.

I rather they turn auto attack as a "auto skill" with a skill set of its own.

Let's make light attack and light stab an "auto skill" for instance, or change it to heavy stab/slash, etc. which the latter will increase all skill stamina usage.

Then separate TP base WS, which I refer to "instant skills" that purely rely on TP and none on stamina.
and
regular skills which are purely stamina/mp. Thus making Stamina an ATB we're all so familar with.

This would allow make the ground work for a system kind of like FF11, but more modernized, where auto attack can be changed on the fly, but will always "proc" for the intense feeling.

While you have game changers like stamina skills that are strategic.

Finally the TP skills (WS) are what you would consider, limitbreaks theories.

So in summary,

Auto attack skills (Able to switch back and forth, but proc at a pre-set rate)
Stamina skills (On cool downs and stamina requirements, stamina regen might also need to slow down)
TP skills (Only based on TP, which TP will accumulate slower) aka limit breaks.

And you can bring back a SC system this way or a BR system that only rely on TP skills.

---

This actually sounds very solid to me. It should be noted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gifthorse

"If combat is so undesirable that it needs to be automated, then something other than auto-attack is needed to improve it."

---

This is very true.
I am very happy with the current battle system. It involves the player so much more than FFXI ever seemed to. I despise the thought of an auto mated system. If anything I would want more thought and significance put on basic attacks themselves. Have chain attacks with sequential timed button presses. Give different classes different attacks. Mrd with an aoe swing is a start so far. Give lancer jump, pug a counter, etc.

Get rid of all these unnecessary abilities, make the weaponskills something you bust out crazy damage with, and make them beautiful and different.

I have no trouble talking between fights, and don't want to talk while I'm in them. I want to be immersed in the beauty, excitement and gore that is combat. Let the weak talk while I lop their limbs off.

what if we lower passive stamina regeneration a little but but made your basic attacks regenerate it, this is essentially what champions does.


oh wait hold up if we just got rid of stamina we'd be doing almost exactly what champions does.


Edit: and thats not a bad thing it works pretty solidly

I'd like auto-attack, sorta like FFXI style. A lot of the time it's too difficult to talk to people when your in combat, and sometimes it's important. It would also allow me to think about more important commands in battle, focus more on positioning(I expected it to be more important) without hindering me while using a mouse and keyboard.

I can see having an auto attack, that every time you hit the enemy you generate a little bit of stamina. You would naturally generate stamina up to a point, slower than currently, but not lose it like you do now with TP(I really hate that).

Then every weapon would have 2 or 3 stamina using attacks. For instance, Pugilist would have Jab, Cross, and Kick(roundhouse maybe), each using different amounts of stamina, and chaining them together would be similar, if not exactly like Deathblows from Xenogears (I think it would feel very different in this semi-active/turn based system than in a purely turned based system).

This would give you access you all of your weapon skills without having to slot them, only you would need varying degrees of stamina to use them.

Gladiator would be different. Glad without a shield, would have Light Slash, Light Stab and Heavy Slash, but with a shield would have Light stab, light slash, and Shield Strike. This would give a Sword+Shield Glad a few different Ws's than a pure Sword Glad, but they would both have access to some of the same. This way you could give the former more tank supportive attack like a high hate generating attack and give the latter one that does a lot more damage.

This would allow us to have an auto-attack with the benefits that it brings, and still allow us to be more involed than in FFXI.

I'd prefer to have no auto-attack. The way the system is at the moment requires tactical use of skills where you have to ensure you have enough stamina reserve to use follow-up skills. We have a good system, but...

It may be acceptable if they added an auto-attack skill which can be added to the skill bar whereby it attacks until another skill is used, however costs no stamina and generates no TP. That way we could keep tactical use of stamina and TP generation. In addition it would not be fully automatic meaning when I want to buff up mid-fight for a heavy attack the buffs won't be wasted on some auto-attack.

Something like this might keep both camps happy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kukurumei

But it would make a mess of the battle system we have. Optional is never a good thing when it comes to battle dynamics.

I rather they turn auto attack as a "auto skill" with a skill set of its own.

Let's make light attack and light stab an "auto skill" for instance, or change it to heavy stab/slash, etc. which the latter will increase all skill stamina usage.

Then separate TP base WS, which I refer to "instant skills" that purely rely on TP and none on stamina.
and
regular skills which are purely stamina/mp. Thus making Stamina an ATB we're all so familar with.

This would allow make the ground work for a system kind of like FF11, but more modernized, where auto attack can be changed on the fly, but will always "proc" for the intense feeling.

While you have game changers like stamina skills that are strategic.

Finally the TP skills (WS) are what you would consider, limitbreaks theories.

So in summary,

Auto attack skills (Able to switch back and forth, but proc at a pre-set rate)
Stamina skills (On cool downs and stamina requirements, stamina regen might also need to slow down)
TP skills (Only based on TP, which TP will accumulate slower) aka limit breaks.

And you can bring back a SC system this way or a BR system that only rely on TP skills.

---

^ One thumb up. Two if you keep the BR system and just tweak/edit it.