Overview and Analysis of Rogue/Ninja class so far

The following is my overview and analysis of the Rogue class and Ninja job. It is not complete since I am only a lvl 40 Ninja, but I believe I have all of the basics down and can give a fair amount of insight to players who are seeking to make Ninjas their new main.

TL;DR: Rogues are just like Lancers. Good Lancers will make good Rogues, Dragoons who are seeking to main Ninja will welcome the familiarity. Monks will see how Rogue is similar to Lancer and might be turned off since they chose Pugilist since they didn't like how Lancer played, but if you're willing to give Ninja a chance you may change your mind since Mudras and Ninjutsu can be pretty fun :).


So I didn't get a chance to post this last night because I was up for over 20 hours leveling my Ninja to 40 and passed out as soon as I hit 40 (yes I am addicted), but I wanted to share my thoughts on Rogue and Ninja. For starters, I'm highly disappointed in Rogue, because they are Lancers, like literally, they are just Lancers.

Rogue's get a 3 skill combo with the following potencies, Spinning Edge (150) -> Gust Slash (200) -> Aeolian Edge (320).
Lancer's get a 3 skill combo with the following potencies, True Thrust (150) -> Vorpal Thrust (200) -> Full Thrust (320).
Spinning Edge and True Thrust are unlocked at lvl 1, Gust Slash and Vorpal Thrust at lvl 3, and Aeolian Edge and Full Thrust at lvl 26. This is going to be your main bread and buttter combo as both Lancer and Rogue, and for that reason, playing a Rogue is a LOT like playing a Lancer IN MY OPINION.

If we look at other skills, Lancer has another 3 hit combo that Rogue doesn't have, Impulse Drive (just damage), Disembowel (Piercing resistance), and Chaos Thrust (DoT). Rogues have both Disembowel and Chaos Thrust, it's just that it's been made into secondary branches for your main 3 skill combo.

Rogues can choose to do Spinning Edge -> Gust Slash -> Dancing Edge. Dancing Edge applies Slashing resistance. Dancing Edge is essentially Disembowel for Rogues.

Rogues can choose to do Spinning Edge -> Shadow Fang (nothing combos from Shadow Fang). Shadow Fang is a DoT. Shadow Fang is essentially Chaos Thrust for Rogues. Even though they are both DoT's, they have to be both done through combos, which is what sets them apart from other DoT's and makes them similar to each other.

Rogues have Mutilate, it's a DoT. It's essentially Phlebotomize for Rogues, but I won't say much about this because pretty much every DPS class has a stand alone DoT that they need to always keep up.

Rogues have Assassinate. Assassinate is Dragoon's Jump ability. It's an off Global Cooldown skill that you use for extra damage, it locks your character in place for about just as long as Dragoon's Jump does, and while your character model moves to jump on the enemy's head and stab their eyes out, your characters position remains the same. This means that if you use assassinate while you're behind a boss and the boss uses a tail swipe AoE, even though you're currently stabbing their eyes out, your position is still considered BEHIND the boss, the position where you used Assassinate, and that tail swipe will hit you. So this is literally just Jump, with the only difference being that you can only use it when the enemy is under 20%, just like Misery's End. By the way both Jump and Assassinate have a Potency of 200.

Rogues have Throwing Dagger, this is just like Piercing Talon, a weak ranged attack with high TP cost, just because. Both have potency of 120.

Rogues have Jugulate, this is just like Leg Sweep, a low damage off Global Cooldown attack that stuns (with Kiss of the Wasp, originally silences, but same principal).

Rogues have Death Blossom, this is just like Ring of Thorns, low damage AoE that hits everything around you. Both have potency of 100.

This may be pushing it to call it a similarity, but I'm going to go ahead and say it as a way for me to start off on saying what's different about the Rogue and Lancer class, and then move on into Ninja. Kiss of the Viper/Wasp is essentially just Heavy Thrust for Lancers, except you don't need to keep re-using it in battle, you just use it once before battle (like Fists of Fire). This is a fair difference though and not much to complain about.

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Now, for the differences between Rogue and Lancer.

Perfect Dodge. While this is not entirely unique (Black Mages have Manawall which is the same except it can block 2 hits in 20 seconds) it is still a really cool skill that fits with Rogues. I only wish that it was more something like 2-3 second duration and 30 second cooldown (as opposed to 5 second duration and 2 minute cooldown).

Hide, allows you to hide from enemies that aren't 10 above your level. I'd say it's completely new if it weren't for the fact that DoL basically have this already? Either way though it does fit Rogue so I'm not complaining.

Sneak Attack / Trick Attack. Awesome skills that you can use as openers. However unless there is a way to use Hide in the middle of a fight these will only be openers :/. Personally I find Sneak Attack hard to use since Hide decreases your movement speed and you have to be in FRONT of the enemy to perform it, which will likely get you attacked by any frontal cone AoE. Trick Attack looks amazing, activates from behind and gives the boss a damage taken debuff for 10 seconds. Best opener in the game at the moment.

Mug, a unique skill that gives you more loot if you finish off an enemy with it, definitely fits Rogue :). I have confirmed that you know Mug worked through a message in the chat where you see loot being distributed, the message will look like "Additional items have been obtained through the use of Mug. X character has gotten Y item." (This is not word for word but it will look something like that). However in boss fights, this substitutes as an off Global Cooldown damage skill, and with Kiss of the Viper you can heal for half the damage you deal using this.

Goad. Amazing ability, it's basically Army's Paeon that you can give to any single one party member. The only problem is you can't use it on yourself :(. However this is not a HUGE problem because all of Rogues skills actually cost 10-20 less TP than their counterpart skills in other classes o.o. When leveling with my friend who was also raising his Ninja, before we got into a boss fight we threw Goad on each other. This would allow us to use sprint before going into Hide for our opener, which allowed us to move much faster during Hide and made getting in front of the boss a lot easier.

As it stands though, even with these few differences, Rogue plays way too much like Lancer, to the point where I was getting bored leveling Rogue because it felt like I was leveling my Lancer for the 3rd time! (I have a lvl 50 Dragoon on both my characters) This highly disappointed me because Yoshi-P said that Ninja would play out a lot different from other classes, just like how so far every single class' playstyle are worlds apart. Monk and Dragoon play very differently even though they are both melee, as do Summoner and Black Mage even though they're both casters. So to find that Rogue played like Lancer really did upset me :/.

HOWEVER, when I unlocked Ninja I became very happy. Mudras is most definitely a completely different playstyle from everything in the game. As for what you don't see in the patch notes, each Mudra cast has a 0.5 second recast timer, and casting Ninjutsu will put them all on cooldown for 20 seconds. Each of the different Ninjutsus do NOT have their own seperate cooldowns, so you can essentially spam the same one every 20 seconds. Also, all Mudras and Ninjutsu are off the Global Cooldown! This means that between any 2 skills you use you can do some Mudras and perform a Ninjutsu. When you boil it all down, Ninjas have a 360 potency attack (Raiton) that is off the Global Cooldown with a 20 second cooldown!!! (Over Powered?!?!)

Mudras are a little harder to use than they look. I'm sure most of you have, just like I have and any of the youtubers I see have, made a habit of mashing the button of the next skill you need to use. Doing this will almost always make you double cast a Mudra. Using any Mudra two times in a row will result in a failure for your Ninjutsu, so we will have to break that habit. Also, for those of you who think "Oh, recast timer is usually around 2.3-2.5 seconds, casting 3 mudras will take 1.5 seconds, so as long as Ninjutsu will only take 1 second or so to cast, I can completely fit this in between skills and be done in time for my next skill to be up!" You are for the most part wrong. I haven't tested it with every skill yet, but it does take at least one second for you to break the animation of the skill you used in order to cast Mudras, and even now with my lvl 40 Ninja I cannot cast two Mudras and then a Raiton without my next skill being up for at least half a second. Also once we unlock all 3 Mudras and are able to use Huton, our attack Speed will be increased by 15%, making it even harder to use them within the short time allowed between skills. I predict this will affect how good level 50 Ninjas throw this into their rotation.

In the end, Mudras with Ninjas and the amount of possible skills you can make out of it make Ninja really fun, and I will continue to play it, especially since I liked Lancer/Dragoon better than Pugilist/Monk anyways, so this fits my playstyle better. I would say that any good Dragoon will be a good Ninja, even though Monks have a better time transitioning to Ninja because of their gear :/.

This marks the end of my overview of the Rogue class and Ninja Job. Sorry for the lengthy read but I hoped I provided some insight to you fellow players who were hoping to switch their main to Ninja.

EDIT: grammar and corrections.

EDIT2: Reverted some of the acronyms for ease of readability.

Thanks for this. Enjoyed reading.

Thanks for the read up. I want to mention though that monk has similar tools to both DRG and NIN if you look close at it.

Touch of death would be your stand alone dot similar to Phlebotomize and Mutilate.
Demolish would be your in combo dot similar to Chaos Thrust and Shadow Fang (difference to ToD is that you need to be in couerl, which is kinda how MNK "combos").
Twin snakes is your buff similar to heavy thrust (both from flank too, ninja actually is different here since for him its just a passive as you mentioned but DRG and MNK are fairly similar).
Bootshine, True Strike and Snap Punch would be your burst combo similar to the ones both NIN and DRG have.
Edit: forgot Dragon Kick, which is a 10% debuff similar to Disembowel and Dancing Edge

I agree that ROG has more in common with LNC than with PGL but all 3 have very similar tools in their main rotation imo. The difference is in how they use those and what they do outside of their main rotation, MNK having his forms and GL, DRG having multiple combos and jumps and NIN having one branching tree combo and mudras.

Any suggestions on how to make the rogue play different then?

Thanks for the write up :), haven't had the time to level Ninja yet . . haven't had the time for any of the new stuff *sobs*. Need the weekend now xD. lol

i want to add something, you don't need to finish a target with mug for make the effect work, did some test and you only need to touch with mug in the fight for get the chance to have more loot.
another point, if you are in team, mug work like another loot gained from the same monster, meaning the loot can do this. normal loot go to player A and mug loot go to player B even if it's from the same monster.

another point, you say rogue is a lot like dragoon, is more all melee dps using the combo systeme make look like it. but rogue don't have any positional skill exept the two opener. that an amazing advantage in comparaison of the lancer/dragoon and the pugilist/monk.
other point the trait that increase the speed of movement make you always go faster than monster following someone, it's soo much easier to attack a target moving.

however i'm like you i think the mudra are tricky but offer a so fresh experience of play compared to the two other.

I main monk on one of my characters and found drg playstyle a bit boring. But I'll definitely trudge through it to unlock ninja. Their skillset seems very interesting.

I was fairly disappointed by it when i saw the original skill set for rogue. As the Op stated, it is nearly identical to dragoon. I do not think the rogue/ninja has enough separating it from dragoon for me to consider levelling it. The mudras are a nice twist, but the rotation is extremely simplistic and just seems boring. I was hoping for a melee dps that had more of a priority system for abilities and less of a static rotation like MNK and DRG. But some people may find it enjoyable so to each their own. Lord knows that FFXIV has more than enough other stuff for me to do :)

I saw a lot of good points in the original post, but there are some things to consider. Although the rogue's skills are similar to lancer, the main difference is SPEED. Rogue plays like a lancer that drank a double tall expresso and 6-pack of Red Bull. Although the button/key presses would be the same for a rotation (2.5s is 2.5s, regardless of what class you're using, the animations along with the lack of position requirements make Rogue feel a lot faster. Leveling Lancer/Dragoon was such a snooze fest for me that I couldn't even finish the job (stopped at 43). I haven't been able to put ROG/NIN down yet, and I haven't even gotten to 50.

I also noticed something quirky about the mudras. It's like the system gives u a lot of freedom with the timing, but the cooldown is too fast to be macro'd effectively, but the animations/cooldown slow things down JUST enough that if you button mash, even if it's the right combination, you'll mess up. I'm sure people who don't want to take the time to grasp the timing will complain about, but I like it. A lot.

it was a good read and it solidified my decision to level up Lancer for funsies. With Rogue fate groups going on, I think I can jump in and enjoy myself a bit.

(sorry, if my spelling is a little bit messy, I´m not a nativ) (This is kind of anoing, I had to plit this into 4 parts. What is this SE?)
Thank you OP for the work you have but into this,

while I can certainly see where you are coming from, I have to disagree with some points. I´m only at lvl32 (nin) right now and for the most part it really felt like dragoon. What divides them (as others and you allready stated) is the positional requirements you don´t need. Some friends and me where running T6 and T7 last night and after we finished, I went back to leveling my nin. The first thing that popt up was: "Ahh, I dont need to position myself". I only realized this after a few dead mops.

I normaly main dragoon and open my attacks with phlebotomize and leg sweep to get a good chance to use heavy strike even in non party content. While I can´t say how nin will play in endgame, I can say for sure that you don´t having to put up your heavy thrust is a huge plus. I mean that I really can´t count the number of occasions where I thought: "Fuck you Boss, did you have to turn around right now" as I was doing my heavy thrust. Having to do this multible times just drops your dps significantly.

In my opinion jumps aren´t the same as Assasinate because, as you allready stated, you can only use this as a finisher duo to the 20% LP requirement. But it certainly is alot like miserys end.

The dots are very similar. I see that exactly as you do. For the rotation of the nin you have to do some planning time thats a litte bit above over that of the dragoon. While as a dragoon you have your 20 seconds of Blood for Blood where you blast everything (using allmost all of your off-gc-skills), at the meantime you just use your two rotations (+ phle +ls) and see that you position yourself good. I´m not at endgame for nin (as most others too), but what I can see from the skillset right now is that you have to do 3 rotation to put your dot + resistance- + damage. That comes because you don´t have 2 designated combos (dragoon) but 3 finisher for the same combo. This needs a lot of planning as your most powerfull dot only has a uptime of 18 seconds (30 seconds for dragoon) and duo to this has to reaplied every 3 rotations at least. While you to look at the resistance- and your second dot. While you have to cast your mudras. etc... I think you see where this is going...

I agree with you that there are many similarities between dragoon and nin (even betwenn monk and nin). But overall I think the nin as harder to play than the dragoon which easily can make him the hardest class to play. I don´t play endgame with a monk, so I can´t say how complex it is. From his skillset it allways felt like he is a little bit less hard to play the dragoon. I mean to play good, not just play. Please dear monks don´t bash me for this as I don´t know endgame-monk. An opinion from one would be good I think. Also I think I heard that summoner is quite hard to play good. Also+ I have to say that I´m more on the casual site of a player so my impression can be incorrect overall. I just like the nin as far as I have seen.

There are many things more to say about differences but I feel that this post is long enough allready (don´t want you to pass out on me while reading this ;-)).
To find an end I will say that the nin lies somewhere between monk and dragoon with a tendency to become very hard to be played good. I still like him a lot and am thinking of switching. I will need more time with him to make up my mind for this (well this kind of reads like proposal...). Also I´m kind of disapointed too because Yoshi-P stated that the Rouge will be heavy on the dot-site.

Ahh, one point that comes to my mind: As far as I know you can use Trick Attack/Sneak Attack again while in suiton (ninjutsu) even when you are allready are in battle. As far as I know, this isn´t officially confirmed jet.

Have fun :-)
(Sorry, its 5 parts now)

Endgame monk isn't as complex as a ninja. It is indeed the toughest job to play optimally at the moment.

Ninja I think is on the same level of complexity (if not moreso) than DRG, but I think the rotation flows very well, mudras included. Full disclosure, I'm only at lvl 42, but I've been developing the rotation with every new ability that I get, and I think that the theory crafters who started putting something together the day the skill list was released were pretty much on target.

I find it a comfortable mix between monk and drg. Its bursty like a drg, but moves through combos with the speed of a monk thanks to Huton. At 46, when you pretty much have access to your full rotation, you'll really notice the difference. Took me a solid level and a half to get used to the new combos and mudras. Also Suiton at 45 will allow you to use Trick/Sneak without Hide so they're not just openers :D

Damage wise, on average I'm about 30 DPS lower compared to my Nexus monk which isn't bad because of the utility ninja brings to the group. Trick is fantastic for burn phases and our raid group is loving the extra damage they're seeing. Our blm managed a 3.7k crit flare with Foes and Trick up haha.

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Originally Posted by ShaolinMike

Ninja I think is on the same level of complexity (if not moreso) than DRG, but I think the rotation flows very well, mudras included. Full disclosure, I'm only at lvl 42, but I've been developing the rotation with every new ability that I get, and I think that the theory crafters who started putting something together the day the skill list was released were pretty much on target.

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wait to be 45, it change all... really.
when you have to include Huton, suiton into the cycle. it's where the trouble begin, since the mudra are not that well implemented, you can't mash the button you need to be precise. the cycle by itself take a lot of concentration to maintain while avoiding AoE, i think a very good ninja, will probably beat the dps of the monk of a little.

i hope they will implement stuff for make the use of the mudra easier, like a windows that show us what mudra was counted, since with the latency it can change how well it work.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

wait to be 45, it change all... really.
when you have to include Huton, suiton into the cycle. it's where the trouble begin, since the mudra are not that well implemented, you can't mash the button you need to be precise. the cycle by itself take a lot of concentration to maintain while avoiding AoE, i think a very good ninja, will probably beat the dps of the monk of a little.

i hope they will implement stuff for make the use of the mudra easier, like a windows that show us what mudra was counted, since with the latency it can change how well it work.

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I don't think mudras were poorly implemented, it's just that people have to get used to not mashing the inputs like they so with every other ability in the game.

I like it, makes you have to be more cognitive of what you are actually doing at that moment. The real issue is the slight latency on 3 step jutsus in the mudra system, and even then it's not that bad.

I just hope they don't make the job any easier.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

wait to be 45, it change all... really.
when you have to include Huton, suiton into the cycle. it's where the trouble begin, since the mudra are not that well implemented, you can't mash the button you need to be precise. the cycle by itself take a lot of concentration to maintain while avoiding AoE, i think a very good ninja, will probably beat the dps of the monk of a little.

i hope they will implement stuff for make the use of the mudra easier, like a windows that show us what mudra was counted, since with the latency it can change how well it work.

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Been at 50 for a couple days now. The rotation is complex but still feels pretty fluid.

i do play monk since V1, believe me, monk is far easier than this, indeed the ninja cycle is fluide (thanks god this) but still it recquiert far more skill than monk. monk rotation is quite simple, the trouble is be in the right position for do it. where the ninja become harder is the number of imput. it's easy to loose track of the debuff on your target, the stuff to avoid, the ninjutsu buff and with latency the mudra mess up (*sighs* they need to work on this part)

indeed in monk you must keep your selfbuff on, but like said, if you follow your cycle outside the time you loose GL because of the fight mechanic... is not that hard. you don't really to keep in check your selfbuff since they are automatically applicated in your cycle.

i must admit that for some people monk cycle must look hard to master, but i feel that ninja without a gamepad (i play keyboard - mouse) is asking more skill.

ps: don't get me wrong i love both of them (monk and ninja) however i must say something bother me alot in the two jobs. they feel like reversed. i means the monk is a better rogue than the ninja with all the positional fighting and stuff like this. and the ninja feel more like a true monk that go head on and simply try to destroy the target, it sad in a way. Sabin must be sad when he look the monk of FF14 *nods nods*

The only thing that really concern me is by accidently pressing the same button 2x which then could screw up my rotation.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

i must admit that for some people monk cycle must look hard to master, but i feel that ninja without a gamepad (i play keyboard - mouse) is asking more skill.

i means the monk is a better rogue than the ninja with all the positional fighting and stuff like this. and the ninja feel more like a true monk that go head on and simply try to destroy the target, it sad in a way. Sabin must be sad when he look the monk of FF14 *nods nods*

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Interesting perspective on the role reversal, but the way they play is actually accurate, if you look at monks and ninja in real life. The "jutsus" (ninjutsu / jiujutsu) are a lot more direct in their approach to combat than many kung fu systems. Note: I'm not talking about the part of ninjutsu dealing with illusion and deception, I'm not talking about the actual combat. Jiujutsu especially is pretty much like "see enemy, break enemy's joints, win fight."

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

i do play monk since V1, believe me, monk is far easier than this, indeed the ninja cycle is fluide (thanks god this) but still it requires far more skill than monk. monk rotation is quite simple, the trouble is be in the right position for do it. where the ninja become harder is the number of imput. it's easy to loose track of the debuff on your target, the stuff to avoid, the ninjutsu buff and with latency the mudra mess up (*sighs* they need to work on this part)

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I'd say the skill requirement is based on how the player. I find NIN easier to play than MNK. As a monk I was constantly obsessed with being in the right position to gain the additional potency. As a ninja, I can stand where I want and only move to avoid attacks. It just suits the way my mind works better.

Jiujutsu is more a monk way, you will face your adversary from face and attack it. ninja are the master of the deception, they are assassin, them goal is to be unseen.

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Shinobi:
A) or was a covert agent or mercenary in feudal Japan. The functions of the ninja included espionage, sabotage, infiltration, and assassination, and open combat in certain situations. Their covert methods of waging war contrasted the ninja with the samurai, who observed strict rules about honor and combat. The shinobi proper, a specially trained group of spies and mercenaries, appeared in the Sengoku or "warring states" period, in the 15th century, but antecedents may have existed in the 14th century, and possibly even in the 12th century (Heian or early Kamakura era).

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actually Shinobi when was fighting in direct combat was more a martial artist, since no deception can be really done at this time. anyway, it's a matter of perspective... but i feel the monk is the true rogue of the game, while the ninja is the true... martial artist of the game. a bit sad, but that ok, i have both 50 with 1-2 ilevel of difference *grins*

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Originally Posted by ShaolinMike

I'd say the skill requirement is based on how the player. I find NIN easier to play than MNK. As a monk I was constantly obsessed with being in the right position to gain the additional potency. As a ninja, I can stand where I want and only move to avoid attacks. It just suits the way my mind works better.

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i can relate to this, for me it's not a trouble since i learn the cycle to be almost in auto pilot, there for the ninja the trouble is more the number of imput and the latency with the mudra (european after all ^^)

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

actually Shinobi when was fighting in direct combat was more a martial artist, since no deception can be really done at this time. anyway, it's a matter of perspective... but i feel the monk is the true rogue of the game, while the ninja is the true... martial artist of the game. a bit sad, but that ok, i have both 50 with 1-2 ilevel of difference *grins*

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That makes sense. But I think the difference is moreso in the attack animations themselves, rather than the execution. Every one of NIN's attacks animations is a dance, whereas the majority of the MNK attack animations (excluding Dragon Kick) is pretty much a direct straightforward strike.