This Game Forgets About the Intermediate Player

Allow me to explain (please read).

The hardcore player will always be at the head of the pack when it comes to content (as he or she should be). Going into patch 2.4; the hardcore player has cleared the second coil, likely has a nexus, and has a head start going into the final coil. Nerfs to older content don't impact the hardcore player much because the hardcore player has earned the right to be the first to experience the new hardcore content.

The intermediate player does not have the time the hardcore player has to play but has enough time / skill to take on the "intermediate challenges." In 2.2 and 2.3; the only intermediate challenges were the extreme primals. Unfortunately, the extreme primals reward players with items that are no better than what can be earned via casual content. Going into 2.4; the intermediate player has likely bested the extreme primals, bested turn 5 and is working on his or her animus (or potentially has a novus).

The casual player does not have much time to play and "sometimes" is not as skilled as the intermediate or hardcore players. The casual player runs expert (ironic isn't it?) dungeon roulette's, purchases weathered gear and upgrades the weathered gear with sands of time from Tower runs. The casual player is scared off by the atma phase.

Here lies the problem. Going into 2.4; both the casual player and the intermediate player will enter 2.4 with seemingly the same item level. Atmas are now dropping at a laughably easy rate (2 or 3 per hour some are finding). Books are cheaper than ever (500 soldiery). Essentially any grind time made by an intermediate player was for naught.

Why be an intermediate player? You see no benefit. Grinds are only fun when you feel that you are working towards something but when the countless hours you spend are given away to casuals for free - it makes the grind not worthwhile. I have nothing against casual players. Some of the casual players are the best you will ever meet. The problem is that there is no incentive to play this game at an "average / intermediate" rate. You might as well play as a casual if you don't have the time to be a hardcore player.

Casual or hardcore. No middle ground.

Hardcore players = those who clear Coil 2 fast after it's been added and Savage Coil before 2.4. Intermediate players = those who slowly work on Coil 2 with pugs or casual statics and clear it all or a few turns of it by 2.4.

Preparation wise all that matter is they gave everyone a chance to get ful i110 before 2.4 hit, no matter how casually people play. Only thing that's preventing the so called "casuals" or "intermediate" players from entering final coil is T9 win (and for some, T5 win). Which a lot more people are probably interested in learning and getting when it's been added to DF and will be nerfed with echo.

Please stop with the stupid generalizations, I for one fit in to none of those categories

I have no idea what you are talking about.

First of all, everybody unweathers equipment, hardcore, mid, casual, so that point makes no sense.

Worrying about the relic weapon is silly. There are other options like the soldiery weapon. It's also not difficult in any form, just time consuming.

Why, as an intermediate, are you not working on SCoB, particularly T9 now that it is unlocked? If you are just now beating T5 by this patch, you are not an intermediate, but a casual. That's not an insult, especially since I hate those terms, but your definitions here are really flawed. Honestly, out of those categories, I'd consider myself intermediate and my static nearly cleared T8 pre-patch.

Finding the grind entertaining should be it's own reward, no? What does it matter how anyone else gets their content?

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Originally Posted by MasamuneBranford

Casual or hardcore. No middle ground.

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If a casual can be anywhere from dungeons to the final turns of coil, how can an intermediate player exist? What bars an intermediate player from turn 6 and up, when casuals regularly do turns 6 and up? If you have more time to invest than a casual, who can regularly access such features, shouldn't you be able to access those features for more regularly than they are?

This post is awful confusing!

If you see no benefit in trying to be an "intermediate" player....then dont be one. Pretty simple huh? Better yet maybe try to not have to generalize a diverse set of players into three generic generalizations. I play the game for fun....if its not fun then I stop playing....in either case it never crosses my mind to consider what asanine classification I should be part of.

I guess I would be intermediate to casual but I fit into none of those. It all depends on the person.

The OP is a great example on why a game developer can NEVER win regardless of what they do.

There seems to be a very thin line between "casual" and "intermediate" for you, but the only impression i'm getting from this post is that you don't think you're a casual player and you don't like that the casual players are getting equally rewarded. Your biggest problem is that you think other players aren't working as hard as you are.

What even is a "hardcore" player? Is it judged by hours spent playing? By the activities undertaken in game? By the ilvl on your main class? It's a pointless label that doesn't really mean anything. Casual at least has a somewhat concrete meaning: someone who only plays a few hours a week. Even then, there are those who will only log in every week to farm the latest coil and be offline the other 6 days. Does that make them casual?

All this post is the OP not wanting to be lumped with the casuals. But obviously, the problem remains is that the select group of experienced players (a.k.a a sbuset of the "hardcores") who works to reject and exclude other players also excluded the OP, which is why there is much whining. Personally I see nothing wrong being lumped with the casuals. Scrub and proud! Seriously people need to be more inclusive and build a community the brings the players together. There is no need to treat casual players with contempt or blaming them for content adjustment. And if player have limited time like the OP, do everything else but the grinding first, you will get much better returns. And if that is all done, then grind what you can and don't worry about where the casuals will be, play for fun and not to worry about staying a step ahead of the jones.

A better remark that's more genuine is the "A step behind" crowd as intermediate.

A good way to put this is Titan EX. A lot of players have cleared Titan EX. It's honestly not that hard for a lot of people. There's also a segment of players who're probably never going to clear Titan EX, and that's fine. Then there's the crowd that missed the "everyone was doing first tier EX Primals" and now has to wait for the miracle that gets them a clear because 80% of the crowd attempting aren't skilled enough, and the vast majority of players that could assist them to a clear has no value in returning to it.

It's probably not even that hard for these players personally - but due to a variety of factors (started playing late, took a significant time break, life making a static impossible), they've "missed the boat" and now getting into a lot of the content that interests them is a struggle because they sit in that awkward content zone.

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Originally Posted by TheMoonflow

Please stop with the stupid generalizations, I for one fit in to none of those categories

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I am always finding myself in that position when people try to describe how "people play" Just like in life, you cannot pigeon hole someone under a single label, and even then the label really needs to be self defined.

There are more shades of gray on that than just 3...

I consider myself an intermediate player; I'm somewhat skilled, and I beat all extreme primals with the exception of Ramuh. However, I was scared off by the atma phase and as I got an unidentified tomestone from a ST run, I started saving Rowena Tokens for a soldiery weapon (have like 7 already). I have beat T5, but didn't kill even Rafflesia cuz of fail pugs on PF who disband after 4 tries. Also can't get a static because all groups who are recruiting are for 3-4 times a week, and I can't commit that many nights.

So, that being said, I'm somewhat divided on the atma grind. OK, now it's doable (No chance in hell that I would do it before), but on the other hand, I already spent 1k soldiery on tokens for a weapon ¬¬ what to do, what to do...

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

So, that being said, I'm somewhat divided on the atma grind. OK, now it's doable (No chance in hell that I would do it before), but on the other hand, I already spent 1k soldiery on tokens for a weapon ¬¬ what to do, what to do...

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You can easily do both...the soldiery weapon, especially unweathered, is on par with Novus for most jobs. Do FATE's while you wait for queues, or just in general have some free time. People only got frustrated with Atma's because they tried to grind them for hours on end. Just pace yourself.

That's a nice suggestion. I'm doing a few ST runs tonight to upgrade the pieces of i90 that I sill have (head and belt), and might get an oil of time or 2 in the process.

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Originally Posted by Jacost

What even is a "hardcore" player? Is it judged by hours spent playing? By the activities undertaken in game? By the ilvl on your main class? It's a pointless label that doesn't really mean anything. Casual at least has a somewhat concrete meaning: someone who only plays a few hours a week. Even then, there are those who will only log in every week to farm the latest coil and be offline the other 6 days. Does that make them casual?

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no it makes them casual-hardcore leet raiders... obviously.

Well it is SE after all, they've never been good at finding a middle ground.

I agree my post's biggest flaw is generalizing this into three categories. That was incredibly stupid.

If some people want to throw me into a category of casual; then so be it. I play probably 8 hours a week. If I told someone who does not play video-games that I play video-games 8 hours a week they would think I'm an addict. It's all going to be opinionated.

In RL land I'm a married attorney who recently had a kid. Time is important thus I analyze I how spend it. During 2.0 I'd say Titan / T1 / T2 was the pinnacle of intermediate content. I felt rewarded for that extra time I played to clear those runs. Since 2.2 - I feel that I could half the amount of time I play and practically be at the same place two patches later. In my opinion, the extreme primals of 2.3 were the equivalent to what Titan HM and T1 / T2 were at 2.0 (this is what I deem intermediate content). Unlike 2.0, the 2.3 intermediate content rewarded nothing additional to the casual content.

Basically I feel that I could have played half the amount of time (not done the extreme primal runs and not worked towards a relic) and been practically at the same place. To those saying that I'm a casual because I didn't finish T9 before 2.4 - I'd like to ask what you think the definition of a casual player is? Isn't Coil by definition "hardcore" content?

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Originally Posted by MasamuneBranford

Basically I feel that I could have played half the amount of time (not done the extreme primal runs and not worked towards a relic) and been practically at the same place. To those saying that I'm a casual because I didn't finish T9 before 2.4 - I'd like to ask what you think the definition of a casual player is? Isn't Coil by definition "hardcore" content?

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Originally Posted by Taika

Only thing that's preventing the so called "casuals" or "intermediate" players from entering final coil is T9 win (and for some, T5 win).

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

If you are just now beating T5 by this patch, you are not an intermediate, but a casual.

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Ctrl+F "T9" = only this. No one said you needed to clear T9 or you're a casual. If you didn't clear T5 yet, you are. And that's fine. 8hrs is pretty casual, also. I'm not hardcore and I clock in approximately 15hrs a week. Again, not that it's an issue, but you should accept that you're a casual. It's not a mark of a shitty player. It's just a word/category.

Because Its just a big waste of time and effort!
o_O

I finished 2 amazing games (each 50hours game play) while people get a small upgrade for 1 weapon! Oh yeah really well spend your time guys! ;D


Ohh and I cant do any Coils because the system dont let me dodge zoned attacks at 100% - Auto boot out partys.
Really frustrating.
My net conection is fast in my region, and still.. dodging an attack mostly dont work!
Extremly terrible on just Titan Hard Mode! lol I dont even fight that cheap cheater anymore - I just leave the party and take the 30mins lockout with a smile, in case silly roulette-trail threw me in there again! :x

Well, I'm gonna be the one to say it:

If you're not a hardcore player, does it really matter where you are on the progression ladder relative to others? I can understand if you're fighting to be #1 in your server, but other than that... I care much more about the content I have before me to do (in my case, Ramuh Ex and shiva later. SCoB is still a distant dream cuz ppl don't make T6 learning parties anymore, and if you try to make one, no one joins, or join only to disband after a couple of wipes) than the pace other people are progressing.

I even think it's GOOD that casuals can keep up with me and gear up fast. That means more ppl around who'd like a T6 learning group.

Generally I play between 6 and 14 hours every day, and now doing books for Animus. But I never did first Coil. So I am casual.

Coil seems to be about decorate mechanisms. Probably people are going to kick me before I decorate. Then I do not try, but neither I am sad because of this. The game is vast and is not restricted in Coil.

Wow people still don't get the basics of MMO gaming.

Let me break it down, the difference between a "casual" gamer and a "hardcore" gamer is not how many hours you play, but how passionate you are about the game.

Using the 3 terms given by OP
Casual Player = Someone who only uses a game to kill time. Whether it's 1 hour a day or 14 hours a day, other than killing time and having fun, the casual player has no vested interest in the game. If the game servers were to shut down tomorrow, the casual player would simply pick up a new time killer without much fuss. A casual player will have video games at a low priority for daily activities.
Importance scale: time > fun > winning

Intermediate Player (Moderate) = Someone who looks forward to playing a specific game once his/her real life duties are fulfilled. This type of player has some interest into the game as a whole and partakes in much of the content offered. He/she will even attempt the more challenging aspects of it because he/she will find it fun. If the game were to vanish tomorrow, the player would be a little upset. An intermediate would put video games at an elevated position on his/her priority list, and may or may not mold some of his/her schedule around to accomplish tasks within games (or be first to try out a new patch).
Importance scale: fun > time > winning

Hardcore Player = This person not only plays a game to have fun, but finds the most enjoyment out of video games in general (as opposed to going to the movies, hanging with friends, theme parks, sports, etc.) He/she has the highest level of interest in the day-to-day operation of a game and will go out of his/her way to jump on anything new to be the first to beat it. Rewards mean little to the true hardcore player, as bragging rights are the most important factor. A typical hardcore player will focus solely on a single game with the one goal of being the best at it and completing it before moving onto another. If the game were to vanish tomorrow, the hardcore player would be extremely upset by it. They would view all their commitment to the game to be wasted and may even get angry and take it personally. He/she may even find outlets to push blame onto. The hardcore player will usually be at odds with the casual player, as both will generally fail to understand each other. One will simply not get how someone can be "that" passionate about a simple game, while the other will think it's ludicrous to be spending money on a simple time-killer and ruining it when there are free options available. The term "filthy casual" stems from these reasons.
Importance scale: winning > fun > time