@dev team ->> Thanks for bringing back party grinding, -really-

Its starting to feel more like a game.

Now keep working on improving the classic camp and pull party setup.

And please delete/kill/eradicate the leve system, and the WoW quests, and the instanced dungeon crap.

Kthx.

dude ........

PEOPLE LIKE OPTIONS!

i leave it at that....

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Originally Posted by mysterytaru

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.]

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Definitely people like the OP, because he's actually trying to make the game worse. At least Neptune and Dyne, despite being crude and trollish, are trying to improve it.

I know. I have been waiting for the option to have fun in a party since beta.

Leve's are just party grinding with a lot of needless running around and gimmie rewards.

Instanced dungeons are just party grinding in a safe, mpk free environment, where you can collect your k-rad eleet lootz eeasy.

WoW quests are WoW quests. That speaks for itself.

I don't see why anyone would prefer that over a good old fashioned camp and pull party in a non instanced dungeon where there is some real risk and excitement associated with playing with other, real people.

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Leve's are just party grinding with a lot of needless running around and gimmie rewards.

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if you know how you can make alot of SP in no time. its not needless one star leves no thanks.

OP seems to be trollin' hard.

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Originally Posted by Zelas

OP seems to be trollin' hard.

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I'm not trolling anything. I am just expressing my opinion, like everyone else on here does. Just because you don't agree, doesn't make me a troll.

And the the guy above talking about making that fast SP.. well guy its about the journey, not the destination. I've done the leve-link static crap and all that, its what finally caused me to quit playing the game altogether for 6 months. My utter disgust with the system, the lack of fun involved, and so forth.

True FF11 style party grinding on the other hand is most fun. I don't need an SP bonus or Reward to succeed. I only need some people to party with, a camp that my group chooses to pull from, and some mobs to kill.

everytime ppl actually like stuff no one even stays on topic and calls op a troll :|

I prefer roaming parties actually, feels much more active

Technically I would say the OP is trolling.

I myself am loving seeing people all over starting to party more... honestly it was my #1 complaint since this games release as it it the whole reason I play mmos over offline games. The group aspect is what makes a mmo for me, and it is finally starting to happen so I agree thank you devs for bringing that back and keep focusing in that direction finally a mmo that is not forgetting the multiplayer part of it.

Issues with the OPs post is he is bashing everything else, the stuff the opposing sides want. And without reason to back it up, even stated and that "WoW" stuff (direct blow to the mmo that probably at least 70% of the players enjoyed at one time). This is inciting anger of a portion of the playerbase without reason, which is the definition of a forum troll. So like it or not the post is a troll post. If the Op really didn't want it to be.... the op needs to choose their words much better and at least give reason for SE to trash the casual system not just say scrap the WoW system.

My Opinion is the Game needs both, the ff playerbase wants focus on group content, the mainstream mmo world wants the option to solo all day or group. The solution is to offer both, but keep grouping the focal point with the best benefits. (only way to keep partying happening). But you have to have fun stuff for the casuals who can only play 30mins-1hr a day to play.... but those casual also have to understand they will not advance anywhere near as fast as those playing in groups, and will not be able to get the same gear without making some time for the group content. In the end it must be a fair trade off. Ease of doing it VS Reward.

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Originally Posted by DNO

dude ........

PEOPLE LIKE OPTIONS!

i leave it at that....

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Ya but you gotta remember how selfish our community has, been stated more than once that they don't want people to have freedom and only want what they like to do in the game and NOTHING ELSE! lmao >.< *Sigh* ... Besides grinding should ALWAYS be an option... this is an rpg/mmo people, get over it LoL

I'm happy more people are starting to grind. I like going out and seeing how fast my party can kill things sometimes. Other times I want to do quests and read little bits of lore, though, so keep the quests. Leves... I hate most the leves; especially the ones where the mobs run away. I only do them for the guild marks.

The WoW quest grind, instanced raiding experience is available in 100 other MMOs. Its a trite, tired, boring approach to online gaming. This style of MMO amounts to quest grinding to level cap, culminating in endless repition of the same tired raids/dungeons across 6 alternate characters, for the ultimate reward of an epic shirt with a purple outline that you can't even sell for a profit.

If 70% of you enjoy that style of MMO, then there are plenty of them out there, pick one and roll with it.

This game still has a chance to do something different.

MMO gaming should be about the journey, not the destination. The current mentality in MMO world seems to be the game starts when you hit level cap and raid. I can't think of a more dreadful outcome.

MMO gaming for me, is about grouping with other people to level up, and having fun doing it. I don't need the content to be instanced to protect me from risks other players introduce. I don't need the content to be instanced so I can get those sought after drops either. That experience is available elsewhere.

Now - With 1.18, they gave me a reason to log back into the game. It has improved now that partying actually works, but lets take a look at the history of the game.

I started in beta.

Main mechanics for leveling included

Leve's (8 every 48 hours)
Behest
Solo for very unpredicable experience points
Form a party with the maximum number of people allowed, and kill the hardest mobs you could find with the shear brute force of your party, for better, but still unpredictable experience points.

-none- of these modes of play were fun.

The partying lacked any strategy or tactic. Soloing is soloing (aka boring) and Leve's were limited (and not particularly fun for that matter)

Patches Came, Patches Went

Experience points were made predictable. That killed the raid sized grind parties.
New mode of leveling

Leve's
Behest
Soloing

I don't remember if they had reduced the timer on Leve's at this point as I had stopped doing them completely for a time period.

Patches Came, Patches Went.. Not alot changed.

I joined a static group and we leve-linked our leve's every reset.
This was the new primary mode of leveling, other than soloing during this era.

This is when I quit playing the game.

Leve's were not the camp and pull fun I was looking for. They were very short experiences that included lots of timesinks (get leve's, compare leves, figure out what links, spend anima, do leves, run to next camp, do more leves)

What they felt like were some kind of weird twilight zone version of what group play where every bad concept was adopted and implemented, and any good concept was discarded.

More time passes 1.18 comes out

Well Well, we can actually party again. The game is finally showing some progress in the right direction.

I see no reason to continue with the leve system, it reminds me of MMO welfare/Food stamps, and it also serves as a constant reminder of how totally sorry this game was up until just a couple of weeks ago.




Casual players should go play casual games. This game needs to figure out what it wants to be. If it wants to WoW or one of its many clones, then it has already failed at that.

So the obvious choice to focus on a different style.

Removing the remnants of the old is a good way to move on to something better.

Leaving systems like the leve system in place only serve to keep the game unfocused in my opinion.

Wait if we take that all out what are we going to do?

Start having fun

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Originally Posted by captainpicard

Start having fun

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I wish this post of yours was a long as the previous one.

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Originally Posted by Zelas

I wish this post of yours was a long as the previous one.

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I can only put so much wisdom on the page at once man.

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I don't see why anyone would prefer that over a good old fashioned camp and pull party in a non instanced dungeon where there is some real risk and excitement associated with playing with other, real people.

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here are some actual reasons:
monotony in several ways
no change of scenery compared to running to different areas of the same map
standing around during pulls is safe and boring
having to maneuver around undesirable mobs adds to the difficulty
attracts a wider range of gamers to add to the games lifesource
potentially allows you break of the monotony of the same mob if there are the same SP yielding yet different species of mob scattered throughout
all i cant think of right now.
most people who prefer old fashioned party camping seem to say all of the above are just excessive and unnecessary, but then again so is dying your crafts and so many other things we do in game.
we need options to level, if people want to party grind, great, but that shouldnt effect my option to level through dungeon and quest grinding which is what i and millions of other gamers enjoy and prefer over standing in one spot for hours.

i agree on some parts with OP.
I would rather grind in a party then grind through exp quest. Juat played yesterday AION with some friends and the only thing you do is accept 1000 quest in a city run out of city do what is needed for quest and run back to get your gold and exp rewards. At least it is all i have done from lvl 1-20.
Thats why i like FFxiv quest more. they are about the story and lore and not about click through text as fast as possible and do the quest for exp.

On the other hand its nice to have several options so some bigger quest could be added with good exp rewards (i mean quest out of storyline and companies).

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Originally Posted by captainpicard

I'm not trolling anything. I am just expressing my opinion, like everyone else on here does. Just because you don't agree, doesn't make me a troll.

And the the guy above talking about making that fast SP.. well guy its about the journey, not the destination. I've done the leve-link static crap and all that, its what finally caused me to quit playing the game altogether for 6 months. My utter disgust with the system, the lack of fun involved, and so forth.

True FF11 style party grinding on the other hand is most fun. I don't need an SP bonus or Reward to succeed. I only need some people to party with, a camp that my group chooses to pull from, and some mobs to kill.

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I agree man, Its what caused me to stop playing for 3 months ( more like casual on and off type deal. Quest are fine I'm all for quests, but for a system that gives you 120k tops per leve run? Getting to R50 in 1-3 weeks.. IN AN MMO?!?!? I say its a pretty flawed system, and Yoshi-P realized this and put leves on the back wheel but still making them a part of the game ( 5k sp reward for linked leves) + mobs killed sounds more right then this 120k leve fest that I couldnt believe it came into this game. In fact I never seen a Grind party.... at all... since Launch because everyone did it the easy way after they buffed leves.

Anyways, the past is the past and now this game is starting to have a FFMMORPG feel to it, No I do not want a FFXI clone, as much as I loved that game to tear and miss my character my server and everything thats in it, I don't want to play the same game. That's not saying that I want some of the elements that should be in a FF in general, Classic grinding, Chocobos, Airships those things should have been in the game, Yes classic grinding was in the game, but their really wasn't any motivation to do them. So, I agree with the OP that I'm glad party grinding is now back and I can't wait for whats in store!

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Originally Posted by MrSmiley

I prefer roaming parties actually, feels much more active

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I'd agree here. While having the option to grind for the hardcore playerbase is great, and the casuals still have a lot to choose from. I think the fishing style camping system is boring and outdated. There are situations where it's best to have a ranged attacker pull a mob in this manner but that's usually in a dungeon or when the target is sandwiched between to enemies that are not necessary to pull but may aggro.

As it is now, you get a healthy mix. No sleepy mage time for me thank you.

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Originally Posted by captainpicard

MMO gaming should be about the journey, not the destination. The current mentality in MMO world seems to be the game starts when you hit level cap and raid. I can't think of a more dreadful outcome.

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To be honest, WoW devs agree with you. I've never played WoW nor do I have an urge to, but I remember "it's about the journey" in an interview with a WoW dev when he was questioned about the new content that quickly invalidates the old content. Everyone's journey is different. The only reason people feel they need to be at cap is because that's where all the strongest gear is, and I don't think it should be anywhere else.

Personally, I'm doing an NM tour to try to get all the NM drops. I've been having fun duoing this with a linkshell member, Chatting on vent while we get drops appropriate to our level. No need to rush to 50. The only rush people feel are from pressure from the community, because trust me, every MMO dev wants to give you reasons to keep playing. They don't ever want you to finish, and the majority of the player base wants this as well. That's one of the reasons they've agreed to pay a monthly fee to play in a persistent world. They want a familiar place to hang out while getting new content on a regular to semi-regular basis. If there's no new content, the experience falls into a lull, and the grind begins to feel to grindy.

@OP I'm with you on the party situation. Once it becomes more productive with better camps and plenty of mobs with good respawn times it'll be streamlined.

And can I say that I'm tired of this whole troll notion that everyone throws at each other because people disagree or make an argument. By the looks of the forums...everyone is a troll considering how much the term gets thrown around. Stop with the troll remarks, they're not needed, we understand you roam the forums looking to call someone it...it's done with...and played out. Let me save the person who wants to throw it out there...I live in a cave or isolated mountain and I eat people.

I agree with a good bit of what the OP said, And I think the game has indeed gotten much better, but I feel too much damage is done. Which puts me on the edge if I really want to continue playing. Too many multi 50's players out there who abused broken mechanics to get cap in 1-3 weeks of playtime. Same thing in ffxi, Astral Burns made anyone who worked for a there 75's a joke. Although I quit ffxi because of that, and feel saddened that I may never see FFXIV turn into something nice as the damage has been done.

As for grind camp vs roaming vs quest hubs;

I love a good "camping", running around killing shit gets tiresome and just annoying. Quest hubs are nice, for the random moments although I could careless about exp from quest as I don't feel they should have exp tied with them. Quest are for lore, not some how making you stronger because you read a line "Thanks for milking my Rabbit" *You gain 2385 SP*. Reaaaallly now? I talked to this guy and I feel stronger, then again that's usually what happens when you get a hand job behind the barn.

Grinding? What's that? No grinding on Lindblum. Only a few R45 dungeon parties that take R50 cons and arcs xD
Seriously! With the broken leves we had a time we just got on and found a party almost right away. Now you basically gotta wait in town all day hoping that a eft-party forms -_-
/hyperbole off
Hopefully SE will help us a bit by pimping those leve rewards enough.

I wouldn't be so hard on the op, they just prefer camping over the other options. Should those options be removed? No keep them. Should they be fleshed out? Yes.

Personally i like the hybrid camp/roaming sp parties. Now if there in the mix say some super hard mobs that once killed gave 3-5k sp on something of a 15 minute timer that would enhance the experience and bring some risk to the structure and lechanics of a party grind.

@ Galoot don't forget you also have a neckbeard, to go with living in a mountain and eating people. Its a requirement.

Agree with OP and agree that roaming feels more free. ^^

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Originally Posted by captainpicard

Its starting to feel more like a game.

Now keep working on improving the classic camp and pull party setup.

And please delete/kill/eradicate the leve system, and the WoW quests, and the instanced dungeon crap.

Kthx.

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No thanks.

Having variety is great. Quests, leves and raids make the grind feel less grindy.

Standing in place killing the same mob over and over to cap is archaic, dull and will seriously hurt this game if it becomes the only way to level.

Personally, I'd rather see a few more dungeons added as the intended group leveling method. It's more fun to work toward rewards and rare drops while leveling rather than to just mindlessly be unchallanged in a pull and kill style camp.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

Technically I would say the OP is trolling.

I myself am loving seeing people all over starting to party more... honestly it was my #1 complaint since this games release as it it the whole reason I play mmos over offline games. The group aspect is what makes a mmo for me, and it is finally starting to happen so I agree thank you devs for bringing that back and keep focusing in that direction finally a mmo that is not forgetting the multiplayer part of it.

Issues with the OPs post is he is bashing everything else, the stuff the opposing sides want. And without reason to back it up, even stated and that "WoW" stuff (direct blow to the mmo that probably at least 70% of the players enjoyed at one time). This is inciting anger of a portion of the playerbase without reason, which is the definition of a forum troll. So like it or not the post is a troll post. If the Op really didn't want it to be.... the op needs to choose their words much better and at least give reason for SE to trash the casual system not just say scrap the WoW system.

My Opinion is the Game needs both, the ff playerbase wants focus on group content, the mainstream mmo world wants the option to solo all day or group. The solution is to offer both, but keep grouping the focal point with the best benefits. (only way to keep partying happening). But you have to have fun stuff for the casuals who can only play 30mins-1hr a day to play.... but those casual also have to understand they will not advance anywhere near as fast as those playing in groups, and will not be able to get the same gear without making some time for the group content. In the end it must be a fair trade off. Ease of doing it VS Reward.

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This^ there is no reason to remove guildleves completely for solo players, and I dont' get the OP's problem with instanced dungeons.

However the people who want to kill grouping by making WoW questing the most attractive option for leveling need to just go play WoW. Honestly you have ruined enough modern MMO's, no one but a very very tiny minority of people actually enjoys (not tolerates) that style of leveling.

You people (wolfie, dyne, neptune etc.) need to stop pretending like that is in anyway modern, and that grouping to level is an outdated idea. It's an MMO people play these games because they like being social, evidence of this is what most people do at endgame. There is no evidence the majority of people like to play solo up until then, most people just do this because it is fast and easy so they can get to the "real game".

I also disagree with the poster above me that instances should be a primary means of leveling. Content should be content, and during mid level content if you get some XP that's great but that shouldn't be people's goal going in. Leveling should be leveling. When you mix the two you make both lackluster.

very glad that party grind is back, i'm all 50's so can't really try it but i see lot of people doing it in ls so i'm looking forward to it one day when jobs get implemented and we get new classes (arcanist and mustketeer).

but i don't like how it's mostly duo, trio. i like the whole 6man thing in ffxi ..i rather solo then duo. i want at least 4man groups, but prefer more, they did start this game off being able to do 15man groups, drop to 8 but i never hear anyone grinding with 8. so happy that the grind is back, still not happy enough with how many people doing it. duo is not a party ...hell 4man is just cutting it. but options are good so, i quess at some point larger group grinds will become known or available for those who like that so /cheer.

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Originally Posted by captainpicard

Its starting to feel more like a game.

Now keep working on improving the classic camp and pull party setup.

And please delete/kill/eradicate the leve system, and the WoW quests, and the instanced dungeon crap.

Kthx.

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Sillyest post ever. I can't believe you even got a few likes, only on the XIV forums. MORE things in game the BETTER. Please.

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Originally Posted by Speeral

I wouldn't be so hard on the op, they just prefer camping over the other options. Should those options be removed? No keep them. Should they be fleshed out? Yes.

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Wouldn't not have been so hard on the OP if they had just rejoiced over party camps and not made the comment to remove a part of the game I happen to enjoy a lot more then straight grinding. His black and white view of things is rampant around here and in my opinion needs to die.

When you've got a community you find yourself with many preferences. Deal with it.

Sure, take out all levequests, all sidequests, all dungeons and leave the game in its bare state it was 11 months ago, except with LESS.

bad thinking.

Leves: casual pla-

ugh... why am I writing this...

Anyway, in a nutshell, Yoshi-P wants both Casual and Hardcore players to have fun. We NEED Levequests, Sidequests and Dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

Technically I would say the OP is trolling.

I myself am loving seeing people all over starting to party more... honestly it was my #1 complaint since this games release as it it the whole reason I play mmos over offline games. The group aspect is what makes a mmo for me, and it is finally starting to happen so I agree thank you devs for bringing that back and keep focusing in that direction finally a mmo that is not forgetting the multiplayer part of it.

Issues with the OPs post is he is bashing everything else, the stuff the opposing sides want. And without reason to back it up, even stated and that "WoW" stuff (direct blow to the mmo that probably at least 70% of the players enjoyed at one time). This is inciting anger of a portion of the playerbase without reason, which is the definition of a forum troll. So like it or not the post is a troll post. If the Op really didn't want it to be.... the op needs to choose their words much better and at least give reason for SE to trash the casual system not just say scrap the WoW system.

My Opinion is the Game needs both, the ff playerbase wants focus on group content, the mainstream mmo world wants the option to solo all day or group. The solution is to offer both, but keep grouping the focal point with the best benefits. (only way to keep partying happening). But you have to have fun stuff for the casuals who can only play 30mins-1hr a day to play.... but those casual also have to understand they will not advance anywhere near as fast as those playing in groups, and will not be able to get the same gear without making some time for the group content. In the end it must be a fair trade off. Ease of doing it VS Reward.

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Is it really any worse than the opposite side misrepresenting their personal opinions with comments like "This is what gamers want" or "normal people don't like to grind".

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Originally Posted by captainpicard

"... its about the journey, not the destination..."

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I completely agree,
I loved the journey in 11, and would love to see the return to a camp and pull system to 14, i dislike roaming parties and for a game that encourages potional play per class it makes very little sense to have roaming parties!!

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Originally Posted by Embers

I completely agree,
I loved the journey in 11, and would love to see the return to a camp and pull system to 14, i dislike roaming parties and for a game that encourages potional play per class it makes very little sense to have roaming parties!!

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Positional <~~ sorry can't edit spelling on original post from my phone :-(

This game needs more quests, desperately. Not the kind that just reward SP/EXP for barely doing anything though.

I'm not even a "questing for EXP" MMO-er, but we need variety. So far we have a very small sample of quests to do that won't even dent leveling at all (Main-scenario aside, even that's barely anything).

Leve's are in a sense "dailys", but we need more epic/fun quests & repeatable quests. This game, practically, forces you to wait until leve reset if you aren't into monster grinding. What about leveling multiple classes? Nope, wait for reset (behests are a joke).
Some people have been repeating dungeons, but barely anyone. This game is still as dead as ever (in the MMO sense). Patch 1.18 was a milestone, but not the one that drew people back (only a handful).

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Originally Posted by Tezz_Xivectro

This game needs more quests, desperately. Not the kind that just reward SP/EXP for barely doing anything though.

I'm not even a "questing for EXP" MMO-er, but we need variety. So far we have a very small sample of quests to do that won't even dent leveling at all (Main-scenario aside, even that's barely anything).

Leve's are in a sense "dailys", but we need more epic/fun quests & repeatable quests. This game, practically, forces you to wait until leve reset if you aren't into monster grinding. What about leveling multiple classes? Nope, wait for reset (behests are a joke).
Some people have been repeating dungeons, but barely anyone. This game is still as dead as ever (in the MMO sense). Patch 1.18 was a milestone, but not the one that drew people back (only a handful).

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It drew alot of people back on Selbina. But then again Selbina has a large population of FFXI players. I think it's kind of silly that people complained about guildleves all this time and now want repeatable quests as if they are anything really different, but if that's how people like to play I'm all for Yoshi's (or at least whoever wrote our letter to the producer) idea of letting all types of people play how they want.

That does mean however that solo quest grinding cannot give equal XP to an efficient party all working together for their XP, because then all types of people can't play how they want. That's just the way it is unfortunately, and you can see it in all the newer MMO's. It is tragic how people who like to play in groups in MMO's have been neglected in the post WoW-clone era of MMO's. Well except for at endgame, but that would be even worse in a multi-job game like this.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

It drew alot of people back on Selbina. But then again Selbina has a large population of FFXI players. I think it's kind of silly that people complained about guildleves all this time and now want repeatable quests as if they are anything really different, but if that's how people like to play I'm all for Yoshi's (or at least whoever wrote our letter to the producer) idea of letting all types of people play how they want.

That does mean however that solo quest grinding cannot give equal XP to an efficient party all working together for their XP, because then all types of people can't play how they want. That's just the way it is unfortunately, and you can see it in all the newer MMO's. It is tragic how people who like to play in groups in MMO's have been neglected in the post WoW-clone era of MMO's. Well except for at endgame, but that would be even worse in a multi-job game like this.

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It's not about the difference but about the presentation. It's all a mental feeling that those kinds of players get off on.
Repetitious grinding is actually horrific now, and we still need chains along with a few other things to spice it up (personally, i want this first).

My idea of a "repeatable quest" would be something like Fields of Valor or a town quest that you must farm a group of monsters for X of X item (only being able to obtain X item after the quest has been started).

It is a shame that it's either 1 or the other these days in MMOs. Mainly leaning more & more anti-social.