"Wait, why are you posting this on the DPS thread? Wouldn't it be more effective as a healer? Don't we have too many DPS anyway?" Yes, I know, but hear me out. This may actually work if you seriously sit down and think about it.
The Red Mage. Jack of all trades, master of none. Enfeebling *champions* back in Final Fantasy XI (as well as being able to do...well, pretty much *anything they wanted to* with certain setups). Ultimately, a possibly broken class to sit down and figure out. Apparently, Yoshi-P would assume that RDM would be a backline, staff-using, support-class enfeebler. While I do agree about the enfeebler status...staves just...don't work for the class, in my eyes. Red Mages have traditionally used swords (*almost* exclusively rapiers) alongside their magical abilities.
So let's play with that notion and introduce a brand new class to the job: Fencer.
Fencer would be what you'd call a very fancy sword-wielder, able to thrust and hit opponents in their weak spots or vital organs. As it stands, we already have a sword-wielding tank in the Gladiator/Paladin combination, but the idea of a sword-wielding *DPS* class wouldn't distance away from other players, would it?
So you have a new Fencer guild, placed in either Ul'dah or Gridania for proper effect. You start fighting with it, you get your first weapon skill, an ability at level 2...
...and then a spell at level 4. Not to mention the help text on both the spell and your first WS have a Combo Bonus on them, listing specific debuffs on them...say, a poison or Paralyze or something.
And when your level 5 quest comes around, the whole idea of Fencer (and Red Mage as a whole) unfolds: by comboing in different attacks and spells in tandem, you gain the ability to place enfeebles upon the enemy, whether it's by striking a vital organ to cause the target to bleed for a bit, or by freezing them in just the right way to slow them down by a little. Later quests come down the road to both train you on these different enfeebles as well as teach you a valuable lesson in the class: as the enfeebles are of a short duration (5 seconds at *most*, but they'd be unresisted to balance it), the only way to keep them consistently up is to alternate both the specific WS and spell in order to keep those debuffs upon the opponent. The moment you let up, it restarts. Give it abilities to help buff the next enfeeble landed in either potency or duration, and throw in a few extra abilities that either increase physical or magical damage, while *possibly* decreasing the opposite in turn.
And *then* comes the unlocking of Red Mage. Assuming the lore behind it, you could make the unlock requirements FNC30/THM15 (optional job being CNJ), to give it abilities and spells from both the White and Black "schools" of magic. This is when RDM becomes on its own. Give it a starting ability to immediately place an enfeeble from any spell or WS from the get-go, to speed its duties up that much more. Anything after that could include its own Convert or Refresh ability (so it can keep up with its own MP consumption, although spells could have somewhat lower MP costs to counterbalance), its own party-wide buff spell (increased Determination or the like), and a final ability that enables it to immediately throw out move after move with only a split second's wait on the GCD (something akin to Chainspell from FFXI, although *severely* nerfed...think River of Blood and Perfect Balance).
Gear-wise? That's where the "JoaT, MoN" mindset that RDM is *known* for comes into play. Give most of its unique, left-side gear a mix of either primarily STR or INT, to buff either their melee or magic capabilities. Allow players to either choose going into their melee side or their magic side for competent damage-dealing, as most of their spells and weapon skills would straight-out deal damage. That, and their debuffing prowess wouldn't be hindered by either of these, thus allowing a few different play styles to come out of this.
Do you throw yourself to the physical side of things, and get the most bang for your buck on your weapon skills? Do you consider yourself more of a caster, and focus your damage more on your spells? Do you choose to go straight down the middle, being decent at both, but not *excel* at either? It's all up to you. You are the Red Mage. *You* choose your path you want to go. And, regardless, you'll still be enfeebling enemies as you land attacks and spells...while having plenty of fun while doing it.
The Possible Red Mage Solution
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10-20-2014, 09:24 AMSlvr_StrykerThe Possible Red Mage Solution
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10-21-2014, 03:55 AMroninoftagrm
i think the starting town would be limsa due to the fact its more Renaissance, ie the musketeers, however this leads to the possibility that SE would make a fencer/musketeer and give him/her 2 crystals, one for red mage, the other musket, and then theres the possibility of said fencer being like nero with the gunsword(not dmc4 nero, the cohort with the awesome helmet), with debuffing bullets, and en- buffs with different effects(empty hand enhancers like star ocean 3s fayt buffs)
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10-21-2014, 06:16 PMCatapult
Let me help you.
Look at the midlander girl at the front of this image:
I spy a Rapier.
I also like the idea of a melee class that uses INT as its primary stat, channeling magic through its blade for enchanted slashes. -
10-22-2014, 07:25 AMAlice_89th
If you place a fencing guild anywhere, I would like it to be Ishgard. Fanciful fencing matches sound like a perfect pasttime for Ishgardian nobility.
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10-22-2014, 02:52 PMRegentP
Play XI later on, there is a fencer job its called Rune Fencer(Great Sword A+), while I did play it with RDM in XI, I think it was the same except Rune Fencer was a Tank class, kind of like a SCH with special PLD caster but instead of shield/sword oath, Fire/ice oath basically. its damage came from buffing it weapon with elemental damage. a Melee mage could be an easy fix, but I don't thing Black and white make Red. (lol)
Lets be honest, this job should act like bard, DPS like Paladin, and play like White mage. What I mean is when you have a RDM it's going to melee it needs a simple combo, that return MP often. When a healer or tank need MP or HP, one caster TP-ish Regen, and MP Type media II.
It would have 4 combo but would Buffs all the classes, for example PAL, where fast blade- savage blade- rage of halone. Savage blade interchangeable, with 6 moves that Buff either Str, Dex, Vit, INT, Mind, and Piety. The 4th is a shuts off move for all 6 moves burns MP. -
10-22-2014, 07:35 PMDuelleI'm glad to see other people are coming to that conclusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice_89th
That said, I'd expect there to be some sort of passive stat conversion if you're even thinking of implementing a hybrid of any sort. This applies to any hybrid, but yes RDM needs it more than others simply to create that versatility without a) making the job overpowered and b) shackling it to roles it has no business doing (read: tank, heals, buff-botting). Hence my suggestion of having fencer be at the base a DPS class with the RDM crystal bringing in the utility in a way that would make sense for the job while entirely avoiding the problems RDM's last MMO incarnation ran into.
Take your pick, with enspells or without. -
10-23-2014, 01:41 PMSlvr_Stryker...part of me likes this idea, but I still kinda want to keep to the heart of being able to choose whether or not to focus your main damage on either your spells or your skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by RegentP
That being *said*, a thought comes to mind regarding your comment, as it would start to need a way to quickly regain its MP off the bat. Maybe give it something like the Fast Blade >> Riot Blade combo that GLA has, then allow it a fairly weak Refresh and Regain ability through the FNC class...with the option of maybe allowing the next buffing ability to become radial (ala Protect, limited to buffing abilities) on a much longer cooldown through RDM quests...thus allowing a sort of buffing mechanic.
However, truth-be-told, the other part of me *really* wants to keep RDM as a pseudo-hybrid DPS that uses debuffs as its main mechanic rather than buffing. Players get buffs all the time...and we hardly gain access to the standard debuffs like Poison, Paralyze, and the like...aside from those poisons, anyway. It would give us an alternate option when looking forward to...well, *any* content, now or in the future. -
10-24-2014, 02:52 AMWarrlordd
You guys do know that RDM was originally a hybrid healer/caster/melee class? it was awesome, in FF3 to be a RDM. I would welcome something like that returning to FFXIV:ARR
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10-24-2014, 03:33 AMDuelleSadly, just like the calamity has done in FFXIV, FFXI messed with a lot of people's perception and memory of Red Mage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrlordd
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10-25-2014, 04:22 AMSlvr_Stryker
You most certainly have that right, Duelle. Granted, I didn't really focus on RDM myself when I played XI, but I understand the problems.
That being said, I did gloss over your ideas behind the concept of Fencer and Red Mage, and while I do *enjoy* the concepts you bring to the table, I hold a few nitpicks to them...just as much as I'm sure you hold a few nitpicks to my take as well. ^^;
1: All around, while I do *understand* the concept of Fencer using DEX as its primary damage modifier...I don't outright like it. Granted, that's only due to what the game does with the stats, and I don't like that they've made Rogue/Ninja appear to use DEX either for the same reasons.
2: I enjoy the spellblade variants on your first concept. However, I personally don't think it's *enough*. In keeping in mind of the "jack of all trades" role, I ultimately do want it to begin to learn actual magic at some point. That's not to say that spellblade attacks wouldn't work; in fact, your initial concept involving them sorta fits in with the theme if you incorporate the debuffs from the second RDM concept you have, along with them costing both TP and MP. Maybe make them one-off attacks that don't combo into anything else, with longer-lasting debuffs than the WS/spell combos I'm thinking of.
As for your thoughts on a stat conversion, it gives me an idea for another ability that RDM could possibly learn: an ability that swaps their STR and INT for a set duration, but has a long cooldown attached to it so as to prevent it from becoming utterly broken. It would allow the opening of focusing on one part, but swapping over if something has (for example) higher defense than magic defense. -
10-25-2014, 04:39 AMRegentP
I think from previous FF??? series, I Feel RDM was meant to be this overpowering class that bridge the ability the used to be ready for any fight in the game. Take XI for example, it had 6 member in a full party, even if you wanted to push the DPS in a group, having a party member that could Heal & DPS was need, but In XIV it would be more used to phase out the Bard class and the back up healer. Where 2 RDM would be extremely beast.
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10-27-2014, 09:33 AMDuelleThis could be changed to STR, thought it was also to help Mystic Knight (Fencer's other job) have a higher parry threshold than PLD and WAR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slvr_Stryker
Well, we should keep in mind that most renditions of RDM borrow heavily from the other jobs. This is why I think it has enough leeway through the cross-class spells to sort of create that library of borrowed magic RDM has had in other FFs. The second concept was my attempt to give the job six spells of its own, with Battle Cast as the switch between, say, melee-range slow (Frost) and a ranged attack that deals higher damage (Battle Cast+Frost). This way you have the melee foundation, healing spells and offensive magic rolled into one while still keeping it within one role in the trinity.Quote:
2: I enjoy the spellblade variants on your first concept. However, I personally don't think it's *enough*. In keeping in mind of the "jack of all trades" role, I ultimately do want it to begin to learn actual magic at some point.
Assuming we were to keep the base class, fencer does present a sort of restriction of what base you can build RDM into. With DRK having no base class, there's a chance RDM may be similarly implemented. -
10-27-2014, 05:42 PMcoolguy48457Red Mage..
Im not really seeing this happening, there is already talks of reworking the class system in 3.0, this could easily entail changing the job skills from the base class skills to diversify the job from the class further, this would allow you to do so much more with jobs considering you would no longer have to take the base skills from the class into consideration when coming up with a new job for that class. That being said, I would be quite happy to see the Red Mage spawn from gladiator, and be more of a physical presence with spell enhancements and ranged attacks to keep persistent dps up all phases...I just cant imagine a Red Mage without a sword and shield...and for that sword to only be looks would be abysmal... This class needs to be melee with a few (scourge like) spells to spam while kiting around....it needs to utilize both TP and MP and have support spells like the selene healing fairy...
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10-28-2014, 01:40 AMOrrias
The main appeal of a RDM ('a jack of all traits, master on none') is also it's main downfall for it to be added to the Class>Job system in FF14.
In the FF series, a RDM has typically been the rapier-wielding caster that uses an array of mid level BLM, WHM, and caster support spells.
With the current Class to Job setup in FF14, the RDM would have to have at least 3 base class for it to make sense (e.g. GLD, THM, & WHM), which could malign the overall image of the RDM being a somewhat strange Frankensteinish mess of a Job, in comparison to the rest of the streamlined Jobs available ingame.
The only other possible solution (under the current system) would be to do something akin to the Dark Knight, in that you would either have to omit the base Classes entirely, or have BLM & WHM as the base Classes, with some type of story plot/ themed patch (or expansion) that leads casters to take up the sword. :/
As for the dynamics of how the Job would play, I think a melee version of a BRD would be a good idea. I think a dotting/ debuffing melee with party wide buffs could be the niche that the RDM could fill. In addtion to the proposed play style mentioned, perhaps inorder to add the caster element to the Job of the Red Mage, a system similar to the MNK's self buffs could be implemented (e.g. elemental self buffs applied to their weapon). Who knows, maybe if they were to be the 2nd 'support' Job, they could usher in a new type of limit break.
To be honest, RDM is one of those iconic classes/ jobs in the FF series that would be great to have (in theory) in FF14, but in actuality, would be difficult to properly implement.
That's my 2 cents anyway.