No Job Stone

First let me begin by saying this isn't a rant by no means but more of a curiosity.

Lately i have ran into tanks in HM/EX roulette that don't equip their stone... when asked why in a polite matter i either get no response or.. the newest "experimenting". I can understand i suppose trying new things out but Why in DF? (Mrd may be able to hold hate better then a Gld.. .for the love of god don't try to tank without shield oath o.<) Is their a reason so many tanks are refusing to use them?

I'm by no means a tank and would hate to play one in a dungeon setting lol so thank you to all the lovely tanks out there :p

Besides the obvious wide range of cross over abilities I feel you'd be heavily gimping your char let alone the pt you are in. :confused:

(couldn't find a funny pic to place here so pretend its something awesome >.>)

Main Class Tanner????????

Some people do it for more access to other cross class abilities, though honestly and im saying this as both a Warrior and Paladin tank i think its stupid to neuter yourself from having Defiance or Shield Oath just for a couple abilities from cross class. Luckily i have not run into anyone like this in my time playing though i usually run with FC mates or friends.

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Originally Posted by Kanadiana

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I figured that was all it was, seems silly to me lol

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Originally Posted by LilRedAlchemist

Main Class Tanner????????

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Tanner(leather-working) was actually my first 50 and so it stays there :p

I don't specifically main as a tank. I do however have both to 50 and when I get the itch I prefer Paladin for the mitigation. I can say with all confidence that it is beyond insane to run anything past 40 as a Paladin without shield oath up and expect to keep enmity. Now going without any job skills period is asking for trouble.

I won't claim to be the "expert" on tanking in this game. God knows I have far too many quirks from LotRO to try and make myself an elite class one but I know better than that. They don't give those job utilities for looks.

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Originally Posted by Aelinau

I can understand i suppose trying new things out but Why in DF? (Mrd may be able to hold hate better then a Gld.. .for the love of god don't try to tank without shield oath o.<)

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Learn how to tank before you tell others how to, there is no reason why you should spend all of tanking time in shield oath in hm/ex roulette content and if someone does they are a bad tank.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

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I alrdy said im not a tank.. learn to read, 2nd that was for keeping hate... if you can keep hate without a stone more power to you.. why not add some reason to why you would use no stone then finding a reason to be a troll ^^/

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Learn how to tank before you tell others how to, there is no reason why you should spend all of tanking time in shield oath in hm/ex roulette content and if someone does they are a bad tank.

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You have completely missed the point of this thread, she even said shes trying NOT to. She's wondering why you wouldn't wear a soul crystal jesusss

Even taking shield oath off the list pretty sure sword oath can't be made up for dps wise with the CC skills.

If you go as GLD or MRD you can pull Blood for Blood, Raging strikes and stuff cross class.
Then since you're doing so much damage, and still get your enmity combo and things it's possible to keep hate.

Plus if you're doing trial roulette, for example, you never really need two tanks. So bring the damage! I'm always amazed at how few tanks I run into with strength accessories in the easy/highly overgeared content.

I can understand people going as marauders(with the right accessories a marauder can put up as much if not more dps than a bard thanks to the cross class skills), but I can't think of any reason, short of just doing it to challenge yourself, that running as a gladiator would be a good idea, as the cross class skills wouldn't make up for the loss of sword oath

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Learn how to tank before you tell others how to, there is no reason why you should spend all of tanking time in shield oath in hm/ex roulette content and if someone does they are a bad tank.

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Wait wait wait wait. I shouldn't have shield oath on to reduce 20% dmg at all times? I shouldnt have defiance on so i cant get my Inner Beast?

MY TANK LIFE HAS BEEN A LIE!!!!

Yeah because you don't need it, higher DPS is a greater party contribution than mitigating damage that doesn't need to be mitigated.

It's because they are stupid players. Nothing more, nothing less.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Learn how to tank before you tell others how to, there is no reason why you should spend all of tanking time in shield oath in hm/ex roulette content and if someone does they are a bad tank.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Yeah because you don't need it, higher DPS is a greater party contribution than mitigating damage that doesn't need to be mitigated.

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http://i.minus.com/iYhfgAhpsIdEJ.gif

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Yeah because you don't need it, higher DPS is a greater party contribution than mitigating damage that doesn't need to be mitigated.

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And here we have the rare and endangered strong independent gladiator who dont need no job crystal...She will not survive the winter.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Yeah because you don't need it, higher DPS is a greater party contribution than mitigating damage that doesn't need to be mitigated.

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So... lumping all of the mobs into a big pile for the two i109 BLMs I typically run with to absolutely nuke into oblivion isn't a greater contribution to DPS than my non-sword-oath damage? That's news to me.

I'd hate to make a healer try to heal me through that without Shield Oath on.

I'd hate to try even attempting to hold hate through it.

You can do that in sword oath dude, and healing is a snooze on that level of content. Holding hate is easy.

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Originally Posted by Rysir

And here we have the rare and endangered strong independent gladiator who dont need no job crystal...She will not survive the winter.

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I never said go gladiator that isn't even a DPS gain vs using sword oath.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

You can do that in sword oath dude, and healing is a snooze on that level of content. Holding hate is easy.



I never said go gladiator that isn't even a DPS gain vs using sword oath.

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Okay I'll go serious mode, the discussion is about the oddity of tanks not using job crystals while tanking so yeah.

Were they having problems with enmity?

Out of curiosity, are the ones you seeing actually doing the main tanking during these duties, or not?

If, for instance, me and a buddy are about to enter Titan HM as two tanks but we don't have a full group of 8, I'll go as MRD instead. He can main tank it just fine by himself, I really do not need anything that WAR gives me. Defiance is for when I'm actually being the tank, not when I'm basically just a DPS who tanks if everything goes horrifically wrong. Because I'm not using Defiance, none of the WAR abilities are useful at all. Being in MRD instead gives me access to several damage enhancing abilities I otherwise wouldn't have access to, and I can do what I need to do better - which is the deeps.

Now I can't say I'd do it just randomly for EX Primals or Turn 5+, but yeah.

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Originally Posted by TheMax1087

I can understand people going as marauders(with the right accessories a marauder can put up as much if not more dps than a bard thanks to the cross class skills)

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Since when marauders started to do 350-400+ dps?

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

Since when marauders started to do 350-400+ dps?

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Not full-time, but MRD's burst is insane when you are 30 STR build with full STR jewellery.

Either way, any Nexus farm group worth its salt maximizes the DPS output (the tank without a job stone may already have the Nexus). I see these a lot in trial roulette and I facepalm every time I see those MT PLDs tanking Garuda or Ifrit in full VIT accesories and Shield Oath, when full STR and Sword Oath can do it very easily as well. Bad, bad tanks. I can often steal hate from these people in just Sword Oath, unless they suck and just spam hate combo.

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Originally Posted by Edli

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hate was all over the blm and me the smner.. we even tried to turn down our dps as to not stress the healer

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Originally Posted by Garlyle

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This was the roulette 4 man dungeons so they were
"MT"... if that's what you'd like to call it :p

The only question needed to be answered. Did they have hate problems?

If the answer is no.

Why even care.

As long as a tank does what he should for what he joined a group I am in. Keeping hate. I don't careif he has his soul gem on or not.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

So... lumping all of the mobs into a big pile for the two i109 BLMs I typically run with to absolutely nuke into oblivion isn't a greater contribution to DPS than my non-sword-oath damage? That's news to me.

I'd hate to make a healer try to heal me through that without Shield Oath on.

I'd hate to try even attempting to hold hate through it.

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I had a GLD in Hullbreaker that used sword oath and the result was a tanking bard, half the trash pulls nibbling my leg and me being beaten to death by the first boss. Ive seen tanks that know what to do, have shield oath on for trash and sword oath sometimes on bosses (depends on the boss) but even with a tank that can play his/her class I still get sweaty palms and have vivid flash backs to my time as a gorilla punch bag.

I always go Marauder on my tank when I do trial roulettes, because there is no such need for two tanks. The cross skills make it more interesting to play and always amazing to see a butcher's block do 1.6k damage. Of course... if the other tank is new, or has trouble keep aggro, I would step up and TRY to MT as a marauder, lol. Only trial that can be troublesome as a class would be titan HM. Other then that... I don't seem to lose aggro, either.

One thing I got to mention... Marauder can actually be useful for leveling in low level roulette, but be very VERY mindful of this because if you get put into something like Brayflox or Stone Vigil... it will be painful. Otherwise, if you get something like Tam Tara, Hakku Manor, then you can really kick some serious ass with Overpower with Raging strikes and Invigorate, lol.

FOREWARNING: This is not a set-stone "You must do this, or you're bad!", this is what I personally do.

(This applies for Warrior, for Paladin I find there's no point going Gladiator)

PVP (There's virtually no point to going WAR for Defiance/Wrath)
HM Trial (Two Tanks > Let the other tank)
Dungeons > Low (Infrequent)
Dungeons > High / Expert (There's no point, people would simply rip hate)

For the aforementioned above, it works fine from experience.
But for Expert Roulette/Trials/Raids, it's completely pointless unless you can withhold the damage/out-gear the content.

Marauder is handy (as people have said) for the extra damage from the cross-class skills, you can pump out a little bit more damage, which is nice in some content. But it's not a "YOU MUST DO THIS", it's a personal preference. You're not going to yell at someone putting tomato ketchup on their chips because "I DONT LIKE IT THOUGH!".

Only thing I noticed with primals lately are people (tanks) who stand in every avoidable attack now. Do you get more light or something by not ..you know, dodging things?

Yeah, like others have mentioned it depends on the content, but it is more than likely ridiculous regardless.

As a healer, I'm likely going to hate your guts if I have cure you as a tank in upper level content without your job crystal. Your DPS buffs are likely going to bring overall -less- DPS than I would if I were able to switch into cleric's stance and get some stone II's in rather than cure spam your tiny HP pool.

There's a time and a place to experiment...but definitely not in 4-man.

The reason why they are doing it in DF is because no very many people on their own server would put up with that "experiment." There's no accountability in DF unless the others in the party feel put upon and take the /vote kick option.

My boyfriend is a War and the only time he drops Defiance is after a initial hate gain for a fight he knows he can dodge everything dodgable. Once someone starts approaching him on hate, pops it back on, few BB's and turns it back off. If he's offtanking, no Defiance + Str Accessories. There's no need to drop the job crystal for, what, two other abilites for a little burst in DPS? It's not worth it, especially because if the MT goes down, good luck climbing that hate list / holding hate after a Provoke with the other 4 full powered DPS wailing on them.

From my personal experience, I don't see the problem of dropping a job crystal provided you
1>Are not needed as a tank (most heroic roulette don't have a tank swap mechanic)
2>Can hold hate
3>The healer is capable of keeping you up.

-First point isn't the case for expert, you need to have a tank, no questions asked. Which would bring you to points 2 and 3.
-Doubtful that a tank can hold hate with just damage along without running defiance/shield oath, especially if the dps is overgeared.
-God forbid that the healer is relevantly geared for the content. That healer over there isn't going to have much fun healing through you without that 20% damage reduction/20% healing.

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Originally Posted by Rbstr

Plus if you're doing trial roulette, for example, you never really need two tanks. So bring the damage!

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Marauder: "If YOU don't have your job crystal, and I don't have my job crystal--"
Gladiator: "Then who's tanking the boss???"
Healer: "We're all going to die."
Dragoon: "Not my fault this time!"

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Originally Posted by Dotsusama

Marauder: "If YOU don't have your job crystal, and I don't have my job crystal--"
Gladiator: "Then who's tanking the boss???"
Healer: "We're all going to die."
Dragoon: "Not my fault this time!"

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Everyone's gonna blame the DRG for pulling aggro, just saying.

But yeah, that's about sum it up. The bottom line is, if the tank isn't maintaing aggro off the dps, he's not doing his job effectively (especially if he has gone out of his way to hinder his ability to do so, such as not using defiance/shield)

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Originally Posted by Dotsusama

Marauder: "If YOU don't have your job crystal, and I don't have my job crystal--"
Gladiator: "Then who's tanking the boss???"
Healer: "We're all going to die."
Dragoon: "Not my fault this time!"

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Yeah I was wondering that, if everyone followed that "strategy" it would be a matter of time before two tanks without job crystal meet in a trial.

Also someome mentioned blood for blood in the first page, I hope you are not using that as a job-less main tank.

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Originally Posted by Alukah

Yeah I was wondering that, if everyone followed that "strategy" it would be a matter of time before two tanks without job crystal meet in a trial.

Also someome mentioned blood for blood in the first page, I hope you are not using that as a job-less main tank.

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Tanks going into DF in full DPS mode usually cause problems because A) they force the other tank to MT (or both are paper tanks) and B) both DF healers are likely to refrain from doing much DPS if the DPS tank has significant OT duties or needs to MT, pretty much canceling out the intended benefit of having a DPS tank.

Full DPS tanks in PFs where people know the plan make perfect sense; not so much in DF.

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Originally Posted by Rbstr

Plus if you're doing trial roulette, for example, you never really need two tanks. So bring the damage! I'm always amazed at how few tanks I run into with strength accessories in the easy/highly overgeared content.

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What do you suppose would happen if both tanks happened to have the same thought?

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Originally Posted by Kimikryo

The only question needed to be answered. Did they have hate problems?

If the answer is no.

Why even care.

As long as a tank does what he should for what he joined a group I am in. Keeping hate. I don't careif he has his soul gem on or not.

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That's only one part of a tanks job, they also should actively work to reduce incoming unavoidable damage, as well as properly position enemies and stun where possible. That will always be better done using soul gem's and job abilities. If said tank prefers to play as a DPS perhaps they should have simply rolled a DPS.

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Originally Posted by Serephine

My boyfriend is a War and the only time he drops Defiance is after a initial hate gain for a fight he knows he can dodge everything dodgable. Once someone starts approaching him on hate, pops it back on, few BB's and turns it back off. If he's offtanking, no Defiance + Str Accessories. There's no need to drop the job crystal for, what, two other abilites for a little burst in DPS? It's not worth it, especially because if the MT goes down, good luck climbing that hate list / holding hate after a Provoke with the other 4 full powered DPS wailing on them.

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There's more to tanking than merely holding aggro. I'd hate to be the poor WHM trying to cure a Warrior who refuses to use the healing benefits of Defiance. Unless, of course, he only tanks one weak group at a time...