Why an ELO ranking system will help PvP tremendously.

Bold Text = TLDR Version.

People want to know that they are good at PvP. Currently the rank 40 thing does not take into account any sort of ELO ranking system. (If you don't know what ELO is, it's basically a scoring system that was developed by a chess player, which alot of PvP games use today, other games as well)

Anyways the point is just that, an ELO ranking system would help PvP blossom again, as well as adding "PvP teams" so you can play with a core team and work with friends, to make the top of the ranks, would also be a nice addition. There should also be rewards for players with a high ELO rank, BUT, make these rewards like trophies (furniture) or special glamour gear for the "Gladiators".

I know you're scared that people will fight in the community about PvP, but honestly the number of players turned off by PvP, will still be the same number even if you add an ELO ranking system! People who hate PvP, will still hate PvP no matter what! On the other hand, the number of players you attract with an ELO ranking system will be greater and compound into more and more great things for PvP in this game.

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Originally Posted by Fornix

I don't think there's much point in adding a ranking system into e.g. Wolves Den as long as the PvP itself remains broken as is. Before adding features, it'd be a good idea for SE to first fix the broken PvP in this game.

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They will never balance PvP unless they have a solid reason to, as it stands there's no point in balancing/fine tuning classes or jobs. BUT if they added a ranking system, then it will be a priority to balance PvP classes and jobs.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

And so it will remain dead. There was only ever a small number of people actually interested in PvP to begin with, and while Frontlines got a few people running it for a while now it too has gone the way of the dodo.

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Depending on what battle group you are on, Frontlines is still active. The que time is anywhere between 30mins to 60mins for frontlines maelstrom on my battlegroup.

You are also very very wrong about how many people are interested in PvP, I have spoken to many players who said they would love a "real ranking" system in PvP, they are competitive players and YES they play FFXIV. They want it, and there are many others out there that want PvP to be better than what it is. Not to mention the gear obtained from Wolves Den is utterly useless except for glamours, and hardly anyone wants to farm rank 40 just for a set of glamour. The point is that "PvP" itself is not the problem here, its the poorly designed system that deters competitive players.

They are really scared of implementing proper PvP into this game, and that is the sole reason as to why PvP is dead: dis-interest due to lack of a proper PvP system AND NOT because people simply "hate PvP" that is very VERY untrue. League of Legends is one of most played games in the entire world, and it's solely a PvP game (minus bot-mode), I reference this because there seems to be a stigma in the XIV community that specifically Final Fantasy players are against all forms of PvP, and just to reiterate again, that is very untrue.

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

This. Pvp here is based on other teammates so much that elo wont be anything else than statistics of your luck not skill I am afraid.

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Obviously then this would have to be a team-based ELO. And we're talking Wolves Den Arena here, as this cannot (and should not) be based on Frontlines. Frontlines should remain the battleground where new-comers to PvP have time to gear up and prepare for Wolves Den Ranked Arena matches and also a place where people can hone their fighting skills. Remember, I am not talking about ELO for Frontlines here, I'm talking about a Wolves Den Team Based System. Obviously personal ELO would only come into account if there was a 1v1 battle system, but that won't happen simply because of class imbalance, one class or job would always come out on top.

The idea would be that a captain creates a team, kind of like a free company. He invites however many people and those people become the set team for que'ing team based battles. Each win or loss gives you a certain ranking, and you gain rank for winning, lose rank for losing. How much you win or lose then depends on the ELO of the opposing team.

On a side note: There is still an ELO system based on your Kills/Deaths/Assists Ratio. How much healing did you do, how much damage did you do, how many objectives did you complete, how many times did you die? All that combines into a statistic for you personally, if you are talking about consistency in larger PvP matches that could be "a thing" but for now this thread will focus more on the Ranked Team Battle system. Just thought I'd mention that there is an individual performance ranking system that could be implemented as well.

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Originally Posted by Elim

But as a side note, as a healer, I'm pretty confident that I can carry a group if the numbers are evenly matched.

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I've heard someone mention League of Legends as an example of people "carrying" the team to victory. Now while it's possible that someone can get "fed" and be incredibly hard to take down, it doesn't mean that it's a 100% loss. It's the goal of the whole team to not let a person get that far ahead, and if they fail at that, it was the whole team that did something wrong. Now those people that can "carry" hard in LoL do have a very high ELO, meaning they are consistently on point and rarely make mistakes all with top notch reaction times and tactical outplays. It takes ALOT to hard carry an entire team to victory.

Now in FFXIV, Pre-SCH nerf, I've seen this happen. That was partially due to class imbalance, as SCH was way overpowered (personally still think it needs even more tweaking) but the player themselves we're mechanically very on point with their abilities. But anyhow, when it comes to Wolves Den matches, it's going to require much more teamwork and co-ordination to have a high rank. It will depend on how good you communicate and execute crowd control at the proper time, as well as damage output, who you attack or kill first and countering the opposing teams healers. There's tons of abilities that counter each other so there can be multiple team compositions that can make it far. In one instance WHM may work better than SCH, in another instance you might want a DRG over a MNK, etc. The list goes on and on, the shame in all this is that without people being competitive about PvP in general, the fine tuning of tactics and strategy in PvP will never come, simply because there's no need for a solid "balance" of jobs and classes without there being a ranking system in place.

I hope you can understand where I'm coming from, anyhow take care and hopefully a ranking system for PvP comes soon :cool:

I don't know anything about ELO ranking system but I like ranking systems so I guess I like the idea!

I'd like to see stats from frontlines, stats for each class, like average kills, average damage, kda. I love frontlines and play it as much as I can and these stats would make it more fun. Maybe stats like highest damage in a game and highest kills in a game, and yeah there are lots of options.

But I guess its the ps3 limitations thats stopping this?

I always thought of an ELO system as being for 1-on-1 types games. I don't see its applicability in something like Frontlines where a particular individual's performance is only a small factor in the team's success or failure.

Also keep in mind that SE has consistently been against any kind of "elitist" system where people could be excluded (or kicked) from content due to a ranking system.

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Originally Posted by Amnesia

I always thought of an ELO system as being for 1-on-1 types games. I don't see its applicability in something like Frontlines where a particular individual's performance is only a small factor in the team's success or failure.

Also keep in mind that SE has consistently been against any kind of "elitist" system where people could be excluded (or kicked) from content due to a ranking system.

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The point of PvP is competition, that's its sole purpose. There is always going to be arguments, honestly there are more arguments over PvE raiding in this game than PvP complaints ever heard of.

There's no "exclusion" for a ranking system, there might be prizes for reaching a certain rank, but like I said these prizes should be non-advantageous, such as glamour or funiture, or even a title! This would also be wolves den only.

Because as it currently stands, the wolves den is completely dead. Que time = ∞

I don't think there's much point in adding a ranking system into e.g. Wolves Den as long as the PvP itself remains broken as is. Before adding features, it'd be a good idea for SE to first fix the broken PvP in this game.

Have to do something about win trading - or in this case, win feeding - first if you want any form of proper ranking.

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Originally Posted by VahnValbosce

Because as it currently stands, the wolves den is completely dead. Que time = ∞

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And so it will remain dead. There was only ever a small number of people actually interested in PvP to begin with, and while Frontlines got a few people running it for a while now it too has gone the way of the dodo. No amount of ranking system is going to save PvP, because this game was not developed with it in mind.

Make PvP interesting and add PvE rewards and maybe, just maybe, you'll get a response from the crowd. Until then, it's going to be as empty as it gets.

PvP should NEVER give PVE Rewards. At least not easy obtainable, it should be at least equally hard if not thrice as hard to obtain than in PVE. Because PVP requires a different set of skills you shouldn't be rewarded with something else. That would not be fair to non PVPer that have to fight others for their drop.

I liked in WoW A token for a certain piece of gear would drop. It was a Token for a Armor slot for a specific class for a specific ilvl/rarity. You took it to the vendor and could chose betwen PVE and PVP version. Those tokens came from raid encounters.

At first I thought this had something to do with Electric Light Orchestra. o_O

Here is the news, I think this system is set to cause confusion all over the world. If you think people get stressed about PVP now, just hold on tight. It'll be a long, black road to forum war.

Maybe you're a bit more optimistic, a bit more Mr Blue Sky thinking, and you think people will change their attitude to PvP just for love of this new ranking system, but I think it'll be a showdown. So don't bring me down with your strange magic, sweet talkin' woman. Do ya get me?

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Originally Posted by Kimikryo

PvP should NEVER give PVE Rewards.

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I can't be the only one able to think outside of the box. No PvE rewards, no interest from the PvE crowd. No interest from the crowd means wolves den remains as dead as a dodo.

PvE rewards does not mean PvE gear, nor does it necessarily mean you get any significant benefits from doing so. It's funny how Guild Wars 2 manages to incorporate PvP in a meaningful way to the rest of the game, while FFXIV struggles to even make PvP relevant. And all without breaking the balance. Add myth seals (or soldiery, since myth is being removed), add glamors, make rare dyes drop in loot crates for the winning teams. See? Nothing game breaking, but still 'fun' enough to warrant participation.

Sheesh, it's no wonder they're repeating the tome rollback. Everyone's run out of ideas for how to progress the game.

Come out with a DOTA map and game style then I'm all for it! I just don't think it will work well with how many players are involved in frontlines or how crappy the Wolves Den is (win Trading). Something they could consider going forward as they add in more PvP stuffs!

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

I can't be the only one able to think outside of the box. No PvE rewards, no interest from the PvE crowd. No interest from the crowd means wolves den remains as dead as a dodo.

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I would be happy with PvP rewards actually affecting your PvP game, Moral system in frontlines anyone? Oh and currently you DO get Myth, Soldiery, PvP EXP, and Wolf Marks. But I like the idea of a Chest reward for the winning team A,B,C.

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

Oh and currently you DO get Myth, Soldiery, PvP EXP, and Wolf Marks. But I like the idea of a Chest reward for the winning team A,B,C.

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True, but the rewards are rather small, so it could be vastly improved in that area. It also doesn't take into consideration a players participation in the actual battle (ie. How well they did).

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

True, but the rewards are rather small, so it could be vastly improved in that area. It also doesn't take into consideration a players participation in the actual battle (ie. How well they did).

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That would be nice! However, this is how I cap my soldiery every week so its not too bad. My biggest concern is how long the queues take, That needs to be tweaked before adding in too many more extra features. It's coming though and I'm sure they appreciate good ideas.

Not a single like. I'm not sure who I'm more disappointed by, myself or you guys...

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

PvE rewards does not mean PvE gear, nor does it necessarily mean you get any significant benefits from doing so. It's funny how Guild Wars 2 manages to incorporate PvP in a meaningful way to the rest of the game, while FFXIV struggles to even make PvP relevant. And all without breaking the balance. Add myth seals (or soldiery, since myth is being removed), add glamors, make rare dyes drop in loot crates for the winning teams. See? Nothing game breaking, but still 'fun' enough to warrant participation.

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Myth, Sold and PvP points for Glamour, we get this already in Frontline

ELO should only exist in a 1v1 format. Your performance should never be ranked when other players can have such a huge effect on the outcome.

Two questions for OP:

1. ELO was designed for games where a 1 player is solely responsible for the outcome of his "faction". How do you adjust it for games like FFXIV, where teamwork matters every bit as much as individual skill? Would an ELO system encourage people to go off solo and find stragglers to kill?

2. How do you factor in support jobs (in FFXIV's case that's only healers)? As a WHM, for example, would my ELO rating depend solely on the people I'm teamed with to heal? If not, but if I go up against an enemy team that is good at stunning me and focusing teammates down, would my ranking go down? (But if the second healer took over, it would be fine?)

Basically, I'm having a hard time seeing ELO be effective in a truly team oriented game, where 1 person (or even several) can't carry the rest... MOBAs tend to focus more on individual performance...

That system won't work on the current PvP we have now and to be honest I hate the ELO ranking system, it creates a lot of toxicity between players that it becomes a total pain to deal with. (see what happens with LoL and ranked games) besides PvP in this game is not really competitive at all, it's just something to calm the PvP masses.

ELO at its finest! XD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98P-gu_vMRc

As a former hardcore PvPer from another MMO, I don't approve of "PvP stats" aka morale on FF14. I'd rather everyone be on the same level stats wise so winning is based on skill, tactics and team work. Which brings me to the ELO system. It'd be OK if people still used the Wolves Den(or even liked it in the first place). It doesn't sound appealing for Frontlines. Like other people have said, you can't carry that many people. To top that off, there's a shocking amount of games where light farmers will make you lose on purpose. I'm sure this will stop at some point... of course. Either way it's a problem right now.

http://i.imgur.com/4RN4BdR.jpg

What's a PvP?? Can I glamour it??

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Originally Posted by DenariusJay

What's a PvP?? Can I glamour it??

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Think its a fruit cross, Pear v Pineapple XD

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Originally Posted by Elim

As a former hardcore PvPer from another MMO, I don't approve of "PvP stats" aka morale on FF14. I'd rather everyone be on the same level stats wise so winning is based on skill, tactics and team work. Which brings me to the ELO system. It'd be OK if people still used the Wolves Den(or even liked it in the first place). It doesn't sound appealing for Frontlines. Like other people have said, you can't carry that many people. To top that off, there's a shocking amount of games where light farmers will make you lose on purpose. I'm sure this will stop at some point... of course. Either way it's a problem right now.

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I'm not convinced ELO will work in a setting like FFXIV at all, personally. MOBAs are pretty much designed to allow an exceptional (or just lucky?) player carry to a fair extent... it's even a defined role in that genre...

FFXIV depends a lot more on each teammember doing their part.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

I'm not convinced ELO will work in a setting like FFXIV at all, personally. MOBAs are pretty much designed to allow an exceptional (or just lucky?) player carry to a fair extent... it's even a defined role in that genre...

FFXIV depends a lot more on each teammember doing their part.

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This. Pvp here is based on other teammates so much that elo wont be anything else than statistics of your luck not skill I am afraid.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

FFXIV depends a lot more on each teammember doing their part.

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That's true. It probably wouldn't work.

But as a side note, as a healer, I'm pretty confident that I can carry a group if the numbers are evenly matched.

For example: My team is holding markets. Everyone leaves but me and two DPS. Suddenly we are attacked by two DPS and one healer. I'm 99% sure my team will win because I'm pretty darn good at popping cool downs at appropriate times, strafing at the right moments and LOSing if necessary. Not to sound cocky, but there are a lot of healers in PvP with extremely slow reaction times, don't even use PvP skills or are incredibly clueless in general.

We will see if they have anything planned come the Fan-Fest, if they do I'm sure they will be making an announcement about PvP changes and most likely be asked questions about it. I doubt they will scrap PvP in XIV, so here's hoping they figure out the correct way to make it more appealing for competitive players!

Well, it's kind of sad that they weren't even going to talk about PvP at the Las Vegas Live Letter until that one guy shouted it out near the very end. Shows what the priority in the development process is currently. I really think they should just hire a team of devs that specifically know how to make a good PvP game...

Anyways, I guess PvP will have to wait. Though a warning is if you wait too long to fix something, then people just slowly forget about it, even those who ARE interested in PvP will slowly dwindle in number.

Hopefully you get your act together SE and realize there's a huge playerbase that enjoys good PvP!!!

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Originally Posted by VahnValbosce

Remember, I am not talking about ELO for Frontlines here, I'm talking about a Wolves Den Team Based System.

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I was like "F..K YEAH" untill this sentence... Arenas are just too boring for my taste due small size and lack of objectives, also what gives me rush in pvp is when i get outnumbered while defending/capturing objectives(1vs2/3)and that is usually pretty rare in arena mode. Not that im against adding thise feature in WD its just that i would like to see it in FL's too, maybe SE could add ranked FL at somepoint where you can enter as premade alliance.

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That was partially due to class imbalance, as SCH was way overpowered (personally still think it needs even more tweaking)

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You do realise they removed Cleric because of White mages right ? Sch was fine ... people cryin and refusin to see that pvp is not balanced around 1 vs 1 were not

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Originally Posted by Synestra

I was like "F..K YEAH" untill this sentence... Arenas are just too boring for my taste due small size and lack of objectives, also what gives me rush in pvp is when i get outnumbered while defending/capturing objectives(1vs2/3)and that is usually pretty rare in arena mode. Not that im against adding thise feature in WD its just that i would like to see it in FL's too, maybe SE could add ranked FL at somepoint where you can enter as premade alliance.

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ELO for frontlines can still happen, but it is Sorely needed for Wolves Den, as wolves den is the official "arena" battle in this game.

Electric Light Orchestra is amazing <3