Gerolt's Masterwork Weapons: Please Continue Upgrades

I won't speak for anyone but myself here, but if you agree, like it or say so:

Given the way the Relic/Zodiac Saga weapons are meant to ultimately be the best, even at times edging out Coil/Raid weapons like it is now, I'd like it if the Gerolt Masterwork weapons were also able to be continuously upgraded. NOT through mindless RNG grinds, NOT through expensive materia melds, but through challenges and item aquisition (think original Relic quest/Rowena tokens, etc.)

Look at it like this: I have a Rosenbogen. Already, I had to upgrade it by gathering the tokens (mostly restricted by time/tome caps, much like Zenith), and a UAT which I got from ST but would have happily challenged Turn 7 for (I like Coil. Seriously.) To get those items, I had to do much more than grind, and for that reason, I'm attached to my Rosenbogen, much like I was originally attached to my Relic Zenith. It may not be the best Bard weapon, but it's MY weapon that I worked for, and though it may not hold the weight or importance of the Relic/Zodiac Saga weapons, it's still equivalent (roughly) to a Novus, therefore it's useful.

Do not make me have to throw that time and effort away.

I'll be brutally honest: I don't like the Relic/Zodiac Saga. I particularly hate it. I disagree with both the Atma portion and how it was handled by the devs, Animus just felt like a lengthy to-do list, and an uninspired one at that, and I personally have no clean words for the Novus portion of it. Nexus at least generates interest in running other content again after the Hunts, but not really in a good way. But, grind culture is grind culture. Good for some, but not for many.

As of now I feel like there's no point nor reward to being skilled or taking on greater challenges, especially if the long, easy road that is Zodiac Saga will only produce similar if not greater rewards than taking on the game's other challenges/raids. And to use Yoshida's "Theme Park" metaphor again - Why should I bother riding the thrill rides if the Merry-Go-Round will just give me the same result? Thing is, I LIKE the thrill rides. I LIKE the challenge, and while I speak for myself, I know I'm not alone in liking them.

As it stands, I have an Artemis Bow Atma gathering dust in my retainer's inventory. As a Zenith, it meant a lot to me, but the Atma and everything after completely devalued it to me. I have no intention of upgrading it, and I think of discarding it every time I see it. But my Rosenbogen? I love it. I think it's hideous, but I won't glamour it. It's my souvenir picture from the thrill rides I've experienced. It's my T-Shirt that says I took on a challenge (greater than Zodiac) and conquered it. I want to keep it. I would love to see it made better and stronger along with me. And from a lore standpoint, it's an original weapon made by the master craftsman that originally restored the relic in the first place. By that logic, it should mean something. For those of us stuck in the middle of Zodiac and high end raid weapons (destined to only be eclipsed by relic anyways), don't take away a potentially great alternative. Don't ruin our theme park experience.

It's amusing that you mention challenge in the same breath as the Gerolt Masterworks, 'cause there was definitely no challenge involved. I can't fault your lore argument, but that aside, there's no functional difference between upgrading the Gerolt Masterworks weapons and just getting new ones.

Upgrade: Get me 7 fizzywhistles, and I'll upgrade your doodad.
New weapons: Get me 7 fizzywhistles, oh here's a new weapon.

Personally, I'd rather have new weapons because that means more glamour variety.

Let me gaze into my crystal ball: Gerolt Masterworks won't be upgraded because it'll be a pain in the ass for people to play iLevel catch-up if every good weapon is upgraded from something else.

Gerolt is too drunk to mastercraft anything higher than i90.

There will be new weapons, naturally. The point I was making is since the GM weapons were one of the first upgradeable alternatives to the relic, I'd like to see that continued. And I could argue back that getting 12 Atma is no different than 10 tokens and 1 UAT (originally only attainable in Second Coil- the implied challenge), but in one of those cases, only one of those is/was an RNG drop. Still, gotta do stuff to get those tokens somehow. Is it similar to the Animus grind? Yes, actually. Is it as tedious? No. Is it as tough as Coil? No. Long easy road, tougher not-quite-shorter road, then somewhat of a happy middleground.

But hey, if new weapons would be the preferred choice, then cool, I can store my "weak" Rosenbogen soon as 2.4's new weapons arrive and remember not to bother upgrading anything ever again. Oh and I'll skip the Coil/future raid weapons too. You know, since the relic will (eventually) be better anyways. . . Something for everyone in this "theme park".

The only weapons that should have continued upgrades patch after patch are relic weapons. That's one of the reasons they are special and will be the most coveted weapon in the end.

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Originally Posted by echoica

The only weapons that should have continued upgrades patch after patch are relic weapons. That's one of the reasons they are special and will be the most coveted weapon in the end.

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Then there was never really an alternative or a need for one anyways was there?

Congratulations those of you who cleared Turn 9 or got your UAT this week, and got the weapon you may/may not have wanted. . . The person who farmed Garuda Hard Mode all weekend for Nexus lights now has a better weapon than you anyways.

On a serious note, this is not me saying Relics shouldn't be that good. Not at all. This is me saying if you offer an upgradeable alternative, don't just invalidate it with the next patch. At least not without something else equally upgradeable or comparable. Otherwise the Relic/Primal/Coil "alternatives" really aren't worth any amount of time or effort put into them.

Guess I better go cash in some tomes on an Animus book and watch a video on how to start saving up for those 150K minimum Grade IV materias.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Congratulations those of you who cleared Turn 9 or got your UAT this week, and got the weapon you may/may not have wanted. . . The person who farmed Garuda Hard Mode all weekend for Nexus lights now has a better weapon than you anyways.

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All sarcasm aside. The coil/GM weapons have been BiS since patch 2.3. You honestly cant start griping about the Relic being the best for what 2-3 weeks before 2.4?
The Relic just got a stat increase. For people who just finished T9 congrats, but I think it is unfair to judge Coil/GM vs Relic when those weapons have stood higher on the pedistal for many many weeks prior. The Coil/GM weapons have been leap frogging with the relic for a while now.

As for asking to have the GM weapons to be further upgradable, aren't you just asking for another Relic?
The GM weapons are a part of SCoB/Crystal Tower era and a new set of FCoB weapons/Shiva weapons (probably upgradable) will be available.

I know the current status of the relic vs Coil weapons is temporary, and that's just how its always been. I no less want a T9 weapon (more importantly, I just want a T9 win overall), and I do still love my Rosenbogen/GM weapons. But knowing that no matter what, Relic weapons have overall longevity, I'm left feeling like upgrading any of the alternatives is rather pointless. They'll just be replaced when newer content arrives.

And given how the relic weapon/Zodiac Saga seems to progress, I definitely don't want another relic. I do however want a less time/length-grind based alternative that involves more of a (sub-raid level) challenge, that won't be so easily replaced. The road to getting the Relic (shall we call it pre-Zenith?) was perfectly acceptable for its time - for its time - and was enjoyable to a degree. Leave the grind to those who want it, and the raids rewards to those who can rise to that challenge (I myself aiming to be in that group). But fill the gap in the middle in a more substantial way.

Your request is easily filled without the requirement of it being an 'upgrade'. It will most certainly be a new weapon, rather than an upgrade, which serves your purposes just fine. If you don't like "feeling like upgrading any alternatives is rather pointless", then you're definitely playing the wrong game. It all gets replaced in due time, get used to it.

If they were to go the upgrade route, no doubt there'd be some task that would sour your opinion on the whole endeavor anyway. "I don't like the current upgrade weapon path, so please give me another upgrade path option." You really don't see that going wrong?

Sadly, given what I've seen so far, I see it going all too wrong. . . I'm a bit upset with my own cynicism there, but to ignore it or try to pretend otherwise would be naive. SE doesn't need to go a mile to convince me otherwise, but as of yet, I'm not terribly confident.

What a coinkidink. I was just thinking of this while driving in to work this morning. A continuation of these weapons would be welcome. I think it would need to be an involved process, like requiring a (potentially) a relic zenith to fuse with the unweathered GM to become a Gerolt Primework. NOt just the zenith though. Would need an item from all the Primals, Ifrit, Garuda, Titan, Levi, Ramuh, Shiva, and also from Mog and Ultima. Items that might not "always" drop. Once you has all that you would need to find something big and bad to slay to get a final fusing item. I would like to see this.

The zodiac route for me is really hard to get into atm. I am so far behind as I have ZERO atma.

I would like to see the GM line continued.

My 2g

I would like this too.
I do have a relic, and it's annoying to feel pigeonholed into the job I have it on. I'd like the ability to try switching to a different class when new stuff comes out and the ilvl cap is raised, but still have relevant gear for progression if I choose to do so.

Exactly. I have Zenith on all my jobs that can have it atm. SCH and SMN are 5 lvls away from getting theirs then it will be MNK's turn. I like the look of the Nexus weapons, they are cool, but I cannot see myself getting 100+ atma for all jobs.

I agree with Raldo that probably new weapons will arrive, but not upgrade from the existent, since new people would have to do two grinds, one for the existent and other for the upgrade. If the first grind is made quick it might be no problem and it would be about the same (more soldiery drop and no weekly cap, and the soldiery weapons will be a piece of cake to get. With no ST cap, Sands of Time would be much easier to get.) New weapons mean more glamour possibilites compared with upgrade and just different colour glow, as somebody said.

As time advances more alternatives have been made. In 2.1 you could do the relic quest (a long grind of many weeks) and get a Zenith weapon or do Coil with weekly lock and win the drop for a better weapon (very difficult win and unlikely drop, few people got it then.) Now you have a third possibility of getting a weapon that is not the best, but is good enough for all content, through soldiery tomes and sands. Great possibility to have.

I think this third possibility will continue to exist, be it through new weapons or upgrading of previous. It seems the last step of the relic will always be a very long grind that you will do with one weapon but not more, unless you have a lot of playing time. Previous steps of the relic will be made easier (like now Zenith can be done in a couple of days) but not the last step. The other classes you play (or if you are not up for the grind, your main class) will have the possibility of another weapon, nearly as good or as good, with also some grind (the great majority of people don't get the last relic upgrade until a long time after it is created.)

Hi Third,

The feeling you're having about your work being invalidated with each big patch is exactly what many have felt for a long time (and we left feedback for the Dev Team during Beta about this):

* This is Vertical Progression.

This is the system Yoshi P has chosen, copying his beloved World of WarCraft's model. :rolleyes:

Your feelings on Gerolt's Weapons is the same feeling many of us have when we earned Armor Drops in 1st Coil and now 2nd Coil:

"It's all going to be invalidated next big patch, sigh." (Every 5 - 6 months.) :(

So I'm glad we're seeing at least *one* thing last between patches (Relics), but it would be nice if Yoshi P and the team introduced just a *bit* more Horizontal Progression (still get New Gear, but same Item Level with Different Stats (e.g., "Increased Enmity" or "Enhances Bloodletter", etc.).

Realistically Gerolt's will be overwritten by Shiva's Weapons and the new Allagan Tomestone of (XYZ), since Yoshi P already talked about it.

Look at all the people who got Leviathan's Wave Weapons. I know plenty of players (myself included) that spammed Leviathan countless times to try and get a Mirror and still no drop.

And it's already invalidated (short-lived).

I hope we get less of a rapid Vertical Progression model in 3.0. For the betterment of XIV.

Yeah but if they slow down vert prog, then people will be sitting around mor doah complaining how they have nothing to do again.

You know SE can't win no matter what they give to people. There will always be people complaining that its not exactly what they personally want.

From what the op says, she basically wants atma, but doesn't want to do the atma questline.
So invalidate everything everyone else has worked for, because she doesn't want to do it, and wants her weapons just as good and super easy to obtain.
Getting the stuff for the GM was extremely easy go hunting for a day and you get a log(s). Go to st get a UAT.

The coil weapons are still better than the Nexus, nexus is just ilvl 115 in name only.

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Originally Posted by kingatlas

The coil weapons are still better than the Nexus, nexus is just ilvl 115 in name only.

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No, only Atma weapons were like that. Nexus are 100% BiS for every job right now.

In my opinion gerolt's weapons are the lazy way out and it wouldn't really be fair for those who actually do work their asses off for a nexus, especially when suddenly everyone runs around with an easier obtainable and equally strong weapon (not like that isn't going to happen pretty soon anyway).

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Originally Posted by kingatlas

Yeah but if they slow down vert prog, then people will be sitting around mor doah complaining how they have nothing to do again.

You know SE can't win no matter what they give to people. There will always be people complaining that its not exactly what they personally want.

From what the op says, she basically wants atma, but doesn't want to do the atma questline.
So invalidate everything everyone else has worked for, because she doesn't want to do it, and wants her weapons just as good and super easy to obtain.
Getting the stuff for the GM was extremely easy go hunting for a day and you get a log(s). Go to st get a UAT.

The coil weapons are still better than the Nexus, nexus is just ilvl 115 in name only.

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Wrong entirely. I have an Atma bow, useless upgrade that it is. What did I do for the original relic? Took on 5 of the biggest challenges of the game (at that time). Was it easy? No. Did it feel worth it once I got the bow? Yes. What did I do for the Atma bow? Fate grind. Was it easy? Yes. Did it feel worth it once I got the bow? No. What I'm saying is that I want a weapon - an alternative to the relic - that I have to work for. Coil/Raid weapons are that, yes, but I'm aware that many can't get them, won't get them, or are completely disinterested in the challenge, if not the weapons. My GM weapon is something I worked for, at least more so than anything post-Zenith. Not HUNTED for. I actually got mine WITHOUT hunting. Hunts haven't given me anything but a minion, and another currency I don't even know what to do with. And most people know I have just as much disdain for the hunt as I do for the relic quest.

Invalidate everything everyone else has worked for? Wanting weapons just as good and super easy to obtain? No. Wrong entirely. I WANT to work for my weapon, at least more than hunting or fate grinding, or spamming/speed-running a single instance because of a bonus window might offer me. Let people have the relic as it is - they can have the long, easy road. I want a challenge, and while I actually LIKE Coil, I', well aware that's the extreme opposite of the long easy Relic road. Primal weapons make sense - you overcome a challenge for the reward. I simply would like GM weapons to be of a similar nature. If I had to beat all the extreme primals (just as an example), guess what? Not only is that good reason to take on the challenge, it's INCENTIVE. Something sorely lacking in the game right now. UATs available in ST? Less incentive to beat SCoB Turn 7, IF you're even up to Second Coil, which sadly many aren't. Sands/Oils available from hunts OR ST, now as guaranteed drops? Again, why bother with SCoB now? Hell, why bother hunting? ST is GUARANTEED. Is it easy? Yes.
Do you perhaps see my issue here? There's little reward for being skilled here - something that the original relic actually stood for. You knew what someone did to get it. Just like a T5/T9 weapon. But what does a Novus weapon say? What does a Nexus weapon say? That this person is good, or that they're simply patient?

Let me clarify: No, I don't want a grind weapon. No, I don't want an easy to obtain weapon. And no, I don't want a weapon that'd require a certain measure of masochism to obtain due to difficulty. But I DO want a challenge. Not for bragging rights, not to stand around in Mor Dhona to show off, I want that feeling of having earned something again, and I want it to be worthwhile. GM weps probably will get replaced, and that's sad. I see it as a missed opportunity if that happens. Not to circumvent or trump those who have the "dedication" to take the long easy road to the relic - which WILL be the best weapon in the game - but simply to provide a scalable, near-comparable alternative. That's all. If a Novus/Nexus weapon says you put in the time, simple efforts, and dedication to achieve it, let the GM/Primal/Future alternative say "I chose to face all seven hells to achieve this. Maybe it took a while, maybe it didn't, but I went to hell and back, and here's MY prize." (This is assuming that Final Coil/Future raid weapons will always be the transient, superior weapon to all.)

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Originally Posted by Trixxy

In my opinion gerolt's weapons are the lazy way out and it wouldn't really be fair for those who actually do work their asses off for a nexus, especially when suddenly everyone runs around with an easier obtainable and equally strong weapon (not like that isn't going to happen pretty soon anyway).

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For the sake of perspective, it may be an apples/oranges thing in terms of base stats, damage, and item level, but (and this is not even including the custom attributes) a Novus weapons is STILL superior to an upgraded Gerolt Masterwork weapon. By that logic, can you say it's lazy to work for a weapon that's still inferior besides? Would you make the same argument that someone who just cleared Turn 9 (WITH a GM weapon) and got a now-inferior-to Nexus High Allagan weapon is lazy?

Let's not kid ourselves here: Relic - if you have time, patience, gil/materia, and the ability to grind something - is practically handed to you. This is NOT me saying it's not worth it or that it doesn't deserve to be so good for what effort goes into it, but this IS me saying that it is in no way a measure of its owner's skill. And with things like the Hunt pretty much boosting players and fast-tracking people to sub-raid level gear, what REALLY ends up happening is we get left with well-geared inexperience. Please note: This is NOT me saying I'm elite/superior or that anyone who clears endgame raids = master race or anything so conceited. But really think about it - how much confidence would you have going into, say Garuda Extreme or even Turn 1, seeing a few nice glowing relic weapons Novus/Nexus, then "One or more players have yet to complete this duty"?

No way to this suggestion. If you want a weapon to be able to upgrade, do the relic.

With that idea in mind, why provide an upgradeable alternative at all? The relic WILL be the absolute best anyways, so then getting a UAT (by any means) isn't really worth it, no? Same goes for Primal weapons; why bother putting forth the effort to overcome that challenge for an inferior weapon anyways?

Why even provide an alternative then? Gameplay staples, yes. There's got to be some kind of reward for doing anything, whether grinding or clearing tougher challenges, right?

Imagine then, if you will, that the expansion perhaps introduces a NEW relic weapon. A Crystal Relic, for example. From the start, it's i130, and base damage is 10 points more than your Relic Weapon Nexus. . . There are no more Relic weapon upgrades, and the Crystal Relic is obtainable through means completely unrelated to your current relic. . . How then would you feel about putting in the time, effort, and dedication to get a Nexus?

This is mainly rhetoric, but this is essentially the issue those who chose the alternative have to deal with. (And I'd like to point out the irony here that most people's advice to those who were unlucky/unhappy with the Zodiac grinds was "get a Soldiery/Primal weapon instead.")

Fact is, if there are no further upgrades to the "alternatives" planned, then they were merely a red herring in the first place. Add to that, any future weapons - upgradeable or not - are essentially little more than glamour items. Transient prizes for whatever challenge you may face to earn them. Coil/endgame raiders, keep in mind that your weapons too will only fall into obscurity, as more time, less effort, and much less difficulty will ALWAYS ultimately produce something superior.

And SE, with Hunts and/or ST providing Sands, Oil, UATs, and whatever tomes will be in circulation at the time, you've effectively invalidated Second Coil and almost all its rewards before you've added it to the Duty Finder.