Craft Mastery: A System for General, Advanced and Master craftsmen

I believe we should be allowed to Rank any and ALL jobs to 50. But when it comes to DoL and DoH jobs you should be required to choose a focus. I would suggest splitting the recipes into different tiers. General Recipes, Advanced Recipes and Master Recipes.

Each character can choose ONE master craft, TWO advanced crafts and can rank every other craft, but it would be considered a general craft. So I could be a Master Culinarian and advanced Alchemist and also an Advanced Carpenter. I would be considered generally skilled in all other crafts. So you are able to rank all the way to 50, but need to make choices of where you are going to specialize.

This could help the market/economy, make it so people need to socialize and work together a bit more. This is an idea I came up with for such a system.

General Craftsman

• Can make all sub components for general gear
• Can make all normal weapons, armor and gear pieces.
• Can occasionally make +1 items (Cannot make +2 or +3).
• Can use common facilities (No use of Guild or Master)
• No access to recipe variations.
• No Dye Access.
• No Materia Access.
• No Lounge Access

Advanced Craftsman

• Can make all sub components for general gear
• Can make all general weapons, armor and gear pieces.
• can make all advanced weapons, armor and gear pieces.
• Can occasionally make +1 and +2 items (Cannot make +3).
• Can use common & Guild facilities (No use of Master)
• Can use two recipe variations
• Can access a limited amount of dying options.
• Can access a limited amount of materia for crafting.
• Can access the Advanced Lounge (No Master Lounge)
• Can optionally stamp an item with your characters name

Master Craftsman

• Can make all sub components for general gear
• Can make all general weapons, armor and gear pieces.
• Can make all advanced weapons, armor and gear pieces.
• Can make all master weapons, armor and gear pieces.
• Can make +1 and occasionally +2 items and rarely +3 items
• Can use facilities
• Can use three recipe variations
• Can access all dying options.
• Can access all materia for crafting
• Can access style options.
• Can access Advanced & Master Lounges
• Can optionally stamp an item with your characters name and also with a MASTER tag.

General Gear/Recipes: Refers to any current gear in-game that does not require special NM/Quest drop items to craft. Also note that general gear would be stripped of color variety, it would only come in one color/style.

Advanced Gear/Recipes: A new set of recipes introduced into the game. Would allow access to 2-4 color variations, use of limited materia to customize the items stats and no use of style options.

Master Gear/Recipes: A new set of recipes introduced into the game as well as the relocating of NM/Quest drop ingredients recipes to Master recipes only. Would allow access to all color variations, use of all materia to customize the items stats and 2-3 style options for each piece of gear.

Facilities: Facility use would be restricted based on your wheter you were a general crafter, advanced crafter or master crafter in a specific role.

Recipe Variations: Recipe variations would be implemented so that you could create the same item from different recipes/techniques. For example. You could make a fish stew using Tiger Cod, Tomato, Corn and Potato or You could make it using Tiger cod, tomato, green beans and potato or finally using Maiden Carp, potato, black pepper, corn. The final product would be the same, but it would give more options for creating an item.

Dying Options: In this overhauled craft system you would be able to not only dye clothing and armor, but weapons as well.

Materia Options: Access to use the forthcoming materia options to customize equipment more.

Style Options: The ability to choose 2-3 style variations for an visible item. For example. If you created a two bladed axe you could have the handle/hilt be wrapped in dodoskin or perhaps carved from white, blue or red coral. Coupled with dying options it makes more variety for each item.

Lounges: Each crafting guild would have an entree to both an Advanced and Master lounge area. This area would be used for getting quests for new dying options, new style options, access to the proper tier facility use, expanded npc ingredient lists and more. Advanced craftsmen could only access the advanced lounge while Master craftsmen could access both.

Name Stamp: Advanced and Master craftsmen would get to OPTIONALLY tag items they create with their name. Master craftsmen would also have it list them as a master. (Example: Toot McGee Master Culinarian) When viewing an items description this information would appear in the tooltip information.

I like it.

Altho I would allow general craftmen to use the common workshops, the advanced use the guild one and common and the Master craftmen could use any of the 3 workshops.

Edit: I like it because I find this game needs some limiting factor to define a character from the other and this is a good way to do it while also improving the economy.

As long as crafts are touted as full individual classes of their own, this suggestion doesn't really make sense.
Would it make sense if we apply the above to DoW/DoM classes?
i.e. You can only be master one melee class with 2 advanced melee classes as support. A limit will be placed on the cross-class skills you can use or their effectiveness.

By the way, its "dyeing", not "dying". I don't need extra ways to die.

Speaking as someone who is leveling all crafts except cooking... I do not like this idea. I put a lot of work into my crafts and I like the idea that I can make a lot of things with all my own effort. If someone is willing to put in the time and effort into a skill, I think they earn the right to make what they want. Also, for people who have leveled 2 or more classes really high already, this would make a lot of their efforts pointless. Which would be mean. :(

Thinking long-term, this would also limit how flexible your character is. Once you picked which crafts you were focusing on and mastering them, you would have nothing left to work on. What is the point of spending hours and hours leveling a craft that would never allow you to make the best recipes anyway?

People most likely already favor one or two crafts naturally anyway. I may be leveling GLD but I only use it for the occassional 'bronzed' armour or weapon - I don't make jewellery for instance. Crystalliers spend hours breaking crystals, tailors spend hours on clothes, etc... I see no reason to force this.

-1 to this idea... in my own opinion, of course

I'd rather they didn't put mastery in but if they did it better not be permanent, it would screw over a lot of linkshells if it is.

No, dislike. Stop creating these posts. Post in the numerous threads already created on the topic.

It's a new idea, so it makes sense to have a new post. Otherwise, it would just get drowned in the "oh please don't place any limits on me, whatsoever" posts.

I like what you've come up with. +1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tymora

As long as crafts are touted as full individual classes of their own, this suggestion doesn't really make sense.
Would it make sense if we apply the above to DoW/DoM classes?
i.e. You can only be master one melee class with 2 advanced melee classes as support. A limit will be placed on the cross-class skills you can use or their effectiveness.

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From an economic standpoint, and precisely because the classes are touted as full individual classes, this is absolutely necessary.

DoW and DoM have little economic significance, so there is no reason to limit them for that reason.

DoH and DoL do not carry a similar role in the game as DoW and DoM. The latter is restricted from a game mechanical standpoint, the former from a economical standpoint. The actual game mechanics of DoH and DoL are quite meaningless.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

From an economic standpoint, and precisely because the classes are touted as full individual classes, this is absolutely necessary.

DoW and DoM have little economic significance, so there is no reason to limit them for that reason.

DoH and DoL do not carry a similar role in the game as DoW and DoM. The latter is restricted from a game mechanical standpoint, the former from a economical standpoint. The actual game mechanics of DoH and DoL are quite meaningless.

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Indeed.

I posted this thread because there were so many topics specifically moaning about a chance like this. Instead of getting into a flame war over it I figured maybe a new idea on how such a system might work.

At this point I have come to terms that as a DoL main I am going to run into roadblocks because what I do has a direct effect on the economy. I would prefer not to have a 2,500 point pool for catching fish, but its there and I have to accept it. It does help regulate the economy in a good way.

I also joined this game for the ability to play all jobs, but also have come to realize that a system like I suggested, while maybe not best for each player individually is better for the overall life of the game. I think its a fair compromise overall.

Right now the economy is shot and the game is not even in subscription mode, PS3 players and new PC players who come in during the eventual PS3 launch are going to have a hard time of doing much craft wise after getting up in rank a bit.

Your going to have tons and tons of players who have already established themselves as Master Jack of All Trades so that high rank gear will already be saturated by established players and low to mid rank gear will be saturated by all the new players grinding out ranks like maniac's.

Again a system like this may not be best for those individuals who want to rank everything to 50 and be 100% self sufficient all the time. But in the end its better for the economy and for the community as a whole in my opinion.

-1 to this idea

Firstly, I would like to say that I agree with your idea in principle. I feel that some sort of limiting factor does need to implemented into the game to help the economy. If everyone who puts in enough time is able to make everything, then eventually as the game progresses you won't necessarily have to look for a specific crafter to make something that you want, but just any crafter. Furthermore, the current system seems to nullify the reliance on other crafting classes that seems to be an inherent design goal of the system.

That being said, there is something of a unique challenge presented by the mechanics of FFXIV, in that crafters are themselves full fledged classes. Therefore, it is important to make sure that by adding some limiting factor to the game, that we don't remove the appeal of leveling the class entirely. Certainly one could argue that the various crafting abilities, obtained through leveling and purchase, that each class gets could still be worth leveling them, but I think it needs to be deeper than that.

I would suggest the following. First, that the class you choose to master be modifiable in some way (after all you aren't permanently locked into anything else in the game). Second, that the general and advanced level classes you have still contribute in some meaningful way to the one you've mastered (and of course that your generals would still contribute to your advanced as well). This could be accomplished through recipes that require multiple classes (although this option rarely seems to be anyone's favorite). It could also be accomplished by simply allowing the general and advanced classes to make parts used in master recipes. Only the master could put it together, but anyone could make the component pieces.

As a final note, I think that your idea to limit the vanity aspects (color and signature) to the masters is a good one. People will often go to extraordinary lengths to acquire little marks of individuality that have no major impact on their performance, which should lead people to seek the services of the more advanced crafters even without the promise of better gear.

So there's my thoughts on the matter. Hopefully I didn't bore anyone to death.

you can have all DoH to 50 but you are forgetting the stats, if i got 50 cul and 50 bsm, the stats i choose would define whats my MASTER DoH , since i cap lets say MND and PTY for cul, the result for my BSM synth would decrease cause i dont have STR and (idk the other one),
so yeah you will have 2 DOH @50 but one will yield worst results due to stats distribution.


savvy?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yoohre_WildRiver

you can have all DoH to 50 but you are forgetting the stats, if i got 50 cul and 50 bsm, the stats i choose would define whats my MASTER DoH , since i cap lets say MND and PTY for cul, the result for my BSM synth would decrease cause i dont have STR and (idk the other one),
so yeah you will have 2 DOH @50 but one will yield worst results due to stats distribution.


savvy?

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Actually, the stat differences in the classes mainly seem to affect the quality of items that you produce and thus the number of HQs you can turn out. While this does play a significant effect in the economics of the game, it can actually be compensated for pretty handily by the DoW abilities that allow stat re-distributions. Furthermore, while you may produce fewer HQ ALC items if you are statted for BSM, you can still currently produce all of the same items that someone who is statted for ALC could. This is the major issue that the OP is trying to address, forcing people to specialize in order to make sure that every crafter is not capable of producing every item.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yoohre_WildRiver

you can have all DoH to 50 but you are forgetting the stats, if i got 50 cul and 50 bsm, the stats i choose would define whats my MASTER DoH , since i cap lets say MND and PTY for cul, the result for my BSM synth would decrease cause i dont have STR and (idk the other one),
so yeah you will have 2 DOH @50 but one will yield worst results due to stats distribution.

savvy?

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On top of what Amaeo above me said, you forget that they are removing the physical levels. So if DoH are still considered "classes" after their overhaul in the upcoming patches, I would assume that each DoH class you level will let you put the points in the appropriate Stats for each of the classes. So that argument doesn't stand.

Players should be able to rank any and all classes to max rank if they want to.

One of Yoshida's reasons for finally getting rid of fatigue was to "let players play how they want". Limiting crafters like that would go against that principle and cause more problems than it solves, in my view.

There are better ways to deal with the economic issues than this solution.

Vesper, I love all of your ideas, and could propose even more and further ones in the same line.

However, I fundamentally disagree with implementing these ideas via the restrictions that you suggest. Specifically, you state:

Quote:

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Each character can choose ONE master craft, TWO advanced crafts and can rank every other craft, but it would be considered a general craft.

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Why is this a preferred method for limiting what a crafting character can achieve? This is (as was pointed out above) entirely contrary to Yoshi-P's stated desire of "letting players play as they like". Further it doesn't prevent a player from creating multiple characters in order to master multiple crafts. Instead, it caters to those with the wherewithal to pay for additional accounts / characters.

I would propose taking all of your suggestions, and making them individually unlockable abilities via "quests". This replaces the somewhat arbitrary limitation of "you can only master one craft" with "you can only master what you are willing to invest time in".

Example:

One of your recommended attributes relates to HQing of materials/items. You propose General to access only +1, Advanced to +1-2, and Master to +1-3. I feel that this paints too wide a stroke. Simply by achieving 'Master' within a particular craft, you now have access to make +3 items of EVERY item within that craft. Why not restrict to +1 in general, for any item above rank 50. Then create quests that allow Advanced status to a particular class of items / materials -- thus allowing for creation of +2 items, but only for that class of items. Further, it could only unlock for items in the rank 51 to 65 range. Then, allow an additional quest to unlock Master status, allowing for +3, again for the particular class in the particular range.

For items above rank 65, further specialization of item types could occur, again requiring specific quests to unlock access to create +2 and +3 items. This branching factor limits a single player from mastering every single aspect of every single craft, while maintaining the freedom (or illusion of freedom, if you prefer) to choose how to advance your character.

A single character could master different specialized aspects of a myriad of crafts, or could choose to concentrate within a single craft, as the player wishes. Looking over your list, I don't see any feature mentioned that couldn't be purchased via this "a la carte" system rather then lumping them together into "packages" and then placing restrictions on the number of mastered/advanced "packages".

• Advanced and Master Recipes - quest to earn the ability to use these recipes within a recipe set
• Facilities access - quest to unlock access to these facilities for use with higher rank recipes
• Recipe variation - quest to unlock access to recipe variations within a given recipe set
• Dying option - quest to unlock access to re-dying items of a given classification
• etc

As the game evolves, I could foresee this progressing to the point where, at the advanced ranks (around 95 to 99), there could be quests involved to unlock the ability to use a single recipe. At that degree of specialization, the investment would (hopefully) be worth the achievement. If it were to take two days worth of time to unlock such an advanced recipe, and then a further two days each to unlock +2 HQ and +3 HQ for that recipe, that is an investment of 6 days. If there were 20 such recipes per class, representing 160 recipes in total, that adds up to 960 days to master all such recipes - well over 2.5 years. This would be in addition to recipe styles and variations, not to mention playing DoW/M classes or ranking up the DoH class in the first place. However, it retains a sense of individual achievement for each player. An investment of 6 days to be able to create a particular high-rank item is very achievable.

In summary, while I agree with the your ideas, and the need for encouragement of specialization for economic reasons, I don't believe that restricting to a single Mastery is the best way forward.

As a practical matter, my suggestion above could be implemented simply by expanding upon the "skill book training" system already in place. However, rather then simply improving chances of success as with the current training books, at higher rank some synths / results would simply not be possible without the appropriately trained "skill book".

This would allow for the majority of such skills to be metered out through the accrual of guildmarks within the appropriate crafting guild. SE already has in place a mechanism by which skill books are only achievable once a certain rank is acquired. A further extension of this requiring certain skill books to be already bought before a particular later one seems in the realm of the possible.

However, additional sources of skill books are also possible : quests, purchases from Grand Companies -- even rare drops could be added.

This would require an expansion of the crafting skill book UI. Whether that is possible ... I must defer to the experts at SE.

You have some good ideas and I do agree that limiting how many master craft you can have does go against some reason statements made my Mr. Y.

My worry is that things are going to just spiral out of hand and that the economy could be worse off in the end. Let's also look at the fact that DoL's are, just like crafters their own job system. But unlike crafters and war/magic they have hard restrictions.

DoLs can hit a wall and not be able to perform their job, at all, they will get zero mined items, zero lumber and zero catches at some point. They are a full fledged job as well. I have come to terms with this and many others have (many also havent). But I feel if DoLs who have a big impact on the economy have some restrictions that DoH who also have a huge impact on the economy need to be regulated a bit, not only for fairness, but just for the overall health of the economy.

Anyways, my ideas are just suggestions. Thoughts I had at the time, I am always welcome to other viewpoints. My hope is not that the dev team loves every single idea I post, but at least takes them to heart and sees if there is anything here that makes sense for them to implement. Or perhaps if not implement at least help spark something of their own that will help in the 'taming' of the economy.

I do like your ideas about questing for recipes. But I also think that their really needs to be some sort of system to make Joe, Ted, Theodore, Beavis and Monroe.. all who have every craft at rank 50 be different from each other in some way. If everyone is always making the same thing, really the market is just always going to be overflooded and after the initial release of new items/recipes the prices will plummet to be mostly worthless.

Perhaps taking your ideas for questing for recipes and masteries we can implement a path system. sort of like 'Advanced Crafting Jobs' where you make a job within a job. A mastery path, so for instance a carpenter could specialize in boat making, weapon making, furniture making etc. This becomes a CHOICE rather than a restriction.

Thanks for actually taking the time to discuss it civil like,versus zomg I no likely -1!

So i like the ideas here in general because I do believe that such specialization helps the economy. However, one of the driving forces behind my decision to play FF over other MMO is the fact that I only need character, and I can do everything. I was extremely disappointed in 11 when I learned that I would not be able to master all crafts. I very much wanted to wear a full set of HQ gear, made by me, signed by me. I take pride in being able to do things like for myself.

Really, it comes down to this: Why should we limit content to anyone? More content is more to do (even if it is more of the same).

Should it be easy? Nah. I'd be totally happy with hard to acquire books, quests needed to learn a recipe before you can make it, or any other number means by which you can limit the ease of mastering everything. However, it should not be impossible to do it. I -want- to do it all.

Should we also make it so that you can only master one DoW? or one DoM?

I think instead we should look at emulating DoW/DoM in some ways, perhaps by making some of the abilities for DoH class-specific. How about a Preserve 2 that can only be used in-class? Or a new ability that lets you get a better chance on output quantity on materials - but is only useable by Arm/Bsm (say to allow mass production of nuggets and/or ingots at the expense of being able to output HQ).

I guess what I am getting at is that the theory is nice, however it ruins, for me at least, part of the fun of the game, and there are lots of other ways to encourage specialization without ruining the core ability to play anything and everything.